Why Not Catholic?

kevin.d.cherry · Jan 9, 2009

The Eastern Orthodox Church is great, you just majorly have to follow the calenders. For example, Most orthodox churches use the Julian Calender instead of the Gregorian, like we do. You might need to try to learn a little bit of the language of whichever church you're going into (Greek for the Greek Orthodox church, Arabic for the Antiochian, etc), because a lot of the service will be in that language, as well as a lot of the chanting. There is some form of fast almost every day, wether it be no fish on a tuesday and only fish on a wednesday, or what have you, but it's hard to get used to. Also be prepared to kiss a lot of icons and get used to smelling frankincense. You may want to read a little bit about the church (actually as much as you can) including the Diving Liturgy, because it can give you culture shock. Of course, I would say your best bet would be in the Lutheran Church, but it's not really my place.

Edial · Jan 9, 2009

kevin.d.cherry said:
The Eastern Orthodox Church is great, you just majorly have to follow the calenders. For example, Most orthodox churches use the Julian Calender instead of the Gregorian, like we do. You might need to try to learn a little bit of the language of whichever church you're going into (Greek for the Greek Orthodox church, Arabic for the Antiochian, etc), because a lot of the service will be in that language, as well as a lot of the chanting. There is some form of fast almost every day, wether it be no fish on a tuesday and only fish on a wednesday, or what have you, but it's hard to get used to. Also be prepared to kiss a lot of icons and get used to smelling frankincense. You may want to read a little bit about the church (actually as much as you can) including the Diving Liturgy, because it can give you culture shock. Of course, I would say your best bet would be in the Lutheran Church, but it's not really my place.

Wecome to TCL Kevin!

Ed

kevin.d.cherry · Jan 9, 2009

Thanks, ed I appreciate it. I'm not necessarily Lutheran yet, I've been to one of the lutheran churches here a few times, just haven't really joined yet.

Edial · Jan 9, 2009

kevin.d.cherry said:
Thanks, ed I appreciate it. I'm not necessarily Lutheran yet, I've been to one of the lutheran churches here a few times, just haven't really joined yet.

Hey ... nobody's perfect.

DD2008 · Jan 9, 2009

DaRev said:
The "first church" would be the one that adheres to the teachings of the Apostle's who were commissioned by Christ to build up the Church. Their teachings are handed down to us through their recorded words in the Holy Scriptures.

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What do you say to someone who tells you that many of the scriptures were in fact not written by those apostles? I have had a problem with this recently.

Thus, the "true Church" would be the one that most closely adheres to the Apostle's teachings handed down in the Scriptures. Through my own searching a number of years ago I discovered that the Confessional Lutheran Church is the closest to the church of the Apostles that exists on earth today.

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Based on what key issues?

Both the RCC and the EO have tainted the Apostolic teachings with their man-made Traditions and their insistance on works righteousness.

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Please elaborate. What are the RCC and EO teachings you find to be a departure from what the early Church taught?

Thanks.

DaRev · Jan 9, 2009

DD2008 said:
What do you say to someone who tells you that many of the scriptures were in fact not written by those apostles? I have had a problem with this recently.

I'd ask them to prove it. We as Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, without error, and the source and norm of all teaching of the faith. Thus, we believe that the words of the Bible are true. There is nothing that suggests that the NT writers are not those to whom those books are attributed. There are some books of the Bible that are anonymous (such as Hebrews), but we do indeed know who penned the majority of them.

Based on what key issues?

Please elaborate. What are the RCC and EO teachings you find to be a departure from what the early Church taught?

There are numerous and they're not hard to find. One major one is the doctrine of justification. Scripture clearly teaches justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of the works and merits of Christ alone. Any church that places any amount of our justification upon what we do is teaching contrary to the Apostles teachings in Scripture. In the RCC, the papacy is unScriptural. Marian worship is unScriptural. Veneration of the saints is unScriptural. And these are at the heart of their teachings, not the word of God. In the EO, they also place human traditions at par or above par with Scripture. Their teaching of justification is confused with sanctification, placing part of our justification on what we do instead of by the grace of God alone. Image veneration is another departure from the Scriptures.

Korah · Jan 9, 2009

DD2008 said:
DaRev said:

What do you say to someone who tells you that many of the scriptures were in fact not written by those apostles? I have had a problem with this recently.

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I'm the one to ask. I have a Master of Arts in History. [Edited to add: no slap by me at Da Rev. His posted before mine, but I had no chance to read it.]
Historical Method obliges one to look for natural explanations before supernatural explanations. It's not science in that regard, but biassed "scientism". History as written by historians and other scholars is implicitly atheistic.
Applying the standard method to Christian sources, miracles are dispensed with. Christian scholars trying to be "with it" go along with the basic premises and often wind up explaining away what can't be explained except by supernatural intervention. They also wind up accepting conclusions about Biblical events that non-Christian scholars have made as unbelievers.
The atheists do of course teach that the gospels, for example, are written by apostles nor are they eye-witness accounts. Those opinions drift into Christian (or not-so-Christian) studies.
Personally I agree with the consensus that Matthew the Apostle did not write Matthew as we have it, but he did write the underlying document. The Apostle John did not write most of the Gospel of John, but he did add to it and published it much as we have it. There is no reason to think Luke and Mark did not wriite the gospels with their names.
Korah

Athanasias · Jan 9, 2009

DaRev said:
DD2008 said:

I'd ask them to prove it. We as Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, without error, and the source and norm of all teaching of the faith. Thus, we believe that the words of the Bible are true. There is nothing that suggests that the NT writers are not those to whom those books are attributed. There are some books of the Bible that are anonymous (such as Hebrews), but we do indeed know who penned the majority of them.

There are numerous and they're not hard to find. One major one is the doctrine of justification. Scripture clearly teaches justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of the works and merits of Christ alone. Any church that places any amount of our justification upon what we do is teaching contrary to the Apostles teachings in Scripture. In the RCC, the papacy is unScriptural. Marian worship is unScriptural. Veneration of the saints is unScriptural. And these are at the heart of their teachings, not the word of God. In the EO, they also place human traditions at par or above par with Scripture. Their teaching of justification is confused with sanctification, placing part of our justification on what we do instead of by the grace of God alone. Image veneration is another departure from the Scriptures.

Click to expand...

Hi and peace be with you! I understand we view justification differently(however ecumenical talks have shown us that we are not as far off as we once thought) I do not wish to debate the doctrines at all as this is not the forum for that and I respect our Lutheran brothers and sisters. I just wanted to point something out to you that you misrepresented about the Catholic faith. You wrongly seem to think we teach and practice the worship of Mary. As a life long Catholic who is also a theology major I just needed to point out to you that Catholic DO NOT worship anyone but God alone nor we teach that we should. Mary is never worshiped and we were never told to worship her in grade or high school. Period. No priest has ever said about Mary "Here is your goddess o Catholics worship her". Our Catechism and councils teach the worship of God alone! Please do not misrepresent our faith to others.

I am surprised that you being a former Catholic did not know that. Perhaps you really didn't understand your faith fully when you were Catholic.

That being said, I hope you and your have a great new year. God bless all of my Lutheran brothers and sisters on here.

In Christ the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasias

DaRev · Jan 9, 2009

Athanasias said:
I am surprised that you being a former Catholic did not know that. Perhaps you really didn't understand your faith fully when you were Catholic.

Oh, I understood perfectly. It's one of the reasons I left the Romanist church.

Korah · Jan 9, 2009

DaRev said:
Oh, I understood perfectly. It's one of the reasons I left the Romanist church.

Amen. With the qualification that I was always embarassed by certain minority groups within RC like Filipinos and Mexicans that for all practical purposes worshipped Mary.
Yes, we know that's not official RC doctrine. But the priests make no objection to it and promoted devotions that are routinely abused.
Korah.

dinkime · Jan 9, 2009

why am i not Catholic?

because NOTHING i can DO can get me to heaven....Jesus already did it all...

Giantsbran1227 · Jan 9, 2009

Im attending an EO church on Sunday. I let you guys know how it went.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 9, 2009

Korah said:
Amen. With the qualification that I was always embarassed by certain minority groups within RC like Filipinos and Mexicans that for all practical purposes worshipped Mary.
Yes, we know that's not official RC doctrine. But the priests make no objection to it and promoted devotions that are routinely abused.
Korah.

See, I KNEW we had unity somewhere!!

DaRev · Jan 9, 2009

Giantsbran1227 said:
Im attending an EO church on Sunday. I let you guys know how it went.

May God bless your worship.

Tofferer · Jan 9, 2009

I just want to say that I feel stupid for this. I just now noticed that the Augsburg Confession is already a sticky on TCL. I don't remember if it was this thread or that other similiar thread that I said something about making the Augsburg Confession a sticky. Either way, I should have double checked the stickies before posting that. I feel really stupid for not checking first. Sorry.

DaRev · Jan 9, 2009

Tofferer said:
I just want to say that I feel stupid for this. I just now noticed that the Augsburg Confession is already a sticky on TCL. I don't remember if it was this thread or that other similiar thread that I said something about making the Augsburg Confession a sticky. Either way, I should have double checked the stickies before posting that. I feel really stupid for not checking first. Sorry.

"In the stead and by the command of my Lord, Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins; in the name..."

Edial · Jan 9, 2009

DaRev said:
"In the stead and by the command of my Lord, Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins; in the name..."

That's too easy ... you could add a penance or two ...

DaRev · Jan 9, 2009

Edial said:
That's too easy ... you could add a penance or two ...

Nah, I'm too Lutheran for that.

Tofferer · Jan 9, 2009

I will watch the 1952 Niall McGinnis movie "Martin Luther" after I get the VCR fixed this saturday. Of course that may be more like unto torture for Jeremiah than for me....

Athanasias · Jan 10, 2009

Korah said:
Amen. With the qualification that I was always embarassed by certain minority groups within RC like Filipinos and Mexicans that for all practical purposes worshipped Mary.
Yes, we know that's not official RC doctrine. But the priests make no objection to it and promoted devotions that are routinely abused.
Korah.

Really because I have been to mexican Masses in mexican churches and have known filipinos and mexicans and Greek Catholics and French Catholics and none of them practiced or taught the worship of Mary. And I know no priest that ever allowed that either. I am not saying that it couldn't or doesn't happen somewhere in the world. I sure there is abuses somewhere as All churches of all denominations have abuses because we are all sinful. I am just saying that the normal expierience and practice in the Catholic church and its offical teaching is that we do not worship anyone but God alone. So it is not Charitable for you(Our good Lutheran brothers in Christ) to try to purposely misrepresent our Catholic faith by saying we worship Mary when you know we do not. I would not purposely try to misrepresent a aspect of Lutheran teaching on the Catholic board even if there might be some people somewhere in the world who abuse a Lutheran teaching becuase that would not be fair to the Lutheran faith as whole.

I know we dissagree on justification and other issues biblically and that is ok. I am not tryign to debate here as this is not a debate board and I respect our separated Lutheran bretheren very much. God bless them. I just wanted to point out that respect means trying to not purposley misrepresent the Catholic teaching and practice to make your faith look better. That is not charity nor it is honest for rev or anyone to do that.

God bless you all very much.

In Christ the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasias

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