Why Mormons aren't christians.

[Rae]

I meant that Christ came to this world in a physical body, this does not neccesarily mean he was the (biblical) definition of a man.

--Doesn't mean he wasn't, either. It could be that he was just another man, not a God. Unless you have uncontrovertible evidence for your point, I think mine stands. The Old Testament clearly says NO man is God, and the son of man isn't God either. What's the title Jesus uses so often? Son of man? Hm. Direct contradiction there. Your argument fails.

 

[SwordOfGod]

Since none seem to want to got to the website I have twice pointed out I am going to list as many of the verses I can think of stating Christ is God, also I will again point out that God is NOT 3 gods(at least not according to the Bible) He is triune please, again, see previous posts about God being triune.



The Old Testament Testifies That Jesus Is God

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

3. Isaiah described the Messiah as both a branch out of Jesse (the father of David) and as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10; see also Revelation 22:16). According to the flesh He was a descendant (branch) of Jesse and David, but according to His Spirit He was their Creator and source of life (root). Jesus used this concept to confound the Pharisees when He quoted Psalm 110:1 and asked, in essence, "How could David call the Messiah Lord when the Messiah was to be the son (descendant) of David?" (Matthew 22:41-46).

4. Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things.

5. Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy when he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew 3:3); so Jesus is the LORD (Jehovah) and our God.

6. Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah… out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Thus the Old Testament clearly states that the Messiah and Savior to come would be God Himself.

"The New Testament Proclaims That Jesus is God

1. According to Acts 20:28, the church was purchased with God's own blood, namely the blood of Jesus.

3. Paul described Jesus as "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13; NIV has "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ").

4. Peter described Him as "God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Peter 1:1; NIV and TAB both have "our God and Savior Jesus Christ").

5. Our bodies are the temples of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17), yet we know Christ dwells in our hearts (Ephesians 3:17).

6. The Book of Colossians strongly emphasizes the deity of Christ. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9; see also 1:19). According to these verses of Scripture, Jesus is not just a part of God, but all of God is resident in Him. If there were several persons in the Godhead, according to Colossians 2:9 they would all be resident in the bodily form of Jesus. We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). Whatever we need from God we can find in Jesus Christ alone. (For further discussion of Colossians 2:9 and other proofs of Christ's deity in Colossians, see Chapter 9 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: ACTS TO REVELATION.)

We conclude that the New Testament testifies to the full deity of Jesus Christ.

God Was Manifest in the Flesh as Jesus

The statement that Jesus is God necessarily implies that God took on human flesh. This is in fact what the Bible says.

1. "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16; see verse 15 for further confirmation that God is the subject of verse 16). God was manifest (made visible) in flesh; God was justified (shown to be right) in the Spirit; God was seen of angels; God was believed on in the world; and God was received up into glory. How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

2. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

God is a Spirit without flesh and blood and invisible to man. In order to make Himself visible to man and in order to shed innocent blood for our sins, He had to put on flesh. (For more on the purposes of the Son, see Chapter 5 - THE SON OF GOD.) Jesus is not another God or a part of God, but He is the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh. He is the Father; He is Jehovah who came in flesh to bridge the gap between man and God that man's sin had created. He put on flesh as a man puts on a coat.

Many verses of Scripture declare Jesus Christ to be the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh for the purpose of self-revelation and reconciliation.

3. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Corinthians 5:19).

4. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [spoken, revealed] him" (John 1:18).

5. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son… the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…" (Hebrew 1:1-3).

6. Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

7. He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20). As Abraham prophesied, probably without understanding the full meaning of his own words, "God will provide himself a lamb" (Genesis 22:8). God indeed provided a body for Himself: "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5).

8. Jesus was the builder of the house (God the Father and Creator) and also a son over his own house (Hebrews 3:3-6).

9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).

The Word

John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).

In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer - as a play in the mind of a playwright - or it can mean the thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed - as a play that is enacted on stage. John 1 says the Logos existed in the mind of God from the beginning of time. When the fulness of time was come, God put that plan in action. He put flesh on that plan in the form of the man Jesus Christ. The Logos is God expressed. As John Miller says, the Logos is "God uttering Himself." [10] In fact, TAB translates the last phrase of John 1:1 as, "The Word was God Himself." Flanders and Cresson say, "The Word was God's means of self disclosure." [11] This thought is further brought out by verse 14, which says the incarnated Word had the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, and by verse 18, which says that the Son has declared the Father.

In Greek philosophy, the Logos came to mean reason or wisdom as the controlling principle of the universe. In John's day, some Greek philosophers and Jewish theologians influenced by Greek thought (especially the Jewish thinker, Philo of Alexandria) regarded the Logos as an inferior, secondary deity or as an emanation from God in time. [12] Some Christian heresies, including an emerging form of Gnosticism, were already incorporating these theories into their doctrines, and therefore relegating Jesus to an inferior role. John deliberately used their own terminology to refute these doctrines and to declare the truth. The Word was not inferior to God; it was God (John 1:1). The Word did not emanate from God over a period of time; it was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was none other than the Word, or God, revealed in flesh. Note also that the Greek word pros, translated "with" in verse 1, is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1. John 1:1 could include in its meanings, therefore, the following: "The Word pertained to God and the Word was God," or, "The Word belonged to God and was God."

Jesus Was God From the Beginning Of His Human Life

God was manifest in the flesh through Jesus Christ, but at what point in His life did God indwell the Son? The Bible unequivocally declares that the fulness of God was in Jesus from the moment when Jesus' human life began.

1. Matthew 1:23 says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." He was "God with us" even at his birth.

2. The angels worshiped Him at His birth (Hebrews 1:6), Simeon recognized the infant as the Christ (Luke 2:26), Anna saw the babe as the redeemer of Israel (Luke 2:38), and the wise men worshiped the young child (Matthew 2:11).

3. Micah 5:2 ascribed deity to the Messiah at His birth in Bethlehem, not just after His life in Nazareth or His baptism in Jordan.

4. Luke 1:35 explains why Jesus was God at the beginning of His human life. The angel told Mary, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Jesus was born of a virgin, His conception being effected by the Holy Ghost. Because of this ("therefore"), He was the Son of God. In other words, Jesus is the Son of God because God, and not a man, caused His conception. God was literally His Father. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…" (John 3:16). To beget means to father, sire, procreate, or cause. Jesus was begotten by God in the womb of the virgin Mary.

Isaiah 7:14 also links the virgin conception with the recognition that the Son thus born would be God. In other words, at the moment of conception, God placed His divine nature in the seed of the woman. The child to be born received its life and the fatherly side of its nature from God at this time. From the mother's side it received the human nature of Mary; from the father's side (God, not Joseph) it received the nature of God. Jesus obtained His divine nature through the conception process; He did not become divine by some later act of God. The virgin birth of Jesus establishes His deity.

Some believe that Jesus received the fulness of God at some later time in His life, such as at His baptism. However, in light of the virgin birth and Luke 1:35 this cannot be so. Jesus received His nature of deity as well as the nature of humanity at conception. The descent of the Holy Ghost like a dove at the baptism of Jesus was not a baptism of the Holy Ghost; Jesus already had all the fulness of God within Him (Colossians 2:9). Rather, His baptism, among other things, occurred as a symbolic anointing for the beginning of His earthly ministry and as a confirmation to John the Baptist of His deity (John 1:32-34). (For more on the baptism of Jesus see Chapter 8 - NEW TESTAMENT EXPLANATIONS: THE GOSPEL.)

 

[SwordOfGod]

The Mystery of Godliness

The fact that God became flesh is one of the most wonderful and yet one of the most incomprehensible things about God. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…" (I Timothy 3:16). Jesus is like no other man that ever has been or will be. He was fully God while inhabiting a human body. Most problems in people's minds concerning the Godhead come from this great mystery. They cannot understand the dual nature of Christ and cannot correctly separate his two roles. They cannot comprehend how God could take on the form of a baby and live among men.

It is true that we cannot comprehend fully how the miraculous conception - the union of God and man - took place in the womb of Mary, but we can accept it by faith. In fact, if we do not believe that Jesus is come in the flesh we have an antichrist spirit (II John 7), but if we do accept this doctrine of Christ we will have both the Father and the Son (II John 9). Both Father and Son are revealed in Christ (John 10:30; 14:6-11).

The mystery of God in flesh was a great stumbling block to the Jews. They never could understand how Jesus, being a man, could also be God (John 10:33). Because He claimed to be God they rejected Him and sought to kill Him (John 5:18; 10:33).

Even today, many Jews cannot accept Jesus for this reason. In a conversation, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi told us he could never accept Jesus as God. [13] He felt that since God is an omnipresent, invisible Spirit He can never be seen by man and cannot be visible in flesh. His reasoning reminded us of the Jews in Jesus' day. Like this rabbi, they tried to limit God by their own preconceived ideas of how God should act. Furthermore, they did not have a thorough knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures that proclaim the deity of the Messiah.

While it is humanly difficult to understand how the infinite God could dwell in flesh, yet the Scriptures declare it to be so. We reminded the rabbi of God's appearance in the form of a man to Abraham in Genesis 18. He admitted this was a problem for him, but he tried to explain it in terms of an anthropomorphism or figurative language. Then we referred to other verses of Scripture such as Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, Jeremiah 23:6, and Micah 5:2 to show that the Messiah would be Jehovah God. The rabbi had no answer except to say that our translations of these verses of Scripture were possibly incorrect. He promised to study them further.

There never has been a mystery as to "persons" in the Godhead. The Bible clearly states that there is only one God, and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery about the Godhead is how God could come in flesh, how Jesus could be both God and man(in the physical sense, and restricted in His power because of this). But the truth of this mystery has been revealed to those who will believe. The mystery of Jesus Christ has been kept secret since the world began, but was revealed in the New Testament age (Romans 16:25-26; Colossians 1:25-27). A mystery in the New Testament is simply a plan of God that was not understood in the Old Testament but which has been made known to us. We "may understand… the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:4-5). We can know the mystery of God and the Father, which is Christ (Colossians 2:2; see also the NIV and TAB). In fact, Paul explained this mystery by saying that in Jesus Christ dwells all the wisdom, knowledge, and fulness of God (Colossians 2:3, 9). The mystery of God has been revealed to us by God's Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). This revelation comes to us through God's Word, which is illuminated by the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 2:7-10). The light of Christ, who is the image of God, has shined in our hearts (II Corinthians 4:3-4). The only mystery is Christ, and He has been revealed to us! The mystery of God and the mystery of Christ converge in the Incarnation. It is simply that the one God of Israel came to the earth in flesh. This mystery has been revealed and God's Word declares that it has been made known to us today. "

 

[Rae]

Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace."

--Nope. Verse doesn't refer to Jesus. When did Jesus govern? And don't give the usual cop-out of "Well, he hasn't fulfilled this yet, but he will some day." This is yet another Christian misinterpretation of the Old Testament.

Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us

--That's nice. The Messiah was never intended to be a deity, though. Ask any Jewish person.

Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you."

--Not hardly. "God" saved his people through OTHER PEOPLE sometimes.

Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy

--According to the New Testament, whose authors had every reason to misattribute the Old to Jesus.

Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God.

--Are we reading the same verse here? It does no such thing. It predicts a RULER. Doesn't say the ruler is God. Sorry.

the Old Testament clearly states that the Messiah and Savior to come would be God Himself.

--Nope. The Old Testament clearly states that the messiah would be a man who was blessed by God.

The New Testament Proclaims That Jesus is God

--Right, contradicting the Old Testament, which says no man can ever be God. We know this already. There's no need to respond to the New Testament stuff. We know it says that the man, Jesus, was also God. I also know that this contradicts the Old Testament, which states clearly that no man is God.

 

[ccastellow]

Christs ideas about Christianity come from absolutely any page from the bible, he is the spoken Word of God and the bible is the written word of God. When God is speaking in the Bible, it is simply excepted as God. When the verses were written the Holy Spirit inspired the Author to write the verse, the One who was speaking was the Word or physical expression and part of God, and finally the Father allowed them to speak and write the words. The Trinity is One God and each part is separate and one. Please understand that God is very much like time, There are past, present and future, yet they is only time. In that same way The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can think separatly, work seperatly, even be in two different places, while still being one God.

I really don't want to get into this debate, because I don't rationalize mormonism, but three persons think separately, work separately and still be one. Your argument is why I believe in the oneness of God. These are his roles or functions, not separate persons. Besides how can a spirit be a person? Look at it this way, God is the Father of us all, He created us. God is manifested in flesh as the Son for our salvation, and well God is a spirit and He is most certainly Holy so it is safe to say that He is the Holy Spirit or Ghost as I like to say. One God with many roles. These are just three, God is infinite in His roles for us. Don't sell an omnipotent God short with this talk of three persons. You cannot put God into a box and say here you go all done. The triune is close but not realistic to me.

Besides I am a father to my children, a son to my parents and a husband to my wife, still I am ONE man, not three. And there is only ONE God (Galatians 3:20). Love you all my brothers and sisters.

 

[chokmah]

Since none seem to want to got to the website I have twice pointed out I am going to list as many of the verses I can think of stating Christ is God, also I will again point out that God is NOT 3 gods(at least not according to the Bible) He is triune please, again, see previous posts about God being triune.

Spam is spam. We get enough of it in a Daily Recommended Amount here. Your arguments aren't anything new; hence, the reason no one felt the need.

The Old Testament Testifies That Jesus Is God

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

3. Isaiah described the Messiah as both a branch out of Jesse (the father of David) and as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10; see also Revelation 22:16). According to the flesh He was a descendant (branch) of Jesse and David, but according to His Spirit He was their Creator and source of life (root). Jesus used this concept to confound the Pharisees when He quoted Psalm 110:1 and asked, in essence, "How could David call the Messiah Lord when the Messiah was to be the son (descendant) of David?" (Matthew 22:41-46).

4. Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things.

5. Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy when he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew 3:3); so Jesus is the LORD (Jehovah) and our God.

6. Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah… out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Thus the Old Testament clearly states that the Messiah and Savior to come would be God Himself.

I would love to formally debate these with you. Are you game?

 

[ccastellow]

--Doesn't mean he wasn't, either. It could be that he was just another man, not a God. Unless you have uncontrovertible evidence for your point, I think mine stands. The Old Testament clearly says NO man is God, and the son of man isn't God either. What's the title Jesus uses so often? Son of man? Hm. Direct contradiction there. Your argument fails.

How can a mere man bring so many prophecies from the OT to life. He made good on all the prophecies from the prophets. The chances of one man doing all these things is almost infinite, yet Jesus fulfilled all of them. Please explain that?

 

[SwordOfGod]

Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace."


"--Nope. Verse doesn't refer to Jesus. When did Jesus govern? And don't give the usual cop-out of "Well, he hasn't fulfilled this yet, but he will some day." This is yet another Christian misinterpretation of the Old Testament."

And just what would be your interpretation of this verse? This verse is speaking of the Gift of God to the people of Earth(Himself).... how can you interpret this verse to mean anything else than that Gift being God(Hence mighty God, Everlasting Father), unless you of course assume that the Old Testament is wrong.


Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us


"--That's nice. The Messiah was never intended to be a deity, though. Ask any Jewish person."

Forgive me, but you must have some truly astounding friends... I didn't know there was anyone on Earth who knew the Mind of God so well they knew what He was going to do next. This is truly a revelation, I didn't realize God was so easy to predict!

Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you."


"--Not hardly. "God" saved his people through OTHER PEOPLE sometimes."

True, however working with the first verse which does in fact state that the Messiah would be God, this verse makes much more sense.

Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy


"--According to the New Testament, whose authors had every reason to misattribute the Old to Jesus."



Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God.


"--Are we reading the same verse here? It does no such thing. It predicts a RULER. Doesn't say the ruler is God. Sorry."

Translation time... (if you are reading NIV) The hebrew word for ancient, in this verse, is 'olam' which in fact does mean everlasting, forever, eternity. The only being to be from eternity is God Himself. You're right by the way, it does mean a Ruler, Jesus Christ is ruler of the Kingdom of Heaven (His words, not mine). and He will return His second time to set up his Millenial reign, and the government shall be upon His shoulder. I'm not giving a cop-out, this is what the Bible says.(Se the Book of Revelation about it)

the Old Testament clearly states that the Messiah and Savior to come would be God Himself.


"--Nope. The Old Testament clearly states that the messiah would be a man who was blessed by God."

...perhaps you missed the first verse which clearly stated that the Messiah would be God...

The New Testament Proclaims That Jesus is God


--Right, contradicting the Old Testament, which says no man can ever be God. We know this already. There's no need to respond to the New Testament stuff. We know it says that the man, Jesus, was also God. I also know that this contradicts the Old Testament, which states clearly that no man is God.

Thankyou for recognizing what the New Testament says.

P.S. please state the verses that say that God is incapable of coming in a body. (which does not mean a man, as a man is infact spirit soul and body, which is not how He came as I have pointed out in earlier replies)

By the way as it seems the discussion has moved off of the LDS being Christian or not, I assume the BIble won in the end.

 

[chokmah]

Sword,

I asked you in post #86 if you would like to formally debate the supposed Messianic prophesies from your "Old" Testament. Are you interested?

 

[InnerPhyre]

Those who seek to become gods are not Christians. Polytheists are not Christians. Hence, Mormons are not Christians. But hey...maybe one day I'll die and find myself whisped away to the Planet Kolob and meet Heavenly Father there where he'll tell me I've been wrong all along.

 

[Rae]

How can a mere man bring so many prophecies from the OT to life.

--Simple...he didn't. Ask any Jewish member here. The things which Christians rip out of context to retrofit to Jesus in the OT don't actually refer to him.

Of course Mormons are Christians. No one has given any objective reason to believe they are not.

This verse is speaking of the Gift of God to the people of Earth

--The earth itself is a gift of God. Are you saying the only gifts of God can be God? That's silly.

how can you interpret this verse to mean anything else than that Gift being God

--Easily. See above. Manna was a gift of God. Does that mean I should worship manna?

I didn't know there was anyone on Earth who knew the Mind of God so well they knew what He was going to do next.

--Oh, talk to any of the numerous arrogant Christians around here. They'll tell you exactly what God supposedly thinks about gay people, abortion, politics, the end of the world, etc. Pot, you're black.

the first verse which does in fact state that the Messiah would be God

--Nope. This is not exegesis, but eisegesis on your part.

The hebrew word for ancient, in this verse, is 'olam'

--That's nice. We were talking about the world "ruler," not "ancient." Please talk about the word in question. Thanks.

 

[arunma]

Those who seek to become gods are not Christians. Polytheists are not Christians. Hence, Mormons are not Christians. But hey...maybe one day I'll die and find myself whisped away to the Planet Kolob and meet Heavenly Father there where he'll tell me I've been wrong all along.

I'm curious as to why non-Christians are so eager to label Mormons as Christians. You'd think that they have no dog in this fight.

 

[peepnklown]

Those who seek to become gods are not Christians. Polytheists are not Christians. Hence, Mormons are not Christians. But hey...maybe one day I'll die and find myself whisper away to the Planet Kolob and meet Heavenly Father there where he'll tell me I've been wrong all along.

When you make assertions, you provide EVIDENCE!

I'm curious as to why non-Christians are so eager to label Mormons as Christians. You'd think that they have no dog in this fight.

I find it odd that when a non-Christian adds to a discussion you find it fit to call it eager. Instead of Christians wondering, I would like to see them define Christianity and then support their assertions about Mormonism with evidence. If you have already provided your evidence please post the number of the post.

I asked you in post #86 if you would like to formally debate the supposed Messianic prophesies from your "Old" Testament. Are you interested?

Tag me in!

 

[chokmah]

*slap*

Tag!


*whispers, "I don't see anyone else on the other side, but maybe they'll show sometime.*

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

BS'D

Shalom SwordOfGod,

Translation time...

Indeed.

(if you are reading NIV) The hebrew word for ancient, in this verse, is 'olam' which in fact does mean everlasting, forever, eternity

I am afriad you are incorrect. The phrase from Micah, that you are reffering to, is mi'y'mei'olam which is often reffered to as "Days of old" or "Ancient Days". The same word is used in passages such as Isaiah 63:9 and 11, Amos 9:11 and Malachi 3:4.

 

[peepnklown]

And just what would be your interpretation of this verse?

I would like to jump in for a bit; Isaiah 9:5 (which is Isaiah 9:6 from the Old Testament). This is when studying the Hebrew sheds light on this Christian proof-text because this verse is in the past tense. This alone invalidates Jesus being a part of this verse but I shall continue. The Hebrew phrase is “vayikra shemo,” which properly translated, ‘called his name’ or ‘his name was called.’ If you thumb through Leviticus you will see the word “vayikra” that will verify that it’s a past tense word. Now, in context Isaiah 9 is about the marvels executed by God for Hezekiah, king of Judah.

Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us

When Christians post this part of Isaiah I doubt that they have actually read the Bible and are copying and pasting proof-text from websites. I will give you a hint: read on to Isaiah 8 and you will see that Immanuel was born (plus, Immanuel means, ‘God is with us.’).

Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you."

Yet, it doesn’t say that God will send his son to atone for the sins of humanity, nothing even close. And how does the first verse say that the Moshiach will be God? Nowhere in Isaiah 35 does it talk about the Moshiach.

 

[SwordOfGod]

At this point I pull out of this debate pleading ignorance, as I do not know hebrew and will not give any more futile attempts at translating it. Understand that I am not saying ya’ll are right, though many of you will probably take it that way. I hope that in these many posts I have made the voice of the Bible clear on the Mormon church, I am only sixteen and recognize that I am no scholar at debating and if I have made any mistakes then I beg forgiveness, from God and all of you.

May YHWH bless all of you and give you many years, that we may have many more debates.

 

[Theowne]

And the hindu trinity probably came from the wiccan trinity of mother, maiden and crone.. The origenal trinity was all female..

Do you seriously believe that?

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

BS'D

Shalom SwordOfGod,

At this point I pull out of this debate pleading ignorance, as I do not know hebrew and will not give any more futile attempts at translating it. Understand that I am not saying ya’ll are right, though many of you will probably take it that way. I hope that in these many posts I have made the voice of the Bible clear on the Mormon church, I am only sixteen and recognize that I am no scholar at debating and if I have made any mistakes then I beg forgiveness, from God and all of you.

May YHWH bless all of you and give you many years, that we may have many more debates.

As far as 16 year olds go, you handle yourself very well

Debate, either between two layman or two scholars is not a valid method of finding truths. Infact, it's merely more the art of Rhetoric ( Aristotle! ). Who ever is the more gifted speaker ( or in our case, writer ) looks as if they have the stronger case, even if thats not the truth.

Just take all these posts for what their worth, and use them to expand your viewpoint.

Peace

 

[beckysoup61]

Actually we believe in Christ, the son of God. Simple as that. I don't know why you have a cow about it. Seirously, if you look into our Church doctrine and understood it, that's what we believe.