Why Not Catholic?

[Tofferer]

The orthodox church VENERATES Mary. She is not our savior nor do we treat her as a God. We simply ask her to pray for us.

Please clarify this and give biblical support, if possible. I ask as I simply can not see how somebody who was a sinner as we all are and died 2000 years ago can possibly pray for us who are alive today. It seems like quite a stretch.


Is there any biblical support that Mary, Peter, Andrew, or any of the others who were there when Jesus walked this earth can even hear us pray?

I'm afraid that I don't understand this concept of somebody that has already died being able to pray for me.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

This is a great point!

Prayer IS a form of worship!

Kathy, you just resolved 2000 years worth of debates in one post.

... Now you need to work on the Infant Baptism debate and see what you can come up with ...

Thanks,
Ed

I think what is necessary here, Ed, for your point to "stick" is to show that Catholics and/or Orthodox are praying TO Mary in the sense of asking HER to grant the request.

To pray THROUGH another is perfectly permissible. In my church, we actually have a time when we ask the pastor to add things to the altar prayers - we are asking him to pray for us (or at least lead us in prayer). To pray THROUGH others is not unbiblical or wrong - it is quite common.

And to request another to pray FOR me is biblical. And another word for "request" is "pray." If I say, "Ed, pray that you petition the Lord regarding a new car" I'm only doing what is done all over CF by Protestants all the time - asking for others to pray on our behalf. It doesn't mean we think those people are gods or that those people answer the prayer in lieu of God.



My perspective.


Pax


- Josiah



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[Edial]

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PS I have just a tiny bit of discomfort for we Lutherans discussing Catholicism in a forum where Catholics don't normally frequent. I realize (and appreciate) that they are allowed to post here and correct our misunderstandings, unlike their forum where Protestants are not permitted to "teach" them ANYTHING (To post "Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492" is technically a rule violation in OBOB if a noncatholic posted it). But they don't frequent here. Discussions like this really should be in Theology's Mariology forum or perhaps Conservative Christians or Liberal Catholics - forums CAtholics frequent but where Protestants are permitted to discuss. I don't like it when OBOB discusses Lutheranism (often very BADLY) - and Lutherans aren't permitted to respond and probably wouldn't know the discussion is going on even if they could. And I see this similarly.

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Interesting point.

In my opinion as a Lutheran, it appears to me that the Catholics and Lutherans are the ONLY two qualified groups that could discuss each other in their own domain, since at one time we were one.

Mariology is a part of our history as much as it is of the RC.

If RC can discuss why some points of Mariology are correct in their forum, we certainly should be able to discuss why these are incorrect in ours.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

I think what is necessary here, Ed, for your point to "stick" is to show that Catholics and/or Orthodox are praying TO Mary in the sense of asking HER to grant the request.

To pray THROUGH another is perfectly permissible. ...


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OK.
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/mpray01.html#help

Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.

Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Interesting point.

In my opinion as a Lutheran, it appears to me that the Catholics and Lutherans are the ONLY two qualified groups that could discuss each other in their own domain, since at one time we were one.

As you know, in OBOB, noncatholics are not allowed to "teach." CATHOLICS may discuss, debate, rebuke or whatever all they want about any noncatholic position or denomination, and may spread disinformation about them (as is at times the case) - and no noncatholic can do a thing about that because correcting disinformation is "teaching" and a rule violation. (I KNOW!). Of course, it's highly moot since OBOB is very exclusive and rarely to noncatholics (particularly Protestants) frequent that forum - and for good reasons. Now, I realize, Ed, that TCL is different. We permit non Lutherans to post here freely, to correct our misunderstandings and even to debate. I think that good. But the REALITY is, Catholics and Orthodox rarely come here. It's not that we don't welcome or embrace them, they just don't come here. In fact, I think they come here LESS often than any of the faith community forums.

Now, we are discussing CATHOLIC issues. I'd be the LAST to complain about discussing Catholicism () but I think it needs to be done in the appropriate forums - where Catholics both frequent and are permitted to speak freely and openly.

Ed, we have a forum set up for the discussion of Mariology - an open one that allows disagreements, debates and free, open discussions. It's in Theology. It's called "Mariology." We have several forums there for other Catholic issues, too. And there are two faith forums that are frequently by CAtholics that allow open, honest discussion by all parties: Liberal Catholic and Conservative Christian. Those would be good choices too.

IMHO, as a lowly poster, in TCL, any Mariology should be LUTHERAN Mariology, about OUR views.

Perhaps I'm just being my usual pesky self, but I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I would not like a lengthen thread in OBOB about how Lutherans deny Real Presence (especially since I wouldn't be able to correct anything there) - likely going on "behind the backs" of Lutherans. So.....

But, I'm not suggesting any "rule violations" - or anything remotely of that nature. I just expressed my discomfort. And I (not altogether "tongue in cheek") made a motion to close this thread and take the issues to another forum. I didn't get a second.....




To the point, I have 2-3 posts on prayer and Mary. I rarely come to the defense of Catholicism UNLESS Catholics aren't in a position to do so - and IMHO, that may be the case here.





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[CaliforniaJosiah]

OK.
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/mpray01.html#help

Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.

Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.

Thanks,
Ed

Ed, I too have an "issue" with what I put in red font. AND I freely admit (as I think many Catholics would) that such happens.

I don't think it's what the RCC teaches. I think it's what is sometimes done. As I posted at length earlier, some Catholics DO get "carried away" in their Marian devotion.

Thanks, Ed.





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[LilLamb219]

There is only one who can deliver our prayers directly to God and that is Jesus Christ. That's why, when we pray, the prayers go through Jesus to God (yes, I know He is all one God but this is what it means by having a mediator "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:5).

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There is only one who can deliver our prayers directly to God and that is Jesus Christ. That's why, when we pray, the prayers go through Jesus to God (yes, I know He is all one God but this is what it means by having a mediator "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:5).

... Catholics believe that Mary "goes through Jesus" too. The Wedding at Cana is the usual reference.



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[Edial]

As you know, in OBOB, noncatholics are not allowed to "teach." CATHOLICS may discuss, debate, rebuke or whatever all they want about any noncatholic position or denomination, and may spread disinformation about them (as is at times the case) - and no noncatholic can do a thing about that because correcting disinformation is "teaching" and a rule violation. (I KNOW!). Of course, it's highly moot since OBOB is very exclusive and rarely to noncatholics (particularly Protestants) frequent that forum - and for good reasons. Now, I realize, Ed, that TCL is different. We permit non Lutherans to post here freely, to correct our misunderstandings and even to debate. I think that good. But the REALITY is, Catholics and Orthodox rarely come here. It's not that we don't welcome or embrace them, they just don't come here. In fact, I think they come here LESS often than any of the faith community forums.

Now, we are discussing CATHOLIC issues. I'd be the LAST to complain about discussing Catholicism () but I think it needs to be done in the appropriate forums - where Catholics both frequent and are permitted to speak freely and openly.

Ed, we have a forum set up for the discussion of Mariology - an open one that allows disagreements, debates and free, open discussions. It's in Theology. It's called "Mariology." We have several forums there for other Catholic issues, too. And there are two faith forums that are frequently by CAtholics that allow open, honest discussion by all parties: Liberal Catholic and Conservative Christian. Those would be good choices too.

IMHO, as a lowly poster, in TCL, any Mariology should be LUTHERAN Mariology, about OUR views.

Perhaps I'm just being my usual pesky self, but I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I would not like a lengthen thread in OBOB about how Lutherans deny Real Presence (especially since I wouldn't be able to correct anything there) - likely going on "behind the backs" of Lutherans. So.....

But, I'm not suggesting any "rule violations" - or anything remotely of that nature. I just expressed my discomfort. And I (not altogether "tongue in cheek") made a motion to close this thread and take the issues to another forum. I didn't get a second.....




To the point, I have 2-3 posts on prayer and Mary. I rarely come to the defense of Catholicism UNLESS Catholics aren't in a position to do so - and IMHO, that may be the case here.





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This thread talks about Catholicism in general. It also naturally itemizes some points.
Lutherans are certainly allowed to discuss this here.

What do you expect us to do - agree with RC theology.

And from what I see here, TCLers personally do like Catholics, but disagree with their theology.

Isn't this is what one of the aspects of Christian Forums all about - disagree with theology yet love each others?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[seajoy]

There is only one who can deliver our prayers directly to God and that is Jesus Christ. That's why, when we pray, the prayers go through Jesus to God (yes, I know He is all one God but this is what it means by having a mediator "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." 1 Timothy 2:5).

Before your post just now, on this page, I was afraid I was in the RC forum instead of TCL. Thanks Lambie.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What do you expect us to do - agree with RC theology.

...only where we do....

I just expressed my view that when we are having such a detailed (and rather negative) discussion of CATHOLIC practices and/or beliefs, it is good and right to do so in a forum where Catholics are welcomed and encouraged to participate - and where they are likely to do so. I just I'm uncomfortable with the "behind their backs" part. I've just been on the other side of this, and didn't appreciate it.

I'll also express my view that, sadly, there are some misunderstandings among us. It is my hope that CF can be a venue for better understanding - but that means we talk TO each other rather than ABOUT each other, especially behind their back. Now, if all this was framed as, "Lutherans do not embrace praying to Mary as the divine or as the one who is a mediator IN LIEU of Christ or as the one who answers prayer RATHER THAN God..." then I think we'd have appropriate TLC conversation. To say, "Catholics think this or do that...." well, I tend to affirm that we might be careful there since de facto, Catholics are not going to correct disinformation or misunderstandings about them.

Ed, again, I didn't suggest any rule violation. Only a bit of discomfort. I'm just a poster and just expressed that. I'm alone in it. And that's okay. Sorry for the personal expression.





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[LilLamb219]

Catholics are allowed to make corrections on their faith granted that they do it without trying to teach us how we're wrong in any way. Clarifications are always allowed by any denominations in our forum here We don't want faiths being misrepresented.

 

[Korah]

Deleted. (Only posted so I could copy what I had typed.)

 

[DaRev]

...only where we do....

I just expressed my view that when we are having such a detailed (and rather negative) discussion of CATHOLIC practices and/or beliefs, it is good and right to do so in a forum where Catholics are welcomed and encouraged to participate - and where they are likely to do so. I just I'm uncomfortable with the "behind their backs" part. I've just been on the other side of this, and didn't appreciate it.

I'll also express my view that, sadly, there are some misunderstandings among us. It is my hope that CF can be a venue for better understanding - but that means we talk TO each other rather than ABOUT each other, especially behind their back. Now, if all this was framed as, "Lutherans do not embrace praying to Mary as the divine or as the one who is a mediator IN LIEU of Christ or as the one who answers prayer RATHER THAN God..." then I think we'd have appropriate TLC conversation. To say, "Catholics think this or do that...." well, I tend to affirm that we might be careful there since de facto, Catholics are not going to correct disinformation or misunderstandings about them.

Ed, again, I didn't suggest any rule violation. Only a bit of discomfort. I'm just a poster and just expressed that. I'm alone in it. And that's okay. Sorry for the personal expression.

The last I knew, TCL was a public forum... unless that has changed.

 

[Korah]

Your point number 4 tells much....."We believe that those in Heaven hear our prayers to them...." You just prayed to someone other than God.

Yes, as a practical matter, Catholics and Orthodox do this. Properly considered theologically, it's not so. On the Catholic Answers radio show (on EWTN radio) they acknowledge that the saints in Heaven are not omniscient. They can't hear us. Catholic or Orthodox prayers to the saints actually have to go through God to get to the targeted saint. So, as Jimmie Akin would put it, we (Catholics and Orthodox, probably not us Lutherans) pray through God to Mary, etc. Jimmie would say that's really what we mean when we say we pray to Jesus through Mary, we're really only addressing Mary through Jesus. (At the far end, presumably then Mary or whatever saint does intercede with God on behalf of the person praying.)
Korah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The last I knew, TCL was a public forum... unless that has changed.

Yes, unlike OBOB, others are not only welcomed here but may debate us and inform us of our misunderstandings; we welcome that (as we MAY be the only faith community that actively and publicly does). BUT it rarely happens. Catholics come here rarely (I suspect less so than the other forums). It's permitted (unlike OBOB), it just doesn't happen. So there is a "behind your back" aspect to it - however unwittingly.

I'm alone in this, and that's okay, but I merely expressed MY view that such negative discussions of the faith/beleifs and practices of OTHERS should be done where those others can speak up in thier own defense and to correct any unintentional misunderstandings or misrepresentations. I agree with you, IN TLC, they COULD do so. It's just likely none of them know we're having this discussion about them. My recommendation was to take this to a forum where Catholics frequent and particularly to the specific forum created for this discussion. I'm alone in that, however, and that's okay.

I've seen discussions in OBOB about Lutherans that stated clearly WRONG or clearly misleading information about us. Except for a couple of mods there who happen to be Lutherans - and me, lol - no one would know all that divisive disinformation (and dissing) was going on since Lutherans don't tend to go to OBOB. I didn't like it. And what's good for the goose is good for the gander; MY perspective is that we should treat others as we would want them to treat us.

But, I've said my "piece." And I've said I don't regard anyone here as breaking any of the CF rules. It was just an expression of my discomfort with the direction this thread has gone in, and it is not shared. That's fine.







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[Tofferer]

Given that there have been a few members of the RC church here, we can be reasonably certain that this conversation isn't unknown. However, given the lack of participation, I suspect that there is a general apathy towards the topic. I would gladly welcome a member of the RC church to read this and give us correct data based upon scripture and not merely tradition as tradition can and sometimes does violate scripture. Such was the case in Luther's era. Such is the case in our era. However, if I have to choose between truth or tradition, I choose truth.

 

[RadMan]

I think what is necessary here, Ed, for your point to "stick" is to show that Catholics and/or Orthodox are praying TO Mary in the sense of asking HER to grant the request.

To pray THROUGH another is perfectly permissible. In my church, we actually have a time when we ask the pastor to add things to the altar prayers - we are asking him to pray for us (or at least lead us in prayer). To pray THROUGH others is not unbiblical or wrong - it is quite common.

And to request another to pray FOR me is biblical. And another word for "request" is "pray." If I say, "Ed, pray that you petition the Lord regarding a new car" I'm only doing what is done all over CF by Protestants all the time - asking for others to pray on our behalf. It doesn't mean we think those people are gods or that those people answer the prayer in lieu of God.



My perspective.


Pax


- Josiah



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You're talking about live intercessory prayer vs people already departed. Big difference.

 

[porterross]

You're talking about live intercessory prayer vs people already departed. Big difference.

You beat me to it, Rad.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You're talking about live intercessory prayer vs people already departed. Big difference.

It seems to ME that the Lutheran perspective is to make a sharp distinction between the Communion of saints still alive and those now above, perhaps with the assumption that those in heaven either don't know our needs, don't care about them, or cannot pray. In any case, it is MY understanding that Lutherans affirm that we may request the prayers only of the living.

Catholics don't make that distinction. Not all believe that those in heaven hear our prayers (some believe God actually must so inform them), but they do believe that those in heaven care about us and can pray for us. I think the official position, anyway, is that all prayer is intercessory - however, it need not be only by those alive at this moment in time for the communion of saints isn't limited to such.

IMHO, it's not a critical distinction. But I agree, from a pastoral perspective anyway, that seeking the prayers of those HERE and NOW, who know us, is probably more helpful to US - and God 'hears' the prayer no matter what lips direct hearts to God.




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