Why only Christians in a worship team?

[sinfulman]

I've just had a great testimony from a friend who's son has just become a Christian. In Japan, men becoming Christians doesn't happen every day. THis is a momentous day for the Kingdom there. How did he become a Christian? He loved music, was a professional musician and visited his mother's church where the worship team are made up mostly of professional musicians. They welcomed him into the team and he played in services and at worship events over several months. The result, relationships strengthened and became the medium for the gospel in his life. That life is now in the hands of Christ.

Sounds great to me but it brought up a question I wish I'd asked decades ago: Every single worship team I've been part of (and that's about 7 or 8 now in different churches around the world) has insisted that every member of the worship team be a Christian and usually a mature one at that.

Why exactly? What are we scared of?

 

[DanielRB]

Peace, Sinfulman

I've just had a great testimony from a friend who's son has just become a Christian. In Japan, men becoming Christians doesn't happen every day. THis is a momentous day for the Kingdom there. How did he become a Christian? He loved music, was a professional musician and visited his mother's church where the worship team are made up mostly of professional musicians. They welcomed him into the team and he played in services and at worship events over several months. The result, relationships strengthened and became the medium for the gospel in his life. That life is now in the hands of Christ.

Sounds great to me but it brought up a question I wish I'd asked decades ago: Every single worship team I've been part of (and that's about 7 or 8 now in different churches around the world) has insisted that every member of the worship team be a Christian and usually a mature one at that.

Why exactly? What are we scared of?

You bring up an excellent question, made more important by the example you gave.

Here's my take on it:

Would you support having a non-Christian preacher, given that he loves speaking and is an excellent speaker?

Would you support having a non-Christian Sunday School Teacher, provided he loves kids and is really good with them?

How about a Church using a non-Christian counsoler helping the suicidal and those addicted to a sinful (but not illegal) lifestyle?

One might argue that being on the worship team is categorically different than these other examples, because it doesn't involve teaching. This could be an important distinction. On the other end of the spectrum, should a Church insist that only Christian builders and contractors be used in building a new Church building? Should we only buy groceries for a potluck from a Christian grocerier? Should a Church only hire a Christian snow-removal company to plow the parking lot?

Clearly, it would be odd to insist that every ministry to and for the Church must be done by Christians. But I think that there is a distinction between certain types of ministry--preaching, for example, on the one hand, and building a Church building, on the other.

Where does a worship team fit on this?

I guess I feel if it directly relates to the unique distinctive ministry of the Church, it should be performed only by a Christian. Many other groups have public speakers, but no other group preaches the Good News of Jesus Christ but the Church. Many other groups (and they can be good ones) can offer opportunities for musical performance, but no entity other than the Church exists to worship the Triune God. Many groups teach and care for children, but only the Church can offer the gospel to children.

(Please note: I'm using "the Church" in a way that includes so-called "parachurch" organizations.)

Now, it's great that being part of a worship team led someone to Christ. But personally, I think that he would have been led to Christ another way.

And frankly, I would rather worship in a Church were the music was flat and amaturish, if it was being led by those who really love the Lord, then in a Church were the music was professional and mind-blowing, if it was led by those who don't know my Lord.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[talitha]

I agree completely with Daniel. It is very important that there be unity in the spirit on the worship team, and that's impossible when the main concern is not glorifying the Lord.

blessings
tal

 

[Determinedheart]

Peace, Sinfulman



You bring up an excellent question, made more important by the example you gave.

Here's my take on it:

Would you support having a non-Christian preacher, given that he loves speaking and is an excellent speaker?

Would you support having a non-Christian Sunday School Teacher, provided he loves kids and is really good with them?

How about a Church using a non-Christian counsoler helping the suicidal and those addicted to a sinful (but not illegal) lifestyle?

One might argue that being on the worship team is categorically different than these other examples, because it doesn't involve teaching. This could be an important distinction. On the other end of the spectrum, should a Church insist that only Christian builders and contractors be used in building a new Church building? Should we only buy groceries for a potluck from a Christian grocerier? Should a Church only hire a Christian snow-removal company to plow the parking lot?

Clearly, it would be odd to insist that every ministry to and for the Church must be done by Christians. But I think that there is a distinction between certain types of ministry--preaching, for example, on the one hand, and building a Church building, on the other.

Where does a worship team fit on this?

I guess I feel if it directly relates to the unique distinctive ministry of the Church, it should be performed only by a Christian. Many other groups have public speakers, but no other group preaches the Good News of Jesus Christ but the Church. Many other groups (and they can be good ones) can offer opportunities for musical performance, but no entity other than the Church exists to worship the Triune God. Many groups teach and care for children, but only the Church can offer the gospel to children.

(Please note: I'm using "the Church" in a way that includes so-called "parachurch" organizations.)

Now, it's great that being part of a worship team led someone to Christ. But personally, I think that he would have been led to Christ another way.

And frankly, I would rather worship in a Church were the music was flat and amaturish, if it was being led by those who really love the Lord, then in a Church were the music was professional and mind-blowing, if it was led by those who don't know my Lord.

In Christ,

Daniel

I agree with this as well, Good post !

 

[Mask]

I agree too! The worship team is supposed to lead God's people in praise and worship to their God. If He isn't your God, how could you worship and praise Him? It would just be a performance, not true heartfelt worship.

 

[sinfulman]

I agree too! The worship team is supposed to lead God's people in praise and worship to their God. If He isn't your God, how could you worship and praise Him? It would just be a performance, not true heartfelt worship.

but the heavens declare the glory of the Lord don't they... and when a non-believer shows true compassion out of love for someone, does this not glorify God?

Do we have to know God to glorify him?

To turn this on its head, can you praise God and bring him glory without him being your God?

 

[Determinedheart]

but the heavens declare the glory of the Lord don't they... and when a non-believer shows true compassion out of love for someone, does this not glorify God?

Do we have to know God to glorify him?

To turn this on its head, can you praise God and bring him glory without him being your God?

Worship is a lifestyle not a talent you truly worship God and bring glory to His name by how you live your life according to His word, so how could you do this if you don't believe ? You cannot

The bible says "We went forth and healed people in your name and God said but you did not know me " I think this explains how important it is.

 

[talitha]

but the heavens declare the glory of the Lord don't they... and when a non-believer shows true compassion out of love for someone, does this not glorify God?

No, it does not.

To turn this on its head, can you praise God and bring him glory without him being your God?

No.


blessings
tal

 

[sinfulman]

No, it does not.



No.


blessings
tal

So, Tal and Determined, you're saying that there isn't a single Biblical example of a non-believer bringing God glory by the way they live?

... and Tal, I appreciate the response but I think it would help the thread/me more if you gave some more info to back up your, very brief, opinion. Cheers.

 

[talitha]

some scriptures:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. (John 4:23)

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
(Hebrews 11:6)

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
(Romans 12:1)

Mainly you have to understand that the main reason the worship team is in place is NOT to make pretty music. We can go to a Clapton concert or the Philharmonic (depending upon your taste) for that. The main reason the worship team is in place is to praise and thank God, for His lovingkindness is everlasting, and to carry His presence into the hearts of the people. Nonbeleivers cannot do that.

blessings
tal

 

[sinfulman]

bear with me here Talitha but I have lots of questions about what you wrote...

some scriptures:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. (John 4:23)

i thought that this pasage was jesus trying to point out that the ones we think worship god aren't actually the right ones. I thought he mean tthat the way we think is right to worship God is actually not the way that God thinks is right. IOW, the ones we say don't glorify God can actually do so and we might, like the woman in that pasage, actualy judge them for not doing it the right way. Is that a right way of thinking about that?

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
(Hebrews 11:6)

i was talking about glorifying God so i'm not sure if "pleasing' him and glorifying him are the same. Also, before I asked if someone has compassion on somoene out of a heart of love don't they glorify God and you said no. But doens't loving someone out of compassion please God? isn't that what the good samaritan story is about.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
(Romans 12:1)

my bible doesn't have "worship" there. It has service. Still, I'm not sure how this is connected to whether non-Christians can glorify God. COuld you explain?

Mainly you have to understand that the main reason the worship team is in place is NOT to make pretty music. We can go to a Clapton concert or the Philharmonic (depending upon your taste) for that.

in the old testament, wasn't it important that the ones who did the worship in the first tabernacle and temple were good at making music. i think they had to be good didn't they? if the purpose was not to make music, why did they have to be good? I don't know the bible verse for them being good but I remember something about they had to be very skilled or something.

The main reason the worship team is in place is to praise and thank God, for His lovingkindness is everlasting, and to carry His presence into the hearts of the people. Nonbeleivers cannot do that.

okay, i see that nonbelievers cannot carry his presense into the hearts of the people, praise and tahnk God because they don't konw him. The only thing I'm confused about with this is that I don't know how we know that this is the purpose of the worship team from the bible.

Thanks for your patience - I have so many questions!

 

[Randombitsofstring]

I usually don’t browse this section, but the title was posted on the main page and caught my eye. I think it’s wonderful that the members of that church was able to reach out and let that man join their worship team. If only more churches were more open, I think they would see their numbers increase. It’s been my experience that most churches run themselves more like a clique than a group that is truly compassionate.

 

[talitha]

Being compassionate to people is not part of praise and worship. Seeing an increase in the number of people in a building is not the point either. Praise and worship is all about our God.

i thought that this pasage was jesus trying to point out that the ones we think worship god aren't actually the right ones.

Jesus was talking about the fact that the Kingdom of God was at hand, and in the Kingdom of God, praise and worship has less to do with geography than with what spirit the worshipers were of.

i was talking about glorifying God so i'm not sure if "pleasing' him and glorifying him are the same. Also, before I asked if someone has compassion on somoene out of a heart of love don't they glorify God and you said no. But doens't loving someone out of compassion please God? isn't that what the good samaritan story is about.

Actually you asked if a nonChristian has compassion on someone, etc., are they glorifying God, and I answered no. Let me be very clear. There is a big difference in the sight of God between what we do for self-actualization and what we do for His glory, even if it appears to be the same from the outside. As the prophet Isaiah declared, "all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment," apart from Him.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
(Romans 12:1)
I'm not sure how this is connected to whether non-Christians can glorify God.

Do nonChristians present their bodies as a living sacrifice to God? What is worship but glorifying God?

in the old testament, wasn't it important that the ones who did the worship in the first tabernacle and temple were good at making music. i think they had to be good didn't they? if the purpose was not to make music, why did they have to be good? I don't know the bible verse for them being good but I remember something about they had to be very skilled or something.

The minstrels and singers that were selected to lead in the singing and music and train others were good, yes, but they were not singing and making music just to sing and make music.

The main reason the worship team is in place is to praise and thank God, for His lovingkindness is everlasting, and to carry His presence into the hearts of the people. Nonbeleivers cannot do that.

I don't know how we know that this is the purpose of the worship team from the bible.

"No one is to carry the ark of God but the Levites; for the LORD chose them to carry the ark of God and to minister to Him forever."
(1 Chronicles 15:2)

He left Zadok the priest and his relatives the priests before the tabernacle of the LORD.... With them were Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest who were chosen, who were designated by name, to give thanks to the LORD, because His lovingkindness is everlasting.
(1 Chronicles 16:39-41)

When he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who sang to the LORD and those who praised Him in holy attire, as they went out before the army and said, "Give thanks to the LORD, for His lovingkindness is everlasting."
(2 Chonicles 20:21)

 

[underthesouthercross]

thats a great story there...im quite excited now...
i guess we could look into that a bit more...i sometimes felt it about the heart of been in the worship team if your there to praise and worship god or just there to play a few notes...
but by been in the worship team it can open doorways which i can be a awesome tool of salvation...love this topic mate...

 

[TamiinKS]

I'm wondering if this man was singing in a choir or with a smaller ensemble or playing an instrument? Or was he actually leading worship?

I think there's some difference and some wiggle room.

I could see having professional musicians playing the instruments in a praise band. I would prefer that my entire team were believers and fairly mature ones at that, but I can see how a supporting role like that might not be so critical.

For myself, I have a small ensemble to back me (my Pastor and I lead or take turns leading). This team doesn't speak, but they do have the responsiblity of being genuine in their worship so as to lead those in the congregation into that worship as well.

I feel like I have a higher responsibility as I am "out front." For instance, a couple of years ago, my husband was our worship leader. But he started to fall away from his faith and fell into a carnal lifestyle. He finally resigned the position as he felt he was not right for it. How can he stand on the platform on Sunday mornings leading worship and then have congregants see him coming out of the liquor store on Monday?

That would be the crux for me. I would not want to be the one who a younger member of the congregation saw drinking, partying, swearing or whatever and thought this behavior was okay because the worship leader was doing it. I might not even want to be a background person and be responsible for that sort of judgement.

 

[sinfulman]

thanks for your replies guys. SOrry I let the thread die a bit but I was in hospital for a bit and couln'd t post.

Basically, they let the guy play a role int he band that played when worship was led. I think that's cool. I think God smiled on it. I think he loved it. I don't think he refused to touch hearts in the congregation because their was an infidel on the stage. I don't really understand how he would.

I've been involved in worship teams for nearly 20 years and, I have to say, I'm pretty confused as to what the heck they're all about and what role they actually play in the modern stereotypical church that most of us attend each sunday. I don't think it's as cut and dried as Tal's making out. It seems to simplistic to me.

the levites were a chosen people within a chosen people. not only that but there were further requirements within that for them e.g. age and no handicaps etc if the modern worship team is only to be composed of those kinds of poeple then how cna any of us lead worhsip? How does an understanding of the role of the Levites in Israel thousands of years ago give us any indication of the role of the worship TEAM (and I emphasis that word) today without the most strained hermeneutics or making sure everyone is a legitimate Levite?

You also said, Tal, that the worship team is to "carry His presence into the hearts of the people" but none of the Scriptures you quoted focus on that. It seems to me that this contradicts the many times in the NT that we are told that the presence of Christ is already with us. It almost seems that without the worship team, you believe that people cannot experience the presence of Christ. Surely not...

Finally, no, I"m not talking about what it looks like outside but the inward motive. Rahab had faith which glorified God right? But she was a 'non-Christian' engaged in a immoral lifestyle when she hid the spies - still she did God's will. The guy in my testimony obviously had mixed motives and, from my twenty years' experience in worship teams, that makes him identical in motivation to me and everyone else i've ever worked with who was honest with me. Sure, part of my motivation was to glorify God but there were other reasons, born of myinsecurities, my pride etc that were definitely there acknowledged or not. Now the connection between the Japanese guy and Rahab is that here you have a guy with a lifestyle that doesn't glorify God, motives that aren't pure but contain an element of the fear of God doing something that God likes - playing music to lead people to declare his praises. What I'd like to konw is whether that's okay or not and it seems to me that it is from what I understand of God's grace.

BEcause of this, I queried why there are only Chrisitans in a worship team.

Others said that I wouldn't want a non-believer preaching or teaching my child in Sunday School but that's a completely different idea. We're not talking about teaching or leading here, we're talking about involvement in community where relationships can be built and, maybe more importantly in a country like Japan, this as a strategy for evangelism which God will bless.

After all, if the guy being in the worship team was an un-Biblical thing which displeased God, isn't He sending a mixed message by SAVING the guy!?

 

[LeadWorship]

What is so different about an unsaved person Preaching, than an unsaved person being on a worship team? They are BOTH ministries. Both include people who have been called by God, or should. It is the Leader's responsibility to make that decision, and I won't have any unsaved person on a worship team I am in.

Do not be unequally yolked with non-believers. We are told that specifically, yet if you sing and play next to one, you are intimiately yolked with them. You spend hours with them, and allow them to present themselves yolked in front of the church body.

Take the body of Christ, for example. Do you believe it is the job of the Body to do God's work? Do you think that any unbelievers are in the body? How can the body function uniformly and directly if the entire body doesn't have the same focus, the same goals, the same intent? It cannot.

You are allowing yourself to entertain thoughts that it is ok for a Non-Christian to lead GOD'S people to a place of worship and ministry. That's not a good thing. Remember: Jesus inhabits the praises of his people. He cannot inhabit the praise of an unbeliever because they are not His.

-in His love.

 

[sinfulman]

You are allowing yourself to entertain thoughts that it is ok for a Non-Christian to lead GOD'S people to a place of worship and ministry. That's not a good thing.

oooh scary... you know what I'm thinking... wow, even my wife can't do that trick

I think perhaps you've misread what I've written here. Never said that a non-Christian can, let alone should, lead God's people to worship. Nope. So, while some of your point is valid (leaving aside something verging on prooftexting from 2Cor 6:14), it doesn't address the issue here.

I think some people here are confusing the Body of Christ and the building and activities that go on in that building. When I say church, I mean the Body of Christ. Perhaps that will clarify.

Now, I don't see any reason why a non-Christian can't come into a building and play music with people who are in the Body of Christ while the people who are in the Body of Christ are leading other members of that Body to worship Christ. We're not talking about LEADing worship, but simply playing music alongside people who are leading worship. Nothing anyone has quoted or said here has given me reason why this is "not a good thing."

Of course, the logical conclusion of any argument not to allow any unbelievers to mix with people in the Body of Christ at all. How can that be true?

One example which is not worship but which many churches practice are homegroups where non-believers are encouraged to join because these homegroups are where outreach takes place. In these groups, anyone is free to give their opinion on passages in the Bible including non-believers during Bible study. No one is going to quote 2Cor 6:14 here are they? But one person at least is leading this group and the authority for the group to glorify God remains with that person who we agree, should be a Christian.

I feel that the example I started this thread with is very similar to this homegroup example.

 

[talitha]

Nope! The worship team is a team, and they all lead worship. The Holy Spirit should ride on the wings of the music, even the instrumental interludes...... but that cannot and will not happen when there is a mixture...... like the sin of Akin.....

 

[sinfulman]

That would be the crux for me. I would not want to be the one who a younger member of the congregation saw drinking, partying, swearing or whatever and thought this behavior was okay because the worship leader was doing it. I might not even want to be a background person and be responsible for that sort of judgement.

as we know however, many non-believers lead lives that look very moral and respectable to the community, this is especially true in Japan where conformity to acceptable standards of behaviour is the norm. If what your life looks like disqualifies you from being on a worship team, then many non-believers would be qualified.