Why preach the gospel?

[mkgal1]

Sinning believers are no longer saved

So....in staying with using 1st Cor 3 as our example.....since this is addressed to those in the church of Corinth.....Paul is addressing "unsaved" people here? Can you maybe elaborate on what you mean by "saved"? What we know about these people is that they were guilty of jealousy and quarreling...and being "merely human". So.....you're saying that's a criteria for "losing one's salvation"?

 

[Oldmantook]

The verse I cited (Luke 23:34 - Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”) doesn't undermine my belief. You may have a different interpretation than I do....but it goes along with my belief that we are to forgive others as we have been forgiven (with grace...not a closed heart).

It shouldn't undermine your belief. Does God ask more of us than he has not done himself? Since we are commanded to forgive, didn't Jesus set the ultimate example for us by forgiving those responsible his crucifixion?

What you seem to be suggesting with this post (and your argument that forgiveness begins with repentance) is that God is expecting us to be more forgiving than He is (as if He's waiting for us to forgive before He's willing to extend forgiveness to us). Wouldn't that be putting the power on US (not Him)? IOW.....if the whole forgiveness process is to be dependent upon our repentance.....the whole power would be within our control (not God's). Also -something that complicates this even more- is what if everyone we need to forgive isn't acknowledging or repenting their tresspasses against us? It all gets clogged up, doesn't it?

Incorrect. Since God has graciously bestowed forgiveness upon us, he expects and commands that we forgive others. Isn't Matt 6:15 crystal clear to you? I'm not "suggesting it" as Jesus "commands it." You can ignore Jesus' command if you want. Unforgiveness is a sin is it not? So what happens when you sin? Do you repent or not repent of it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think your error is that you believe that once a person becomes a Christian, repentance is not necessary which is heretical. Doesn't the Lord's Prayer contain the sentence that says forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us? It is a statement asking God to forgive us, AS WE FORGIVE OTHERS.

My whole faith was deconstructed and re-constructed a few years ago.....and part of what was left in the rubble (and not used for reconstruction) was the whole "say a prayer of forgiveness in order to be saved". I believe now that we were "saved" when Christ demonstrated His love for us.....it's a process for us to then respond to that -as we absorb what that means- in how we live (as we learn to love others as God loves them).

How we live is exactly right - not just saying some sort of "magical" prayer. Even the demons believe but they don't obey God. How we live in obedience (or disobedience) is crucial. So I ask you again, if we harbor unforgiveness and don't forgive others and as we are commanded to, are we still forgiven??

 

[mkgal1]

Ironically, your verse citation undermines your belief. Didn't Jesus himself command us to forgive others?So it should not be surprising when Jesus asks the Father to forgive those who crucified him. But you neglect to note that Jesus also warned us about NOT FORGIVING others: "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:15
Contrary to your claim, forgiveness is not automatic is it?

Then I responded with:

The verse I cited (Luke 23:34 - Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”) doesn't undermine my belief. You may have a different interpretation than I do....but it goes along with my belief that we are to forgive others as we have been forgiven (with grace...not a closed heart).

It shouldn't undermine your belief. Does God ask more of us than he has not done himself? Since we are commanded to forgive, didn't Jesus set the ultimate example for us by forgiving those responsible his crucifixion?

I'm giving up for now. I just can't seem to follow what your points are.

 

[Oldmantook]

Then I responded with:

​

I'm giving up for now. I just can't seem to follow what you're points are.

Do we both agree or not - that it boils down to "how we live" which I'm quoting your words. Do we obey God or not? And if we choose to not repent and remain disobedient, are we still saved? If we do not forgive others, will God still forgive us? It seems like simple questions to me.

 

[ClementofA]

I'm watching The Special Salvation of Believers -he's kind of funny Thanks for sharing (so far, I'm in agreement with him). If THIS were the gospel that was shared (and lived out).....think of how much better this world would be right now (eventually......people will get there, I believe....there's a lot of ego to be shed).

ETA: I got to the part where he began speaking of the millennial reign. I'm of the a millennial belief (so I disagree with him there).

Yes, he's often quite funny, & down to earth. He's what we might call a Calvinistic Universalist, while most Universalists are, like those in the early church fathers, of the Free Will viewpoint. I'm quite far from agreeing with him about everything.

 

[ClementofA]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a Christian Universalist?

I am.

Sinning believers are no longer saved, (I don't believe in eternal security/OSAS) therefore they go to the lake of fire to become saved again. If one protests claiming that it is not possible to be saved again and made spiritually alive again, then study the parable of the prodigal son. In that passage, Jesus twice repeats that the prodigal was dead but is ALIVE AGAIN. How can someone be made alive AGAIN. It certainly does not refer to physical death as the prodigal did not physically die. The only way to become spiritually alive AGAIN is for someone to become saved, then like the prodigal engage in a lifestyle of unrepentant sin. However upon repentance and returning to the Father, that spiritually dead person is made ALIVE AGAIN. In the same way, a believer whose life is marked by disobedience is sent to the LOF for an unknown age of time but eventually will be reconciled to God. Those who were never saved in this life are also relegated to the LOF where they too will eventually be reconciled to God after chastisement.

I had never considered the prodigal son story that way before. It seems you make some good points.

No believer's works will be entirely perfect. The only perfect life and works on the earth was Jesus'. Obedience is the dividing line between those who go to the LOF and those who don't. Heb 5:9 states: "and having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all those obeying Him," Thus believers who chronically and habitually disobey God do not have eternal life.

Do the sinning believers who go to the lake of fire (LOF) still have faith while they "chronically and habitually disobey God"? Is it a saving faith as per Rom.10:9-10? If they have saving faith & are saved, how can they go to the lake of fire? Or have they lost saving faith of the heart & have merely mental assent? Or is it they cease to confess "Jesus is Lord", or make Him the Lord of their life? And have therefore lost salvation?

9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For in the heart is belief unto righteousness, and in the mouth is confession unto salvation.

The reward is the "better resurrection." However if a believer does not gain the prize of the better resurrection, it does not automatically mean that that believer goes to the lake of fire.

What characteristics or criteria differentiate a believer who (1) goes to the LOF & a believer (2) who obtains the "better resurrection" from (3) the believer who is judged at the great white throne?

A believer who does not attain to the first/better resurrection is judged at the second resurrection or great white throne judgment.
It is commonly taught that only the unsaved dead are resurrected at this great white throne judgment however a couple of scriptures reveals that this is likely not the case as the saved dead also stand in judgment at that same time. Jn 5:28-29 Jesus himself stated: 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus cites a specific hour (singular) in which ALL those in the tombs will be resurrected - both the "good" and the "evil." The Apostle Paul confirms the same thing when he stated: "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15). Paul referred to a [singular] resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked which parallels Jesus' statement. At the GWT judgment the dead are judged according to "what they had done" (their works). This includes those believers who did not qualify for the exanastasis/first resurrection. At this time their works - or lack of works - determine whether their names are written in the book of life.

Yes, to your first question. A believer who loses his salvation is by definition someone who is now unsaved. Essentially, not only are they no better than those who were never saved, they are worse off. Hebrews 10:29 states "How much worse punishment do you think will he deserve, the one having trampled upon the Son of God, and having esteemed ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and having insulted the Spirit of grace?" The Greek word for "worse punishment" is timoria which is only used this one-time in all of the NT. This is is diffent from the word "kolasis" which is also translated as punishment which lends me to believe that timoria for the unsaved former believer is worse than kolasis for the unbeliever.

If 1 Cor.3:15 teaches that the worst sinners will be saved, then should it be considered a proof text in support of universalism?

I believe they are different for the following reasons. The fire referred to in v.13 shall reveal every man's work on the day in which every man's work is tested to determine if he shall receive a reward in v.14. The purpose of this fire is reveal whether the believer receives his/her reward (v.14). However notice in v.15 that the fire referred to in this verse is not for reward but in order to be saved/salvation. He shall suffer loss (of reward/first resurrection) but himself shall be saved, yet so by fire (in the LOF). One fire to test for reward. The other fire for the purpose of chatisement/punishment in the LOF yet he shall be saved.

Well said. And thanks again for your detailed replies.

 

[Oldmantook]

I had never considered the prodigal son story that way before. It seems you make some good points.

Yes, the way that parable is taught always focuses on the father's abundant mercy and forgiveness, which is of course true. However, we both know that when Jesus repeats something while teaching, he is emphasizing an important point and often times the main point of his teaching - especially when he concludes the parable with that phrase. So when he refers to the prodigal as "dead and is alive again" in Lk 15:24 & 32 we need to focus and ponder what Jesus meant by that. Thus my belief that we believers belonging to the household of God can wander away like the prodigal via habitual sin and become spiritually dead but upon genuine repentance, turn back to God and receive his forgiveness and be made alive again. Tragically, I don't think this parable and its implications is correctly taught by most pastors/teachers.

Do the sinning believers who go to the lake of fire (LOF) still have faith while they "chronically and habitually disobey God"? Is it a saving faith as per Rom.10:9-10? If they have saving faith & are saved, how can they go to the lake of fire? Or have they lost saving faith of the heart & have merely mental assent? Or is it they cease to confess "Jesus is Lord", or make Him the Lord of their life? And have therefore lost salvation?
9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For in the heart is belief unto righteousness, and in the mouth is confession unto salvation.

I don't believe a believer can afford to "sit on the fence" and straddle sin. The prodigal son chronically and habitually disobeyed the father by pursuing a lifestyle of sin and thus in the parable he is described as being DEAD. He certainly wasn't physically dead so the only way he was dead is spiritually dead. The apostle Paul warned of the same thing to the brethren in Rome where he warned them: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:13). Again, Paul cannot be referring to physical death here because every single person dies physically - no matter how they conduct their lives. According to Paul, IF the believer lives according to his flesh; sows to the flesh instead of the Spirit, he/she will spiritually die.

In my opinion, the gospel message of salvation has been corrupted. We are quick to evangelize people with John 3:16 but when is the last time you heard someone quote Heb 5:9 in evangelization? One must both BELIEVE AND OBEY God but we emphasize the former while neglecting the latter. Both are required for eternal life. Israel though God's chosen people, was condemned by God because of their disobedience but many Christians today believe they will get a "free pass" in spite of their disobedience. They have been taught that they cannot lose their salvation - at most only their rewards.

What characteristics or criteria differentiate a believer who (1) goes to the LOF & a believer (2) who obtains the "better resurrection" from (3) the believer who is judged at the great white throne?

That's the million dollar question isn't it? The characteristics of people who are said to have obtained the better resurrection were those who literally gave up their lives in Heb 11:35 and Rev 20:4. I don't think that it means that we have to all be martyrs for the faith as Mary stated to Jesus in Jn 11:24 that her brother Lazarus "will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." As far as I know Lazarus was not a martyr.
Other than that, I can only speculate what differentiates a believer who attains to the first resurrection vs. another believer who is judged at the great white throne. Both the righteous and the unrighteous are said to be judged by their works. The most I can say is that the works of the saved righteous were not enough to warrant receiving the prize of the first resurrection. And I suppose that is the reason why those Hebrew women refused their release - in order to assure that their sufferings for Christ would assure them of the better resurrection.

If 1 Cor.3:15 teaches that the worst sinners will be saved, then should it be considered a proof text in support of universalism?

In its context that verse refers to believers so it doesn't specifically say that all will be saved. At the most based on that verse, it states that those former believers will be saved yet so as though fire which I believe refers to the lake of fire. I think all will be saved has to be derived from the other verses in Scripture.

Well said. And thanks again for your detailed replies.

You're welcome.

 

[RDKirk]

So now, who has the better score when it comes to making disciples in all nations, Calvinists or Armenians?

 

[ClementofA]

So now, who has the better score when it comes to making disciples in all nations, Calvinists or Armenians?

Or the early church universalists:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/

 

[ClementofA]

In its context that verse refers to believers so it doesn't specifically say that all will be saved. At the most based on that verse, it states that those former believers will be saved yet so as though fire which I believe refers to the lake of fire. I think all will be saved has to be derived from the other verses in Scripture.

If even "former believers" are to be saved, & these are the worst sinners (cf. Heb.6:4-6; 10:26-29), how could it be that all other lessor sinners would not also be saved?

If the timoria punishment (Heb.10) is worse than the kolasis punishment (Mt.25), then shouldn't both be saved if the former shall be saved?

If even sinning unsaved ex-believers are, according to 1 Cor.3:15, to be saved postmortem after they are cast into the LOF, does that include those such as 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to, who have been given over to Satan to be corrected in this life? Such had built upon the foundation of Christ referred to in 1 Cor. 3.

Does 1 Cor.3:15 include the immoral such as those in 1 Cor.5:4-5, who was also given over to Satan for the purpose of salvation? Or those referred to in:

Gal.5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Heb. 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

1 Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Pet. 2:20 If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through their knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them.…

Ezek. 33:13
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but he then trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, then none of his righteous works will be remembered; he will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

Col.1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence — 23 if indeed you continue in your faith,...

Lk.8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...a-test-now-what.8067612/page-24#post-72796639

 

[Oldmantook]

If even "former believers" are to be saved, & these are the worst sinners (cf. Heb.6:4-6; 10:26-29), how could it be that all other lessor sinners would not also be saved?

If the timoria punishment (Heb.10) is worse than the kolasis punishment (Mt.25), then shouldn't both be saved if the former shall be saved?

You could say that - especially since we both believe all will be saved. However I was going by a strict interpretation of what the passage states - not what it doesn't state which would be drawing an inference. A person who believes in OSAS would point to the same passage and say "see here it says that the believer is once saved always saved" - but not see that this passage is talking about a believer actually becoming lost and now having to pass through the lake of fire. That same person would certainly not draw the conclusion that the unsaved are saved by referencing this passage. So in essence, I agree with you but many others would not, just based upon this passage alone.

If even sinning unsaved ex-believers are, according to 1 Cor.3:15, to be saved postmortem after they are cast into the LOF, does that include those such as 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to, who have been given over to Satan to be corrected in this life? Such had built upon the foundation of Christ referred to in 1 Cor. 3.

Yes, although I think Hymenaeus and Alexander were probably given over to Satan when they were still alive and not yet dead. So unsure if they returned to the faith while still alive and were taught the lesson not to blaspheme.

Does 1 Cor.3:15 include the immoral such as those in 1 Cor.5:4-5, who was also given over to Satan for the purpose of salvation?

I think 1 Cor 3:15 refers to postmortem fire/LOF whereas 1 Cor 5:4-5 refers to the delivering over to Satan in this present life as indicated by "may be saved in the day of the Lord." I believe this phrase refers to the day of Jesus' return to earth/2nd Coming. So the person is delivered to Satan in this life (not postmortem) for the purpose of repentance from sin in order that he/she may be saved when Jesus returns.

To summarize my position. The Bible refers to the eventual salvation of all. Some including ex-believers will have to go to the lake of fire along with the unsaved, in order to become eventually reconciled to God. Those who are saved though, still have the choice whether to be saved "in the day of the Lord" which is synonymous with the "last day." "second coming", "first resurrection," "exanastasis," etc. OR to be saved at the second resurrection where the believer will be judged for his works or lack thereof. The goal of every believer is not simply salvation but to rule/reign with Christ during the Millennium but when is the last time you or I heard that preached in any church? I think we have dumbed-down what the goal and purpose of the Christian life is supposed to be and thus we have an apathetic church no longer capable of changing the world (I'm not excluding myself from this indictment either). What do you think?

 

[ClementofA]

You could say that - especially since we both believe all will be saved. However I was going by a strict interpretation of what the passage states - not what it doesn't state which would be drawing an inference. A person who believes in OSAS would point to the same passage and say "see here it says that the believer is once saved always saved" - but not see that this passage is talking about a believer actually becoming lost and now having to pass through the lake of fire. That same person would certainly not draw the conclusion that the unsaved are saved by referencing this passage. So in essence, I agree with you but many others would not, just based upon this passage alone.


Yes, although I think Hymenaeus and Alexander were probably given over to Satan when they were still alive and not yet dead. So unsure if they returned to the faith while still alive and were taught the lesson not to blaspheme.


I think 1 Cor 3:15 refers to postmortem fire/LOF whereas 1 Cor 5:4-5 refers to the delivering over to Satan in this present life as indicated by "may be saved in the day of the Lord." I believe this phrase refers to the day of Jesus' return to earth/2nd Coming. So the person is delivered to Satan in this life (not postmortem) for the purpose of repentance from sin in order that he/she may be saved when Jesus returns.

To summarize my position. The Bible refers to the eventual salvation of all. Some including ex-believers will have to go to the lake of fire along with the unsaved, in order to become eventually reconciled to God. Those who are saved though, still have the choice whether to be saved "in the day of the Lord" which is synonymous with the "last day." "second coming", "first resurrection," "exanastasis," etc. OR to be saved at the second resurrection where the believer will be judged for his works or lack thereof. The goal of every believer is not simply salvation but to rule/reign with Christ during the Millennium but when is the last time you or I heard that preached in any church? I think we have dumbed-down what the goal and purpose of the Christian life is supposed to be and thus we have an apathetic church no longer capable of changing the world (I'm not excluding myself from this indictment either). What do you think?

This post by Stan Patton may be of interest:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/1-corinthians-3-15-universal-salvation-in/6171/26

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orth...tice-of-preaching-universalism/#comment-19470