Why Mormons aren't christians.

[arunma]

Read further into Isaiah 8 and you will see the sign, ‘Immanuel’ was born.

Are you referring to Isaiah 8:3? It says, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Call his name Maher-shalal-hashbaz." But I've read the Christian Old Testament, and perhaps I'm missing something that can only be found in your "Tanakh." Please give an exposition.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Clement of Alexandria wrote in The Stromata,

I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.


​

Saint Patrick understood the Trinity as the three leaves that come from one clover. Some modern Christians have also argued that the Trinity is like the three states in which water can exist. The three Persons of the Trinity are distinct in their function, but they are of one mind, one will, and one substance. They are One in a way that no created beings can be. I hope that makes more sense.

No it only makes God sound Schizophrenic. Which I do not believe for one moment God to be.

 

[peepnklown]

But I've read the Christian Old Testament, and perhaps I'm missing something that can only be found in your "Tanakh." Please give an exposition.

I own the Tanakh? Is Isaiah a part of your Christian Old Testament? Actually, if you would read a little further, Isaiah 8:5-10 and then Isaiah 8:18.

 

[Rae]

When Jesus Christ came to the earth, He came as Spirit manifested in flesh

--Right. As a man. And as the Old Testament says, no man is God. So Jesus wasn't God. QED.

the Old Testament does not disprove the divinity of Jesus Christ

--The Old Testament can't disprove what it doesn't mention anywhere. The Old Testament mentions Jesus nowhere. The parts that Christians misinterpret to be about "Christ" - if read in context - have nothing to do with him.

Isaiah 7 is a prophecy that does have to with Jesus Christ

--No, it doesn't. Like so many other places, the anonymous author of the Gospel attributed to Matthew got this wrong. Isaiah 7 refers to a young woman, not a virgin, and she wasn't giving birth to Jesus.

 

[KellyLeigh]

--Right. As a man. And as the Old Testament says, no man is God. So Jesus wasn't God. QED.
.

Actually Jesus didn't come to earth as a "man." Name one man that can heal the blind, rise from the dead, feed a group of men from such a small amount of scraps.

 

[KellyLeigh]

As for Mormons being Christians, the foundation of the christian beliefs do not mirror those found in mormonism. Mormon's i'm not a scholar on your beliefs here so go ahead a correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Differences in God
Mormons- God is the Supreme Being of the universe, but he has not always held that position. He gradually attained godhood by living a perfectly righteous life.

Mormonism also teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones.

• "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;..."
  -Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.
  

(Explain this ^^ )

Christians- God has existed eternally in perfection, and has never had less of His infinite power and wisdom than He has today

Differences in Jesus
Mormons- Jesus and Satan, like the rest of us, were spirit brothers and sons of God before the spirit of Jesus was given a body by Mary.

Christians- Jesus Christ has existed eternally as God the second Person of the Trinity

Differences in Salvation
Mormons- Christ overcame physical death and guaranteed physical resurrection to all mankind. But spiritual death can only be avoided by individual obedience to the commandments of God.

Christians- We are unable to live a life righteous enough to meet God's standard of perfect holiness. Therefore we become right with God by faith in the work of Christ, not by our own works

 

[DjDan]

"In any case, though there are lords many and gods many, to us there is but one God. We worship God our father, the father of Jesus Christ in the flesh... the only God that we serve."

These are contradicting statements, please clarify as I do not see how you believe in only one god and many.

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many), But to us there is but one God, the Father...

My apologies if you didn't notice. I was only paraphrasing this scripture.

As it appears you have admitted there are many gods, you are still faced with the problem of God Himself stating that there are no other gods.(please see first post... yet again) While I don't completely understand what you mean, I'll take a shot at it and say that you mean there are many gods and you worship the One who created us all. This idea still contradicts the Bible as I pointed out in the last sentence. So now DjDan you are faced with a dilemma that has only two clearly defined answers, either you except that the Bible is the uncontestable word of God and without contradiction, or you believe that the Bible is flawed as Rae pointed out, that in time it has lost its meaning and is no longer infallible, or you accept that the book of Mormon is the correct word of God and the newest attempt by God to keep His Scripture from being corrupted by the hand of man.

Regarding the Bible, it is known to man and to God alike that it is full of contradictions. Unfortunately, it is not a perfect book. It has errors. These writings have passed from man to man for many thousands of years. I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. However, I do not say that the bible is flawed; only that your interpretation of it is.

The book of Mormon is no different from the Bible in purpose and authenticity. Tell me why God would not speak to people outside of Jerusalem? Show me one scripture that says that the Bible is all of Gods words and that there is no more?

'Christianity' would rather shut the mouth of God and command him to be silent! 'Christianity' as it is today, in most of its denominations is a manmade religion. A distortion of truth, and a continual error to the end. They worship a God that cannot be understood. A God lost in time. A God of evil and wickedness.

I worship one God.
'Christianity' worships three.

 

[DjDan]

As for Mormons being Christians, the foundation of the christian beliefs do not mirror those found in mormonism. Mormon's i'm not a scholar on your beliefs here so go ahead a correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Quote me your sources... and then I will respond.

 

[KellyLeigh]

a mormon friend of mine

 

[peepnklown]

Actually Jesus didn't come to earth as a "man." Name one man that can heal the blind, rise from the dead, feed a group of men from such a small amount of scraps.

Ezekiel raised 3 people from the dead.

 

[SwordOfGod]

God did NOT come as a man, at least not in the sense you seem to mean(a physical being with a soul and spirit). Christ came in a physical manifestation... in other words he created and inhabited a body, while keeping his spiritual body as we keep a soul therefore never losing his divinity.

"The book of Mormon is no different from the Bible in purpose and authenticity. Tell me why God would not speak to people outside of Jerusalem? Show me one scripture that says that the Bible is all of Gods words and that there is no more?
'Christianity' would rather shut the mouth of God and command him to be silent! 'Christianity' as it is today, in most of its denominations is a manmade religion. A distortion of truth, and a continual error to the end. They worship a God that cannot be understood. A God lost in time. A God of evil and wickedness.

The book of Mormon is no different from the Bible in purpose and authenticity.

Forgive me, but what is the purpose of the book of Mormon(seriously, I don't know)? And as for authenticity, I would actually consider the book and other texts of LDS church, if it weren't for the conflics between the scriptures as I pointed out in earlier posts (see council of the gods and first post about only one God).

Tell me why God would not speak to people outside of Jerusalem?

He did, please see all of the scriptures speaking to anyone before the founding of Israel. Further Jesus (who is God, and NOT a man) spoke to a non-jewish woman about the 'living water', saying that nonjews could be saved.

Show me one scripture that says that the Bible is all of Gods words and that there is no more?

There are none for the simple fact that God does still speak to people, and yes I have no doubt that His words are still being written down. However, I am referring to books that are being inspired by the Holy Spirit. A common sense criteria for the decision of whether something really is inspired is whether it meshes (absolutely perfectly) with other known inspired works, the scriptures of the LDS church do not fit with the teachings of the Bible as I have pointed out earlier.

'Christianity' would rather shut the mouth of God and command him to be silent!

Hardly, we cherish every word He speaks to us. That said, can you really expect us to except every word a person who claims to be inspired says? The Bible says for us to test everything, and if a book does not match with other works, than how can you expect us to except it?

'Christianity' as it is today, in most of its denominations is a manmade religion. A distortion of truth, and a continual error to the end.

Grant it that there are distortions and people who twist the scriptures for themselves, however we are not talking about modern christianity, we are talking about the scriptures, the word of God. By the way I'm curious as to what 'end' you think christianity is aimed at. Last I checked it was to save people from their sin and show them the light of God.

They worship a God that cannot be understood. A God lost in time. A God of evil and wickedness.

I'm sure from your point of view it sounds that way, but I tell that our God is the same as the Isrealites and is just as loving and perfect as He was then. It is people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who have distorted the Truth and made light into darkness. They have led millions on a path different than that of Christ and I beg of you to open your mind to this. By the way, thank you for admitting that we worship a different God than you and therefore proving that Mormonism is in fact a different religion and not what christians call christianity.

 

[chokmah]

Now that I'm out of Christianity, I wonder who are the "true" Christians:

Orthodox
Catholic
Protestant
Sectarian Groups

Each thinks they have something over the other. Is any one group right?

 

[ladycat]

Now that I'm out of Christianity, I wonder who are the "true" Christians:

Orthodox
Catholic
Protestant
Sectarian Groups

Each thinks they have something over the other. Is any one group right?

True Christians are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and as Lord of their lives. This applies regardless of whether they are Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Pentacostal, Coptic, or any other Christian division.

Sadly, most people who "think" they are Christian are not, because they have not made that crucial step of accepting Jesus as Savior.

Conversely, anyone may accept Jesus no matter what their religious background is. Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and many others of non-Christian origins have received the Word and accepted Jesus.

True Christians make up the Body of Christ. That is the true definition of The Church.

 

[Cassiopeia]

True Christians are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and as Lord of their lives. This applies regardless of whether they are Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Pentacostal, Coptic, or any other Christian division.

Sadly, most people who "think" they are Christian are not, because they have not made that crucial step of accepting Jesus as Savior.

Conversely, anyone may accept Jesus no matter what their religious background is. Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and many others of non-Christian origins have received the Word and accepted Jesus.

True Christians make up the Body of Christ. That is the true definition of The Church.

Those who are true Christians only God knows because God can see into the heart of man and know of assurity. It is not our place to judge them. Every single Mormon I know and I knew many in my years of being one, accept Jesus as their Savior and acknowledge that without his sacrifice for them, they would be lost.

I grow weary of the arguments about the "mormon" Jesus so don't go there with it.

Perhaps in the true spirit of christianity we can let the God decide who he will call his children and whom he will not.

 

[DjDan]

"The book of Mormon is no different from the Bible in purpose and authenticity."

Forgive me, but what is the purpose of the book of Mormon(seriously, I don't know)? And as for authenticity, I would actually consider the book and other texts of LDS church, if it weren't for the conflics between the scriptures as I pointed out in earlier posts (see council of the gods and first post about only one God).

You ask what is the purpose of the book of mormon? I answer in asking you what is the purpose of the Bible? your answer for that, will answer your own initial question. The book of mormon exists for the same reason that the bible exists. Primarily, to teach and witness of Jesus Christ, the son of God.

The book of mormon doesn't teach about there being a council of Gods.

"Tell me why God would not speak to people outside of Jerusalem?"

He did, please see all of the scriptures speaking to anyone before the founding of Israel. Further Jesus (who is God, and NOT a man) spoke to a non-jewish woman about the 'living water', saying that nonjews could be saved.

agreed. then is it not possible that he could have spoken to people living in MesoAmerica too? Is there any law to stop him?

"Show me one scripture that says that the Bible is all of Gods words and that there is no more?"

There are none for the simple fact that God does still speak to people, and yes I have no doubt that His words are still being written down. However, I am referring to books that are being inspired by the Holy Spirit. A common sense criteria for the decision of whether something really is inspired is whether it meshes (absolutely perfectly) with other known inspired works, the scriptures of the LDS church do not fit with the teachings of the Bible as I have pointed out earlier.

Again... is it not possible that God could have spoken to the prophets as recorded in the Book of Mormon?[/QUOTE]

 

[Rae]

Jesus didn't come to earth as a "man."

--Really? He was a bird or a fish? Funny, your Bible seems to say he was a man. Where are you getting the information that Jesus wasn't a man? Or are you arguing that Jesus was a woman? I guess that'd mean She could qualify as God, but you're going to have to provide some evidence on that point first.

Name one man that can heal the blind, rise from the dead, feed a group of men from such a small amount of scraps.

--Any modern eye doctor with access to a modern hospital can heal the blind, raise people from the dead, and feed many people with one small hospital cafeteria.

Christ came in a physical manifestation... in other words he created and inhabited a body

--So in other words, he was a man. Got it. There is, of course, nothing approaching objective evidence that Jesus was a God, but I'm willing to concede he was a man for purposes of debate.

 

[peepnklown]

True Christians are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and as Lord of their lives.

If this is the definition of “Christian” then Mormons fit the mold, hurray!

True Christians make up the Body of Christ. That is the true definition of The Church.

Hey, remember those verses from the Gospels where Jesus defines Christianity and calls for churches to be erected in his name?

 

[SwordOfGod]

"You ask what is the purpose of the book of mormon? I answer in asking you what is the purpose of the Bible? your answer for that, will answer your own initial question. The book of mormon exists for the same reason that the bible exists. Primarily, to teach and witness of Jesus Christ, the son of God."


The Bible teaches that Christ is God (the Son of God, Him being a person of the trinity, however the LDS church and many of their other scriptures (I did not necessarily mean the book of mormon) teaches a plurity of Gods (again, book of Abraham).

"agreed. then is it not possible that he could have spoken to people living in MesoAmerica too? Is there any law to stop him? "

Absolutely not, however you have offered no valid proof, because, as I have pointed out, the scriptures of the LDS church conflict with the Bible, the word of God. (Note: Just because I say 'word of God', this does not neccesarily mean that there are not further inspirations, that said the book of mormon does not fit with the Bible and therefore cannot be considered scripture, If one believes that the Bible is not scripture please do not bother to post as I am not out to convince (in this thread at least) that the bible is inspired)

"Really? He was a bird or a fish? Funny, your Bible seems to say he was a man. Where are you getting the information that Jesus wasn't a man? Or are you arguing that Jesus was a woman? I guess that'd mean She could qualify as God, but you're going to have to provide some evidence on that point first."

I meant that Christ came to this world in a physical body, this does not neccesarily mean he was the (biblical) definition of a man. A man has a soul and a spirit (we are also triune beings). Christ did not, He was God the Son and retained his spiritual body even though He had a physical body. Look at Revelation's description of the Christ with the nail holes still in His spiritual body when he sits at the Right Hand of the Father. For further proof that Christ was more than just a man, please read the verses from this website, sorry there are a lot but then the Bible has much say on the subject.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch4.htm

"Hey, remember those verses from the Gospels where Jesus defines Christianity and calls for churches to be erected in his name? "

Christ said that those who believe in Him and why He came (a belief that He was God, the One and Only, manifested in the flesh and that He died for all our sins) would be His body or The Church. The Church Universal is made of the followers of Christ, it is not the building.

 

[SwordOfGod]

God Bless

 

[peepnklown]

The Bible teaches that Christ is God (the Son of God, Him being a person of the trinity, however the LDS church and many of their other scriptures (I did not necessarily mean the book of Mormon) teaches a plurality of Gods (again, book of Abraham).

No, the Tanakh teaches that God is ONE, and doesn’t teach that Jesus is God. It really doesn’t matter how you mask it, the trinity is 3 Gods, and thus LDS’s take on the matter is nothing but their interpretation and doesn’t invalidate them as Christians. If different interpretations or revelations invalidate a sect from Christianity then nobody is Christian.

Christ said that those who believe in Him and why He came (a belief that He was God, the One and Only, manifested in the flesh and that He died for all our sins) would be His body or The Church.

Christ? When was Jesus anointed? Oh, nevermind; Jesus never defined Christianity thus any definition is up for interpretation and your paragraph is nothing but your interpretation, but it isn’t the only. If you would like we could discuss (in another thread) on if Jesus truly wanted people to believe he was God.