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Why people reject the reality of Hell

wendykvw

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Feel free to exeget this. Good luck, you are going to need it.

Luke 16:23 NAS20
““And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms.””
I am conflicted of this verse. Some believe the rich man represents Israel and their pride, arrogance and unwillingness to help the less fortunate. The same message as described in Matt 25:44-46.

Another view is intermediate punishments. Notice Jesus is consistent either way, lacking love and compassion for others is a serious trespass for even so called "belivers" they too are warned they could find themselves in the fires. For a Universalist the fire represents purification, and the removal of all unrighteousness.
 
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I am conflicted of this verse. Some believe the rich man represents Israel and their pride, arrogance and unwillingness to help the less fortunate. The same message as described in Matt 25:44-46.

Another view is intermediate punishments. Notice Jesus is consistent either way, lacking love and compassion for others is a serious trespass for even so called "belivers" they too are warned they could find themselves in the fires. For a Universalist the fire represents purification, and the removal of all unrighteousness.

You are kinda divorcing yourself from the plain straightforward reading of the text with both interpretations don't you think?
 
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wendykvw

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You are kinda divorcing yourself from the plain straightforward reading of the text with both interpretations don't you think?
How so? What is your solution?
 
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Lazarus Short

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You are kinda divorcing yourself from the plain straightforward reading of the text with both interpretations don't you think?

If I may interject, keep in mind that Jesus the Christ told His disciples that He taught in parables so that most folks would MISS the true meaning. On the other hand, He taught the disciples plainly.

Also, keep in mind what John the Baptist said, that Jesus was the Lamb that took away the sin of the world...not the sinners of the world.
 
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wendykvw

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If I may interject, keep in mind that Jesus the Christ told His disciples that He taught in parables so that most folks would MISS the true meaning. On the other hand, He taught the disciples plainly.

Also, keep in mind what John the Baptist said, that Jesus was the Lamb that took away the sin of the world...not the sinners of the world.
Please share your thoughts on the passage in Luke.
 
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Saint Steven

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@Jesse Dornfeld this video gives an amazingly unbiased biblical view of all three doctrines of the final judgment. All three views have biblical support, and all three are in conflict with the other two. So, we should expect that.

 
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Saint Steven

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You are kinda divorcing yourself from the plain straightforward reading of the text with both interpretations don't you think?
I believe it's a story, not a parable. Lazarus is probably a real person that the listeners know. The rich man is unnamed. Perhaps the listeners can draw their own conclusion about who that represents.

I agree that there are some important aspects in this passage. (assuming)
Compare below. Crossed over?

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Please share your thoughts on the passage in Luke.

Keep in mind what I said about Jesus teaching in a way that some/most would not understand. Now if you are referring to His story on Lazarus and the Rich Man, I think it's like a meme, a photo of two people and some will know who they are and some won't. For those who don't know the two people in the meme, it can still be funny. For those who do know them, deeper understanding is possible. Got it?

I see the Rich Man as the nation of Judah, rich, well-fed, well-favored and clothed in linen (the cloth of the priesthood) and purple (connected to Imperial Rome).

Lazarus, OTOH, is the whole rest of the world, poor in spirit and wanting a few spiritual crumbs off the Rich Man's table, much like the woman in Matthew 15:21-28.

After the "death" of the Rich Man in 70 AD, the positions are reversed, and that is the main message here - the soon coming doom of the Judah nation. One clue is the Rich Man's five brothers, just as the tribe's founder, Judah, had five brothers.

Why even assume that Jesus was teaching here about "hell"? The correct word, according to the note on verse 23 in my KJV, was "hades." Now "Hades" is not only a pagan Greek concept, but it is also the name of the Greek "god" of that place. Why would Jesus the Christ, Creator of the universe and Lord of everything in it, utter the name of a pagan "god" He told us not to ever speak of? Yeah, sorry, I had to bring it up to explain it.
 
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Der Alte

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I am conflicted of this verse. Some believe the rich man represents Israel and their pride, arrogance and unwillingness to help the less fortunate. The same message as described in Matt 25:44-46.
Another view is intermediate punishments. Notice Jesus is consistent either way, lacking love and compassion for others is a serious trespass for even so called "belivers" they too are warned they could find themselves in the fires. For a Universalist the fire represents purification, and the removal of all unrighteousness.
Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..A parable is a specific literary device. The account of Lazarus and the rich man could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.”
A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known. All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identifies 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown/misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not fables, something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to anything in this life.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. For example, at some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin etc.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.
See next post. Re; ECF and Lazarus.
 
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Der Alte

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All five ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.”Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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wendykvw

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Because your interpretations assume the text does not mean what it plainly says.



That the text means what it says.
1.How long have you studied scripture?
2.What are some of your presuppositions?
3.How long have you been a Christian?
4.What species are you human or of divine origins?

Based on those questions will determine the following .
1. Spiritual stage: Newborn, infant or adulthood.
2. Your presuppositions will determine interpretations.
3.Refer back to spiritual stage.
4.Human origins reflects fallible interpetations. Since humans are interpreting scripture, no one with any view can claim superiority or infallibility.

Reality:
For 2,000 yrs. within Christianity there are many denominations, all with many interpretations. Scripture is used through out the history of the church to support eternal hell, annihilation and restoration. All read the same book, the bible. No consensus on any given doctrinal subject. This includes, eschatology, soteriology, ecclesiology etc.

Problem:
Beginning in the early church there have always been varied and differing opinions. There has never been a consensus. No human or denomination is infallible.

Fact: The universalist view does not teach wickedness is rewarded. Universalism teaches that God is unwilling any perish and is willing to wait for all to come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth. God is patient, long-suffering and full of love, mercy, and grace. He has an unlimited supply. He is the great physician, who can heal the blind, cure the sick, and transform the most wayward of all sons, and daughters.
  1. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
  2. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Pt 3:9
3. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 1 Cor 13:11
 
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1.How long have you studied scripture?
2.What are some of your presuppositions?
3.How long have you been a Christian?
4.What species are you human or of divine origins?

Based on those questions will determine the following .
1. Spiritual stage: Newborn, infant or adulthood.
2. Your presuppositions will determine interpretations.
3.Refer back to spiritual stage.
4.Human origins reflects fallible interpetations. Since humans are interpreting scripture, no one with any view can claim superiority or infallibility.

Sounds like an appeal to authority. "I've studied longer than you so I know better."
 
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wendykvw

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Sounds like an appeal to authority. "I've studied longer than you so I know better."
It is an appeal to review your assertions that others who view differently than you are inferior to your interpetations.
 
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It is an appeal to review your assertions that others who view differently than you are inferior to your interpetations.

There are many other factors that one would have to account for than simply those 4.

As I stated originally, I am willing to have my mind changed, I'm just not going to entertain universalism. Both ECT and Annihilationism can make sense of the final judgment while universalism cannot.
 
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wendykvw

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There are many other factors that one would have to account for than simply those 4.

As I stated originally, I am willing to have my mind changed, I'm just not going to entertain universalism. Both ECT and Annihilationism can make sense of the final judgment while universalism cannot.
Yes, based on your presuppositions that you just listed.


You claim you are open but evidently you are satisfied with the ECT or annihilation view. If you are truly open I can send you a book written by myself and my husband or recommend other books from other Pastors, Scholars, etc. Our book is rated 5 stars on Amazon and has made an impact on our Southern Baptist community. Our ministry is predominantly Pastors across all denominational lines, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. Currently a reformation is taking place among the very faithful. I could name names of other ministeries as well. The assumption people make about Universalism is they don't read their Bible or have correct interpetations. This is pure speculation and false.
 
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The assumption people make about Universalism is they don't read their Bible or have correct interpetations.

I don't make that assumption. I think the people who hold to universalism do indeed read the Bible, but their interpretation of the Bible is based on not wanting to see God as unfair or unjust rather than what the Bible clearly states. For example, how can there be "more faithful" people in universalism? Shouldn't the logical conclusion of universalism be that we are all equal before God? IMO, universalism is worse than the Free Grace movement which some of that movement believe that someone can be saved even if they later reject Jesus.
 
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Hmm

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I think the people who hold to universalism do indeed read the Bible, but their interpretation of the Bible is based on not wanting to see God as unfair or unjust rather than what the Bible clearly states.

This is saying that God is unfair and unjust. Is that your intended meaning?
 
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