Why Mormons aren't christians.

[arunma]

You know, I'm beggining to prefer doing Logrithims over trying to understand Trinatarian concepts.

I don't blame you. Logarithms are really cool. My favorite part about the natural logarithm is that it is very easy to differentiate. That makes complicated products and quotients very easy to differentiate, simply by taking the logarithm first. You'd also be surprised at how often logarithms appear in differential equations. They can be used to explain exponential growth and decay in plenty of physical systems.

I would say that logarithms are a physicist's best friend, but that award probably goes to Taylor polynomials.

 

[peepnklown]

Christians see the three persons of the Trinity as manifestations of god. So in Christian writings, you won't see the father standing next to the son, so to speak.

Do a poll; I have seen many of them define the Trinity as 3 separate personalities but one essence or other synonyms. You won’t see the son standing at the right hand of the father?

I have presented to you the translators' footnotes for multiple translations of the Bible, all of which prove that the First Commandment prohibits all forms of polytheism, contrary to what you said earlier.

Do you believe that Exodus 20:3 forbids thinking that are other gods but not worshiping them?

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

BS'D

Shalom Orontes,

Hello,

What is your definition of Christian?

Much of the documents used by Christians today to define themselves, are rejected by Mormons becuase in that era, the world was in Apostacy until the gospels were restored to Joseph Smith.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Angelfire is not a credible srouce, anybody can post anything they want on there.

You have got to be kidding me.



EDIT: You deal realize, one has to READ the article, and judge it based on it's content. Not by what Web provider they go with.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

how about something simple? I always thought it was those people who wore some sort of a cross simply Believed In Jesus.

I never know there were all these stipulations and WHAT to believe About Jesus. If they talked about Jesus, to me, they were Christians. They surely thought They were. Didn't matter to me HOW. Never knew all these Requirements. They say you gotta confess with your tongue, anything more than that are Details, no?

But Mormon and Christian understandings of Jesus are different. If that wasn't the case, then why are there mounds of apologetic works on both sides, covering the issue?

I don't think it's a matter of christians being snobby, but rather them defending doctrines they hold to be true and universial to Christindom.

 

[Cassiopeia]

But Mormon and Christian understandings of Jesus are different. If that wasn't the case, then why are there mounds of apologetic works on both sides, covering the issue?

I don't think it's a matter of christians being snobby, but rather them defending doctrines they hold to be true and universial to Christindom.

No, Mormons do not understand Jesus differently. I am sorry but I really think you should let them speak for themselves. Your undersanding and discussing it as if you know what they believe is really like me trying to explain Judaism to someone else. While I studied for a year with a Rabbi and at the University of Cape Town I studied religion, I am not qualified to speak for the Jewish people and their beliefs. I won't even go as far as to say what is the different between Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism.

 

[Cassiopeia]

BS'D

Shalom Orontes,




Much of the documents used by Christians today to define themselves, are rejected by Mormons becuase in that era, the world was in Apostacy until the gospels were restored to Joseph Smith.

That doesn't answer his question. Define Christianity please.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Do a poll; I have seen many of them define the Trinity as 3 separate personalities but one essence or other synonyms.

I don't thik I have the fortitude to wade through the pages apaun pages of discussion that would spawn.

You won’t see the son standing at the right hand of the father?

That begs the question, of how a omnipresent, perfect being, stand next to itself. As Arunma stated, even Christians don't take the Pslam reading that literal, however, Mormons do have classic portraits of Joseph Smith's vision, where there the actual son and father and standing next to each other, you wouldn't see that in any other form of Christanity.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

That doesn't answer his question. Define Christianity please.

I define it, by the documents and creed that Christians use to define it. Mormons claim the world was in Apostacy until it was restored to Joseph smith. Anything comeing out of these time periods does not contain the "full truths", so to speak.

Second, you have to take into account of Mormon extra-biblical books, such as the book of mormon itself, pearl of great price, doctrine and covenents. These items contain things that are simply unknown to classic Christanity, such as the restored priesthoods, temple rites, etc, etc.

 

[Cassiopeia]

That begs the question, of how a omnipresent, perfect being, stand next to itself. As Arunma stated, even Christians don't take the Pslam reading that literal, however, Mormons do have classic portraits of Joseph Smith's vision, where there the actual son and father and standing next to each other, you wouldn't see that in any other form of Christanity.

Are you absolutely sure that you won't see that in any other form of Christianity? I was raised both Catholic and Presbyterian. Both took that scripture literally. Just because a Mormon artist painted the portrait doesn't mean it is exclusive to their religious beliefs and no other Christian sect.

Be careful not to paint with two wide a brush.

 

[Cassiopeia]

I define it, by the documents and creed that Christians use to define it. Mormons claim the world was in Apostacy until it was restored to Joseph smith. Anything comeing out of these time periods does not contain the "full truths", so to speak.

Second, you have to take into account of Mormon extra-biblical books, such as the book of mormon itself, pearl of great price, doctrine and covenents. These items contain things that are simply unknown to classic Christanity, such as the restored priesthoods, temple rites, etc, etc.

You do not understand my question I can see. Define what makes someone a Christian. You are only telling me possible differences between what is held to be an unorthodox Christian view vs an orthodox one.

Please....what makes someone a Christian. Don't tell me how Mormonism is viewed by the world. I want to know what makes someone a Christian.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Are you absolutely sure that you won't see that in any other form of Christianity? I was raised both Catholic and Presbyterian. Both took that scripture literally.

Both asses the passage in the same manner as Saint Augustine did, in his understanding of Psalm 110. In the fact, that, one isn't going to heaven and is actually going to see the father sitting in a throne with jesus at his right hand, while the father props his feet on his enemies.

All I need now is for a Catholic to come along and tell me thats exactly what he plans to see

Just because a Mormon artist painted the portrait doesn't mean it is exclusive to their religious beliefs and no other Christian sect.

This is specificly what I am speaking of....

Do you know of something in Christian Art that is similiar to this? That actually pictures the Father and Son, side by side in human form?

 

[Cassiopeia]

Both asses the passage in the same manner as Saint Augustine did, in his understanding of Psalm 110. In the fact, that, one isn't going to heaven and is actually going to see the father sitting in a throne with jesus at his right hand, while the father props his feet on his enemies.

All I need now is for a Catholic to come along and tell me thats exactly what he plans to see



This is specificly what I am speaking of....

Do you know of something in Christian Art that is similiar to this? That actually pictures the Father and Son, side by side in human form?

It is a painting...so?I see you are not addressing the point that actually Mormons aren't the first to believe that Jesus is a personage seperate from the Father but one in essence. Mormons say one in purpose others say essence. Semantics. I know alot of non-Mormons who believe exactly as the Mormons do and they are devout Christians.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

You do not understand my question I can see. Define what makes someone a Christian.

I have, allow me to quote myself...

I define it, by the documents and creed that Christians use to define it.

meaning, things like the Nicene Creed, define what a Christian is.

You are only telling me possible differences between what is held to be an unorthodox Christian view vs an orthodox one.

Well, those are pretty big indicators as to "Whats Christian" and "What isn't"

Please....what makes someone a Christian.

I'll repeat myself...

I define it, by the documents and creed that Christians use to define it.

moving on....

Don't tell me how Mormonism is viewed by the world.

I haven't, I'm only baseing myself off what the LDS Church members activily teach.

I want to know what makes someone a Christian.

and I'll say it again

I define it, by the documents and creed that Christians use to define it.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

It is a painting...so?

I think this shows how different Mormon understanding of the Godhead is, compared to Orthodox Christanity. Unless, you can show me a painting from Christisndom that actually shows the father in human form standing next to the son, it's a pretty big statement.

I see you are not addressing the point that actually Mormons aren't the first to believe that Jesus is a personage seperate from the Father but one in essence.

I'm aware of those debates, but since I haven't either seen the Christian or Mormon side ever take a strong lead in either discussion, I can't comment.

Mormons say one in purpose others say essence. Semantics. I know alot of non-Mormons who believe exactly as the Mormons do and they are devout Christians.

If it semantics, why do most Christian denomnations do not see the LDS church as an accurate form of Christanity? Why do educated Christians continue to engage in apologetics over the nature of the Godhead with Mormon apologists? Why do educated people, on both sides, cannot see it as an issue of semantics?

 

[Cassiopeia]

I have, allow me to quote myself...



meaning, things like the Nicene Creed, define what a Christian is.



Well, those are pretty big indicators as to "Whats Christian" and "What isn't"



I'll repeat myself...



moving on....



I haven't, I'm only baseing myself off what the LDS Church members activily teach.



and I'll say it again

You are still not answering me. So let me help you. A person who is Christian, believes that Jesus was the son of God and died on Calvary for the sins of mankind. That he came into this world and was born of the Virgin Mary and died without ever having sinned. That without his sacrifice we can not return to the presence of God. Christians believe in this literal blood sacrifice. Christians are baptised as he commanded them to do so. They follow after his teachings. They believe that by believing in him and in his name all things are made possible.

The Nicene Creed is what THIS forum has set forth as to define an Orthodox Christian. It is NOT the sum nor the entire measure by which the world sets the standards for being a christian. There is the Apostolic Creed as well. But to sum it up simply, if one believes that Jesus died on the cross and our sins are literally wiped away with the blood sacrifice of his life, they are a Christian.

 

[Cassiopeia]

I think this shows how different Mormon understanding of the Godhead is, compared to Orthodox Christanity. Unless, you can show me a painting from Christisndom that actually shows the father in human form standing next to the son, it's a pretty big statement.



I'm aware of those debates, but since I haven't either seen the Christian or Mormon side ever take a strong lead in either discussion, I can't comment.




If it semantics, why do most Christian denomnations do not see the LDS church as an accurate form of Christanity? Why do educated Christians continue to engage in apologetics over the nature of the Godhead with Mormon apologists? Why do educated people, on both sides, cannot see it as an issue of semantics?

I have to get busy with my day but let me respond to this in part and will come back later to address more of your post. I am going to give you an example:

I think that the Calvanist view of Christianity is frought with falsehoods. It creates a picture of God that I find appauling. I don't see their teachings in harmony with what Jesus taught. But, I will NOT refuse to call them Christians because their doctrinal differences differ with mine. And I don't care how much others like to bicker and be pedantic over words, it doesn't make what they say anymore true.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

You are still not answering me. So let me help you. A person who is Christian, believes that Jesus was the son of God and died on Calvary for the sins of mankind. That he came into this world and was born of the Virgin Mary and died without ever having sinned. That without his sacrifice we can not return to the presence of God. Christians believe in this literal blood sacrifice. Christians are baptised as he commanded them to do so. They follow after his teachings. They believe that by believing in him and in his name all things are made possible.

Rock on.

The Nicene Creed is what THIS forum has set forth as to define an Orthodox Christian. It is NOT the sum nor the entire measure by which the world sets the standards for being a christian. There is the Apostolic Creed as well. But to sum it up simply, if one believes that Jesus died on the cross and our sins are literally wiped away with the blood sacrifice of his life, they are a Christian.

Again, I see the Nicene Creed as a measuring stick for defining Christanity and heresies. I use the Maimonides 13 principles in the same manner, and I allow mainstream christanity to do the same.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

I have to get busy with my day but let me respond to this in part and will come back later to address more of your post. I am going to give you an example:

Really, it's just a matter that our perspectives are really different. I think we have both explained ourselves, I don't see much to gain from going down this path. I'm getting the feeling we are running circles around eachother.

You do see the irony of two non-christians debating over what a christian is

 

[Lignoba]

You have got to be kidding me.



EDIT: You deal realize, one has to READ the article, and judge it based on it's content. Not by what Web provider they go with.

No, im not kidding you. If it comes from any website from angelfire, geocities, etc... I simply will not read it. Do you know how many people write stuff on there that is completely and totally bizarre? I have seen pages of people who think the world is flat, people who think rape and murder is natural and should be commended and people who promote child pornography. I will not use anything from these sites, if what he says is widely accepted then it should be somewhere else as well. Find it and post it from a credible source and I will read it. Until then, good luck.