Why people reject the reality of Hell

[wendykvw]

I don't make that assumption. I think the people who hold to universalism do indeed read the Bible, but their interpretation of the Bible is based on not wanting to see God as unfair or unjust rather than what the Bible clearly states.

Again, you are making assumptions, that "their interpretation" of the bible is inferior to your own. The solution according to your opinion is eternal conscience torment or extermination (annihilation) This view (ECT, or Extermination) proclaims the victory of Satan, sin, and wickedness and the defeat of Christ, who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World. The Universalist view teaches Christ is the Victorious and Successful Savior, who as John testifies; The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

1. Calvinism proclaims God only loves the elect.
2. Arminianism claims God only loves those who chose to love Him.
3. Universalism is the only view that proclaims God so loved the world (everyone, not just a few). Universalism does not LIMIT the victory of the Cross and the victory of Jesus Christ who defeated Satan, sin, and wickedness.

1. God is LIMITED In Calvinism, God will choose a few.
2. GOD IS LIMITED In Arminianism, a few will choose God.
3. GOD IS NOT LIMITED IN Universalism God chooses everyone and everyone will choose God.

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us." 1 John 4"18-19

• Calvinism believes people are elected to hell, God does not choose everyone.
• Arminianism teaches God can only redeem you if you love Him first

• In universalism theology, God chooses everyone, and everyone will choose Christ, (Ephesians 1:10 in the fullness of time). Salvation is secured by the Blood of Christ, Justification is secured by Christ, and Sanctification is made complete through the restorative fire. It is a process. But God will complete restoration, from start to finish. Ultimate security is knowing Christ accomplished redemption for all people through His wisdom, and is not defeated by Adam, the devil, or the fallen condition of mankind.

"And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." -Ephesians 1:10

Just to clarify, my mention of the "very faithful" refers to those who are Pastors, missionaries, and scholars. These are not babies of the faith drinking milk but are those who have devoted their lives to serving God, and the body of believers in Christ Jesus.

As far as mailing a book, it might be best for you to PM when you are ready. It is very clear you are not open at this time, or rather as you say it is "a low priority".

 

[All Becomes New]

Again, you are making assumptions, that "their interpretation" of the bible is inferior to your own. The solution according to your opinion is eternal conscience torment or extermination (annihilation) This view (ECT, or Extermination) proclaims the victory of Satan, sin, and wickedness and the defeat of Christ, who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World. The Universalist view teaches Christ is the Victorious and Successful Savior, who as John testifies; The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

1. Calvinism proclaims God only loves the elect.
2. Arminianism claims God only loves those who chose to love Him.
3. Universalism is the only view that proclaims God so loved the world (everyone, not just a few). Universalism does not LIMIT the victory of the Cross and the victory of Jesus Christ who defeated Satan, sin, and wickedness.

1. God is LIMITED In Calvinism, God will choose a few.
2. GOD IS LIMITED In Arminianism, a few will choose God.
3. GOD IS NOT LIMITED IN Universalism God chooses everyone and everyone will choose God.

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us." 1 John 4"18-19

• Calvinism believes people are elected to hell, God does not choose everyone.
• Arminianism teaches God can only redeem you if you love Him first

• In universalism theology, God chooses everyone, and everyone will choose Christ, (Ephesians 1:10 in the fullness of time). Salvation is secured by the Blood of Christ, Justification is secured by Christ, and Sanctification is made complete through the restorative fire. It is a process. But God will complete restoration, from start to finish. Ultimate security is knowing Christ accomplished redemption for all people through His wisdom, and is not defeated by Adam, the devil, or the fallen condition of mankind.

"And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." -Ephesians 1:10

Just to clarify, my mention of the "very faithful" refers to those who are Pastors, missionaries, and scholars. These are not babies of the faith drinking milk but are those who have devoted their lives to serving God, and the body of believers in Christ Jesus.

As far as mailing a book, it might be best for you to PM when you are ready. It is very clear you are not open at this time, or rather as you say it is "a low priority".

You have strawmanned the Calvinists.

 

[wendykvw]

@Jesse Dornfeld,


Also, you might familiarize yourself with the current debate, and conversation, among the body of believers, scholars, and pastors, who are discussing the contention of re-thinking hell. The conference "re-thinking hell" is held ea. year presenting each of the views: Eternal Conscience torment, Annihilation, and Restoration.

Also, you may also educate your understanding of the differences between Christian theological perspectives. Links below. Sponsored by non-universalist ministries.

1. Across the Spectrum
2. Category: Conference | Rethinking Hell
3. Rethinking Hell Conference – Evangelical Christian Conference on Hell

 

[wendykvw]

You have strawmanned the Calvinists.

Calvinists are a lot closer to Universalism than Lutherans. In fact, the majority of those who convert to Universalism are former Calvinist Pastors.

• Jon Bonda for instance, https://www.amazon.com/One-Purpose-God-Doctrine-Punishment/dp/0802841864
• Peter Hiett in Denver, Co Our Theological Distinctive — The Sanctuary Denver

 

[wendykvw]

Calvins Tulip: Keep in mind John Calvin had people burned alive for not agreeing with his doctrinal assertion. Notice the atonement is limited.

• The total depravity of man
• Unconditional election
• Limited atonement
• Irresistible grace
• Perseverance of the saints

Compare with the Universalist version of Tulip

• Total reconciliation
• Unlimited atonement
• LOVE
• Irresistible grace through the ages
• Perseverance of God

HEll-Bound Documentary, All Views Represented:
Does Hell Exist? If So, Who Ends Up There, And Why? - Hellbound the Movie

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Calvanism/Armenianism

 

[All Becomes New]

Calvinists are a lot closer to Universalism than Lutherans. In fact, the majority of those who convert to Universalism are former Calvinist Pastors.

• Jon Bonda for instance, https://www.amazon.com/One-Purpose-God-Doctrine-Punishment/dp/0802841864
• Peter Hiett in Denver, Co Our Theological Distinctive — The Sanctuary Denver

That is wholly irrelevant to the fact that you have straw manned the Calvinist position.

 

[Hmm]

That is wholly irrelevant to the fact that you have straw manned the Calvinist position.

So you keep saying but I don't see it. Perhaps you can quote her where she has misrepresented Calvanism? Or perhaps you can't

 

[All Becomes New]

So you keep saying but I don't see it. Perhaps you can quote her where she has misrepresented Calvanism? Or perhaps you can't

They assume that Calvinists believe God hates people who are not elect. Can they quote a Calvinist who says that? Because I know Calvinists who believe God does not "hate" the non-elect, that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and all these other things that are assumed is what Calvinists believe.

 

[wendykvw]

That is wholly irrelevant to the fact that you have straw manned the Calvinist position.

Sure feel free to share your representation of Calvinism. The only difference between a Universalist, and a Calvinist is the Atonement, Calvin LIMITS the atonement to the elect, and universalism does not. The atonement is UNLIMITED within the Universalist TULIP model.

 

[Hmm]

They assume that Calvinists believe God hates people who are not elect. Can they quote a Calvinist who says that? Because I know Calvinists who believe God does not "hate" the non-elect, that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and all these other things that are assumed is what Calvinists believe.

If God creates a class of people, the Reprobates, who are fated to go to hell, as you believe it to be, whatever they do or believe because Jesus didn't die for their sins but only the sins of the Elect (this is the Limited Atonement 'L' in the Calvanist TULIP), it's a pretty safe assumption to say that God hates them. Or do you think this is love? So, where are the straw man arguments you keep accusing her of?

 

[wendykvw]

They assume that Calvinists believe God hates people who are not elect. Can they quote a Calvinist who says that? Because I know Calvinists who believe God does not "hate" the non-elect, that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and all these other things that are assumed is what Calvinists believe.

There are different versions of Calvinism.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I don't make that assumption. I think the people who hold to universalism do indeed read the Bible, but their interpretation of the Bible is based on not wanting to see God as unfair or unjust rather than what the Bible clearly states. For example, how can there be "more faithful" people in universalism? Shouldn't the logical conclusion of universalism be that we are all equal before God? IMO, universalism is worse than the Free Grace movement which some of that movement believe that someone can be saved even if they later reject Jesus.

Back in 2014 I was aware of damnation, annihilation and reconciliation...and was a bit confused. I decided to consider each as a theory and see in the Bible which was more compatible with the data (Biblical text). I read an ordinary KJV from cover to cover, making notes that grew into a book.

My most basic conclusion is that "Hell" is an insertion from paganism and is not a good translation for any of the four words it is used to replace in the text.

Based on this foundation, damnation failed as a theory for lack of support.

Annihilation failed as well, for lack of support in the text. There were a few indicators, but nothing convincing, at least for me.

Although I was trying to avoid bias in my research, universal reconciliation won out, partly on the realization that God is both willing and able to save all. Calvinism and Arminianism fell by the wayside as well.

 

[All Becomes New]

Back in 2014 I was aware of damnation, annihilation and reconciliation...and was a bit confused. I decided to consider each as a theory and see in the Bible which was more compatible with the data (Biblical text). I read an ordinary KJV from cover to cover, making notes that grew into a book.

My most basic conclusion is that "Hell" is an insertion from paganism and is not a good translation for any of the four words it is used to replace in the text.

Based on this foundation, damnation failed as a theory for lack of support.

Annihilation failed as well, for lack of support in the text. There were a few indicators, but nothing convincing, at least for me.

Although I was trying to avoid bias in my research, universal reconciliation won out, partly on the realization that God is both willing and able to save all. Calvinism and Arminianism fell by the wayside as well.

That is why I bring up Lazarus and the Rich Man. There is no denying what the plain reading of the text is. You have to do a ton of mental gymnastics to get that passage to mean something that is not plainly said. The word used here is "Hades" which is literally an aspect of the afterlife.

 

[Saint Steven]

Keep in mind what I said about Jesus teaching in a way that some/most would not understand. ...

Wouldn't that make of more importance everything else in the story?

Why even assume that Jesus was teaching here about "hell"? The correct word, according to the note on verse 23 in my KJV, was "hades." Now "Hades" is not only a pagan Greek concept, but it is also the name of the Greek "god" of that place. Why would Jesus the Christ, Creator of the universe and Lord of everything in it, utter the name of a pagan "god" He told us not to ever speak of? Yeah, sorry, I had to bring it up to explain it.

I didn't think of it as "hell", but that may depend on which definition we use.

I take it to mean the Realm of the Dead. Hades, if you will. Is there another name for it?

Many interesting aspects about the realm of the dead.
Lazarus was carried by angels to "heaven". ???
The Rich Man died and was buried. Entered a place of "torment".

Those on one side are in torment and in want. (thirsty)
In a state of mind to have a coherent conversation with Abraham.
Burning people aren't very good conversationalists.

 

[Lazarus Short]

That is why I bring up Lazarus and the Rich Man. There is no denying what the plain reading of the text is. You have to do a ton of mental gymnastics to get that passage to mean something that is not plainly said. The word used here is "Hades" which is literally an aspect of the afterlife.

I answered the story of Laz and the Rich Man in post #288 on page 15 of this thread. No mental gymnastics were used, just a different interpretation. "Hades" is a pagan Greek word, hardly worthy of being in Scripture, especially as it is also the name of the supposed Greek "god" of the place. "Hades" was the first step toward the false doctrine of "Hell," by way of the Latin "Infernum."

 

[All Becomes New]

Sure feel free to share your representation of Calvinism. The only difference between a Universalist, and a Calvinist is the Atonement, Calvin LIMITS the atonement to the elect, and universalism does not. The atonement is UNLIMITED within the Universalist TULIP model.

How am I to represent every iteration of Calvinism?

I have my own view on Soteriology after giving it much thought. Would you prefer to talk about Calvinists or the view of the person you are engaging with? I do not believe you can convince me of your view, just so we are clear. The reason for this is simple: Universalism makes the final judgment completely irrelevant.

 

[Saint Steven]

For example, how can there be "more faithful" people in universalism? Shouldn't the logical conclusion of universalism be that we are all equal before God? IMO, universalism is worse than the Free Grace movement which some of that movement believe that someone can be saved even if they later reject Jesus.

This assumes that salvation is something we do, instead of what God/Jesus has ALREADY done.

This scripture states twice that there were only two men involved in our salvation. The first Adam and the Second Adam.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[All Becomes New]

I answered the story of Laz and the Rich Man in post #288 on page 15 of this thread. No mental gymnastics were used, just a different interpretation. "Hades" is a pagan Greek word, hardly worthy of being in Scripture, especially as it is also the name of the supposed Greek "god" of the place. "Hades" was the first step toward the false doctrine of "Hell," by way of the Latin "Infernum."

Jesus used the word hades so you are quite wrong unless you put your understanding of hell and the afterlife above that of Christ.

 

[All Becomes New]

This assumes that salvation is something we do, instead of what God/Jesus has ALREADY done.

This scripture states twice that there were only two men involved in our salvation. The first Adam and the Second Adam.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

It does not necessarily entail that it is something we do. That simply cannot be deduced from what I said.