Why Mormons aren't christians.

BourbonFromHeaven · Dec 25, 2005

Casiopeia said:
As a Latter-day Saint I always understood the trinity to be made up of three distinct personages with one purpose...nothing was said to call them all Gods.

Not outright. But when I questioned to the missionaries about Joseph Smith's of seeing jesus standing next to the father, that is how I got it explained to me. The holy spirit and the son act independently of the father, are seprate from the father, but all three share one exact purpose, so they are often considered one.

I had a lengthy correspondence with a Professor from BYU, who made Apologetics a hobby. This is how he tried to explain the mormon godhead to me and that henotheism would be an appropriate title for this belief, if one wanted to make an issue of it.

To be honest, it makes sense, the way Mormon's explain it. However, I reject it outright due to the polytheistic nature of it

Rebbe peepnklown said:
Odd, I have seen many Christians from this forum define it as three separate personalities with one essence, so I chalk it up to semantics.

The devil is in the detials. Christians see the three persons of the Trinity as manifiestations of god. So in christian writings, you won't see the father standing next to the son, so to speak.

BourbonFromHeaven · Dec 25, 2005

Casiopeia said:
Oh I heard THAT! It is all about vaulting one's self above the rest to feel superior. Kinda like My dog is better than your dog only on this forum we get to see, My Jesus is better than your Jesus which translate to, my view of Jesus is right and your are wrong and therefore not a christian.

What a shock a few people have coming when they get to the pearly gates and find out how wrong they were.

I have the highest respect for the Church of Latter Day saints. They are a very kind and intellectual people and they are a very valid expression of faith. Mormons have always treated the Jewish people very kindly, and have always allowed us to practice our faith unhindered and even gone out of their way to help Jews preserve our faith, merely out of the kindness of their heart ( Youd' be suprised how much land the Church has merely donated for the contstruction of of Shuls...)

arunma · Dec 25, 2005

Rae said:
I don't care that you take issue with it. I'm going to give my opinions here and everywhere else that isn't segregated to Nicene Creed believers only. If you hate it so much, ignore my posts. I'm certainly going to ignore any further posts of yours like this one. Bye.

So then, can I assume that you have no valid counterargument to what I have said? "I don't care what you think" isn't responsive to the argument that I presented, and your opinions are meaningless unless you can defend them.

BourbonFromHeaven said:
The devil is in the detials. Christians see the three persons of the Trinity as manifiestations of god. So in christian writings, you won't see the father standing next to the son, so to speak.

Actually Bourbon, Christians don't view the Persons of the Trinity as different manifestations of God. This is a rather common heresy known as Modalism. The Persons of the Trinity are distinct and equal, but not separate. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense that Jesus offered regular prayers to the Father.

Now as for the Father standing next to the Son, there are numerous references to Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of God. These should probably be taken as symbolic for the simple reason that the Father doens't have a body. Nonetheless, they do indicate the distinctive nature of the three Persons.

But, as you say, we do view the Trinity as one God, and it is very important for us to combat heresies of polytheism.

BourbonFromHeaven · Dec 25, 2005

arunma said:
Actually Bourbon, Christians don't view the Persons of the Trinity as different manifestations of God. This is a rather common heresy known as Modalism. The Persons of the Trinity are distinct and equal, but not separate. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense that Jesus offered regular prayers to the Father.

Now as for the Father standing next to the Son, there are numerous references to Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of God. These should probably be taken as symbolic for the simple reason that the Father doens't have a body. Nonetheless, they do indicate the distinctive nature of the three Persons.

But, as you say, we do view the Trinity as one God, and it is very important for us to combat heresies of polytheism.

You know, I'm beggining to prefer doing Logrithims over trying to understand Trinatarian concepts.

Cassiopeia · Dec 25, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
Not outright. But when I questioned to the missionaries about Joseph Smith's of seeing jesus standing next to the father, that is how I got it explained to me. The holy spirit and the son act independently of the father, are seprate from the father, but all three share one exact purpose, so they are often considered one.

I had a lengthy correspondence with a Professor from BYU, who made Apologetics a hobby. This is how he tried to explain the mormon godhead to me and that henotheism would be an appropriate title for this belief, if one wanted to make an issue of it.

To be honest, it makes sense, the way Mormon's explain it. However, I reject it outright due to the polytheistic nature of it

I am sorry but which BYU professor and is he in good standing with the LDS church. And Mormon missionaries taught me alot of things that were their opinion and not based in doctrine as well. I was LDS for 28 years. I started out as an 18 year old adult and I left four years ago. My studies were extensive. I am unwilling to take the opinion of missionaries and you will have to do better than a "BYU professor who makes apologetics his hobby. Many a BYU professor has been fired for pushing their own theological ideas.

ps139 · Dec 25, 2005

Rae said:
Part of what it is to be Christian is to follow the 10 Commandments. Commandment #1 is a rejection of all other gods.
--1. The Ten Commandments were intended only for the Jews, not for the Christians who came after them.

2. Actually, according to commandment #1, you only need not to worship other Gods as much as you do YHVH, if you read the words of the commandment. Ye shall have no Gods BEFORE ME. But even so, if a Christian happens to believe there ARE other Gods out there, that isn't forbidden by this commandment either...as long as s/he doesn't worship those other Gods. So yes, a Christian could be a polytheist (i.e. believe there are other Gods out there than YHVH/Jesus) as long as s/he didn't hold those other Gods above YHVH/Jesus.

I'm sorry, but you are completely mistaken on both counts.

Apex · Dec 25, 2005

Ok since I have seen some confusion on our view of the God head Ill explain it. Although Casi did a very good job. We belive in three distinct beings, God the Father, Jesus, and the Holly Ghost. We belive that, while seperate, they constitute one will, one purpose, basically one God.

And as for us not being christians, a christian is one who belives in Jesus and his sacrafice. Nothing more, nothing less. So that makes us christian.

Lignoba · Dec 25, 2005

Well the fact still remains, Mormons consider themselves Christians. What is wrong with this? I see nothign wrong with it.

ps139 · Dec 25, 2005

peepnklown said:
I find this humorous, if you believe that Jesus is God and or Christ but do not believe in the man made Nicene Creed, then you are not Christian?

THe site has to define orthodox Christian doctrine somehow. Or else anyone can say he or she is Christian and begin preaching all sorts of things. We are multidenominational, so it is a bit of a problem as to where to draw the line for what the site considers orthodox doctrine. You can believe whatever you want about the Nicene Creed itself; the site requires one to assent to the doctrines contained within it (Scripture references supplied) in order to post in the Christian only forums. Erwin felt this was the most practical way of doing things, and I happen to agree with him, and he owns the site, so that's that.

That said, I do not judge anyone's relationship with God or their salvation depending on what icon they have on an internet forum. I have neither the right nor ability to.

Rae · Dec 25, 2005

you are completely mistaken on both counts.

Since all you offer for support is your opinion, I reject it and go with mine.

BourbonFromHeaven · Dec 25, 2005

Casiopeia said:
I am sorry but which BYU professor and is he in good standing with the LDS church.

Dan Peterson. He should be in good standing with the Church, he writes for FARMS

http://farms.byu.edu/viewauthor.php?authorID=1

And Mormon missionaries taught me alot of things that were their opinion and not based in doctrine as well.

Click to expand...

Well, I understand that is frowned apaun and it was only the 1st lesson.

I was LDS for 28 years. I started out as an 18 year old adult and I left four years ago. My studies were extensive. I am unwilling to take the opinion of missionaries and you will have to do better than a "BYU professor who makes apologetics his hobby. Many a BYU professor has been fired for pushing their own theological ideas.

Click to expand...

I'll try, but this may, again, be chalked up to my misunderstanding ( per the usual when dealing with "godheads" )

Lemme quote from a Mormon Article by Kevin Graham, again, another educated Mormon in good standing with the church...

We as Latter-day Saints accept this "three in one" concept as far as it is referring to the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience.

Click to expand...

Here is the parent article; http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/trinity.html

three seprate beings, who share one will and purpose but not substance and conscience is, for a lack of better terms, henotheism.

However, I am willing to admit, I am wrong. Since, you were a Mormon longer then I have been alive

Cassiopeia · Dec 25, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
Casiopeia said:

However, I am willing to admit, I am wrong. Since, you were a Mormon longer then I have been alive

Click to expand...

You are too cute. LOL...I think the problem we have here is alot of people giving opinions...and like noses..we all have one

I think the problem I have the most with LDS apologists is that they usually take one stand or another to the extreme.

let me refer you to the First Article of Faith:

articles of faith said:

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in HIS son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Click to expand...

now if you notice ..that is all it says. End of story. So many people want to make more of it than that. I know I know all the anti-mormon literature and all the arguments and I have left that church but it really chaps my hide when people try to extrapolate more than it really means.

Why the need to exclude Mormons from Christianity? I have no idea...but I will tell you this...I don't think it is a bad thing necessarily except for the blatant insult the fundamentalist Christians slap them with. Latter-day Saints hold Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. That without him and his death on the cross, they can not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So, any arguement that says they aren't Christian based on the Nicene Creed is just semantics and veiled insults. The same for the Jehovah's Witnesses or any unorthodox religion. And for the life of me...I can not understand why ANY Christian..orthodox or otherwise would see fit to insult others as Christ made it plain that we are not to do that.

Besides...that just isn't civilized.

Lignoba · Dec 25, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
Casiopeia said:

Here is the parent article; http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/trinity.html

three seprate beings, who share one will and purpose but not substance and conscience is, for a lack of better terms, henotheism.

Click to expand...

Angelfire is not a credible srouce, anybody can post anything they want on there.

Orontes · Dec 25, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
However, after investigating their doctrines and having actual Mormons themselves explain their beliefs to me, I can say with confidence, Mormons are simply not Christians.

Hello,

What is your definition of Christian?

MQTA · Dec 25, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
You know, I'm beggining to prefer doing Logrithims over trying to understand Trinatarian concepts.

like the constipated mathematician? he worked out his problem with a slide rule. ( old joke, before calculators )

MQTA · Dec 25, 2005

Lignoba said:
Well the fact still remains, Mormons consider themselves Christians. What is wrong with this? I see nothign wrong with it.

Apex said:
And as for us not being christians, a christian is one who belives in Jesus and his sacrafice. Nothing more, nothing less. So that makes us christian.

When I first joined CF and saw that JWs and Mormons weren't considered Christians here I had emailed an LDS friend of mine. Boy was she in total disagreement, to say the least.

I never knew all these divisions. Not much before I joined here I figured Christians were Christians, all focused on Jesus, and, in theory anyway, loving of their neighbors. I got a lot of relations that consider themselves and I never really paid much attention to their denominations, I still don't know most of what they are. They go to Church, they celebrate the same holidays, what more did I need to know.

But coming here to CF... WOW! What an education! I never realized most all the issues were WITHIN... and all the rest (including some of whom I thought were WITHIN) are a buncha atheists going to hell.

More division than I ever witnessed 'out there'.

Sure isn't UNITING. Something ain't workin' somewhere.

Very educational, unfortunately I don't think in the way originally envisioned for this place, nor people in general. Wow.

MQTA · Dec 25, 2005

Orontes said:
Hello,

What is your definition of Christian?

how about something simple? I always thought it was those people who wore some sort of a cross simply Believed In Jesus.

I never know there were all these stipulations and WHAT to believe About Jesus. If they talked about Jesus, to me, they were Christians. They surely thought They were. Didn't matter to me HOW. Never knew all these Requirements. They say you gotta confess with your tongue, anything more than that are Details, no?

Lignoba · Dec 25, 2005

MQTA said:
When I first joined CF and saw that JWs and Mormons weren't considered Christians here I had emailed an LDS friend of mine. Boy was she in total disagreement, to say the least.

I never knew all these divisions. Not much before I joined here I figured Christians were Christians, all focused on Jesus, and, in theory anyway, loving of their neighbors. I got a lot of relations that consider themselves and I never really paid much attention to their denominations, I still don't know most of what they are. They go to Church, they celebrate the same holidays, what more did I need to know.

But coming here to CF... WOW! What an education! I never realized most all the issues were WITHIN... and all the rest (including some of whom I thought were WITHIN) are a buncha atheists going to hell.

More division than I ever witnessed 'out there'.

Sure isn't UNITING. Something ain't workin' somewhere.

Very educational, unfortunately I don't think in the way originally envisioned for this place, nor people in general. Wow.

IGNORANCE at its finest. I will see you in Hell, along with these "athiests".

MQTA · Dec 25, 2005

Lignoba said:
IGNORANCE at its finest. I will see you in Hell, along with these "athiests".

Can we meet for coffee or tea?

arunma · Dec 26, 2005

Rae said:
Since all you offer for support is your opinion, I reject it and go with mine.

But Ps139 is right. My guess is that he didn't support his opinion because I had already done so in a previous post. I have presented to you the translators' footnotes for multiple translations of the Bible, all of which prove that the First Commandment prohibits all forms of polytheism, contrary to what you said earlier.

I have offered scholarship, not opinions, and now I await your response (if you have one). Failure to respond to my argument, or casual dismissal of it, does not bolster your position either. You yourself have admitted that what you say is your own personal opinion. I have defended my opinion, and now you must defend yours as well.

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