Why Mormons aren't christians.

[Apex]

LDS (Mormons) accepts Jesus Christ as their leader, their king, their savior. They accept his divinity, his life, and his atonement.

Why do I find that Athiests get our basic beliefs right more then mainstream christians here...

 

[peepnklown]

Thank you for saying the truth.

No problem.

Why do I find that Atheists get our basic beliefs right more then mainstream Christians here...

It might be because we do not have blinders on. LDS core doctrine about Jesus has been posted numerous times yet Christians (who believe Mormons are not Christians) dodge and continue to assault ideologies and interpretation like they personally have the ONLY answer.

 

[Apex]

AHEM! Dear...my forum is down...and it is on a linux server

Ohh..... She got ya Swart.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

This is a false dichotomy.

Here is the statement;

So, you have never seen a discussion where both sides (educated) could not see the issue of semantics?

and here is the reasponse...

The debates I am reffering to, are between both Christian and Mormon scholars. I would think, these people could see an issue of semantics.

Please explain to me, the diversion I was trying to create, and from what subject?

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

excuse me? Who is we? You got a mouse in your pocket? Because YOU and I have not discussed anything about me. You do not know my past or my present and the fact I run an online store that caters to many different spiritual paths does not limit me from being Christian.

I would appreciate it if you would edit your post and remove the link to my store as I believe posting it will violate forum rules.

Well, I could have sworn you and had shared some comments about your spiritual history, back when you had a non-denomnational icon. I guess I was really wrong.

By the by, I've edited the whole post. I apologize for giving you some a grave offense.

bye.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Well, I could have sworn you and had shared some comments about your spiritual history, back when you had a non-denomnational icon. I guess I was really wrong.

By the by, I've edited the whole post. I apologize for giving you some a grave offense.

bye.

I am extremely sensitive on being labeled. I am me...and I don't like the boxes people try to put others in. Thank you for editting your post...I don't want either of us to be in breach of forum policy.

 

[Orontes]

Me: This is a false dichotomy.

Here is the statement; "So, you have never seen a discussion where both sides (educated) could not see the issue of semantics?"

and here is the reasponse:

"The debates I am reffering to, are between both Christian and Mormon scholars. I would think, these people could see an issue of semantics"

Please explain to me, the diversion I was trying to create, and from what subject?

Hello,

A false dichotomy is not a diversion, but a false division: Stating "Christian and Mormon scholars..." suggests a division between the two: as in the one is not the other when, in point of fact, the one is a subset of the other. One can be a Christian and not a Mormon, but one cannot be a Mormon and not a Christian.

 

[Swart]

AHEM! Dear...my forum is down...and it is on a linux server

Ohh..... She got ya Swart.

It's obviously not a Linux box that I administer!

(With the exception of this site. but hey! I've gotta sleep sometime!)

 

[SwordOfGod]

The only thing I can say is... wow. This thread has gone on MUCH longer then I expected... cool.

All right....... as to the Mormon's beliefs on the trinity, this has already been addressed... I will however repeat again and again,

The Church of the Latter Day Saints believes that there is more than one God. The Bible says that there is only one God and no other, this in itself completely seperates the Mormon church from the Christian Church.

Proof

The book of Abraham (I know it's not in the book of mormon) talks all about the "council of the gods". You might say that since mormons are henotheistic that the Bible just focuses on one God and happens to not mention the others, however...

DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

Isaiah 44: 6 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 5 I am the Lord, there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
New Testament
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

Ah... but let us not forget the mormon teachings, so let us hear from the prophet himself...

"In the beginning the head of Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people on it...in all congregations when I have preached on the subiect of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods." Joseph Smith, History of the (Mormon) Church, Vol. 6, pp.308, 474.

Now onto the Mormon definition of the trinity, I think that the best way of putting it can only come from the prophet himself...

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?...Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Pages 370&372)


As Joseph Smith has just said, the God of the trinity, the One of the bible (yet again, as I pointed out in the first post), is not the same as the god of the mormon church. By saying that God is not only non-triune but also not even One, how can it be claimed that mormons worship the same God as the christians. But why is this so important, why does it matter that there is only one God as compared to more? The answer is in the words of our savior Jesus Christ when He said 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' John 14: 6. It means that His way is the only way, and if we do not even know who He is then I ask you, how can we be saved?

For those who have been paying attention, yes that was a repeated post (twice now), however I do not seem to be getting the point across, that the Mormon church does not and cannot hold the way to Christ. Also as the prophet pointed out, "I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization.", the god's of the Mormon and Christian religions are different gods, therefore how can a Mormon call himself a christian? How can one who worships a completely different god claim to be apart of that religion?

From the 1908 RLDS book of Mormon.



2 Nephi 7:12 But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers, that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance.


2 Nephi 8:13 For if there be no Christ, there be no God; and if there be no God, we are not, for there could have been no creation.


2 Nephi 8:14 But there is a God, and he is Christ; and he cometh in the fullness of his own time.


2 Nephi 11:26 And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations, for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind;


2 Nephi 11:36 And according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.


2 Nephi 11:39 Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.
2 Nephi 11:43 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God;
2 Nephi 11:78 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also, that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God; and that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost;

An excellent point! The Book of Mormon does indeed contradict later documents about the trinity or nontrinity of God. And since ALL the words of the prophet are considered inspired, I think this adds a great deal of weight to the conviction that not only is the Church of the Latter Day Saints not Christian, but also a false religion.

(By the way, in order to cut off debates that really don't belong in this thread about the second commandment, we are not debating modern Christianity. We are debating scripture. Also, the different denominations all have the same basic beliefs or they would not be considered Christian, hence the Jehovah's Witness and other cults)

 

[Rae]

The Bible says that there is only one God and no other

--So when the First Commandment says, "you shall have no Gods before me," it doesn't really refer to Gods other than YHWH? Funny, sounds like it does to me.

 

[SwordOfGod]

Very creative! I have never heard that one before! I must disagree however, there are no gods beside YHWH, as evidenced by God later saying...

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

now, if we except the Bible as the unerring word of God then we must come to the conclusion that God was saying that we must not put any other "gods" before Him since there are no others beside Him and they are therefore false.

 

[peepnklown]

DEUTERONOMY 32:39

Let’s actually look at the correct translation from the Hebrew Bible; Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that it is I! I am the One, and there is no god like Me! I cause death and grant life. I strike, but I heal, and no one can rescue from My Hand!

It says, “and there is no god like Me!”

 

[peepnklown]

The Bible says that there is only one God and no other, this in itself completely separates the Mormon Church from the Christian Church.

Yet, Jesus is (so-called) quoted separating himself from God, as a distinct being several times. For example: John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. So, Mormons have a case.

Now tell me, do you follow Jesus or the Council of Nicaea?

 

[Cassiopeia]

Yet, Jesus is (so-called) quoted separating himself from God, as a distinct being several times. For example: John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. So, Mormons have a case.

Now tell me, do you follow Jesus or the Council of Nicaea?

ANNND ..what about when he was baptised by John the Baptist? Jesus was in the water...and there was a voice in the heavens, saying, "this is my son in whom I am well please." and the holy ghost descended as a dove. So what are we to derive from this? That he was a magician? Schizophrenic ? or three distinct beings? The Mormons most certainly DO have a case.

 

[MQTA]

ANNND ..what about when he was baptised by John the Baptist? Jesus was in the water...and there was a voice in the heavens, saying, "this is my son in whom I am well please." and the holy ghost descended as a dove. So what are we to derive from this? That he was a magician? Schizophrenic ? or three distinct beings? The Mormons most certainly DO have a case.

Who wrote this? Where were they observing this to know it happened like this? Maybe it's pure evangelical hearsay?

 

[Cassiopeia]

Who wrote this? Where were they observing this to know it happened like this? Maybe it's pure evangelical hearsay?

Could you be a bit more specific in what you are asking ?

 

[SwordOfGod]

ANNND ..what about when he was baptised by John the Baptist? Jesus was in the water...and there was a voice in the heavens, saying, "this is my son in whom I am well please." and the holy ghost descended as a dove. So what are we to derive from this? That he was a magician? Schizophrenic ? or three distinct beings? The Mormons most certainly DO have a case.

And now we come once again to trinity doctrine which states that God is one, and that God is three persons. That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God. This plurity is evidenced throughout the Bible and is fully understood in the New Testament. Let me explain, in Romans we are told to look to understand God in His creation, first you must understand that WE as the images of God are triune beings like God...

1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

When God created the universe, man was created in His image, this was probably not meant to mean a physical image. Instead consider for a second that God is indeed a Triune being, we therefore, being the images of God, are also triune. As the passages above show(If you believe the bible is the infallible word of God), we are indeed triune being body, soul and spirit. After the fall of man the bible makes it clear that every human owed a physical death for our sins, and our lifespan decreased from 1000 to the limit of about 120 years. For many thousands of years God told the Isrealites to sacrifice animals to make clean themselves of their sins. In Isaiah we find however that not even a human's death can make up for any of our sins, we find throughout the old testament instead verses that state the sacrifices were only symbolic. That an Elect One, a Lamb of God had been prepared to die for our sins(Google messianic prophecies), and would make clean anyone who believed in Him, before Him and after. Continuing on the idea that God is a triune God(see first post), we can use reasoning to say that if the Father is a spirit-physical being with an image(throughout Ezekial and Isaiah),the Son is the physical expression of God(First couple of chapters of John), the Holy Spirit is completely without image, and that the body is the physical expression of man, that the soul is a spirit-physical being with an image(Revelation), and that the human spirit is without image, than we can conclude that the body is the image of the Son.I don't know if any of that made sense, however the point is that there are parallels between the trinity of man and the trinity of God, and that Jesus Christ is the body of God. If this is so, then when Jesus died on the cross, the Body of God died on the cross, therefore God died in the same way that we have to(physically not spiritually), he was the ultimate sacrifice and he carried all of our sins with him to Hell (or somewhere else, there is much debate) for three days before he was resurrected. If there is only one God as the bible proved in my first post, and it is impossible for humans to be made clean by anything less then God, then the the bible clearly states that the mormon way is not the way to salvation. Also in answer to Peepnklown's statement, God is triune and the biblical verses you pointed out only reinforce this. For one, just because God is trune does not neccasarily mean that all three persons are always together, indeed the Father (and at the second, Christ) spends His time in the temple of Heaven, while the Holy Spirit is on Earth. Also when Jesus is asked about when His second coming would come, he says that neither He nor the Holy Spirit knew, but only the Father. And yet again I point out that the Bible clearly states that there is only one God(see first post). Also, as for the banner of christianity, I absolutely agree that no one(except Jesus) is perfect or for that matter even good at being Christian, but this only reinforces the need for understanding the bible, especially the parts about salvation, so we can make ourselves clean again from our nack at being bad at christianity.

 

[SwordOfGod]

Also, if this is confusing then I offer a metaphor, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit parallel something else He created, time. Time flows in three distinct parts past, present and future, while being separate they are also simultaneous and together are called time. Just because past, present and future are distinctly separate we would never call them each time because they are not separately time but are time only together. Separate, these three parts could not function.

 

[SwordOfGod]

Who wrote this? Where were they observing this to know it happened like this? Maybe it's pure evangelical hearsay?

In this discussion it is assumed that the Bible is the infallible word of God. If this is not your belief please do not post as this a debate between Mormon scriptures and Christian Scriptures. Thankyou

 

[Psalmangel]

And now we come once again to trinity doctrine which states that God is one, and that God is three persons. That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God. This plurity is evidenced throughout the Bible and is fully understood in the New Testament. Let me explain, in Romans we are told to look to understand God in His creation, first you must understand that WE as the images of God are triune beings like God...

1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

When God created the universe, man was created in His image, this was probably not meant to mean a physical image. Instead consider for a second that God is indeed a Triune being, we therefore, being the images of God, are also triune. As the passages above show(If you believe the bible is the infallible word of God), we are indeed triune being body, soul and spirit. After the fall of man the bible makes it clear that every human owed a physical death for our sins, and our lifespan decreased from 1000 to the limit of about 120 years. For many thousands of years God told the Isrealites to sacrifice animals to make clean themselves of their sins. In Isaiah we find however that not even a human's death can make up for any of our sins, we find throughout the old testament instead verses that state the sacrifices were only symbolic. That an Elect One, a Lamb of God had been prepared to die for our sins(Google messianic prophecies), and would make clean anyone who believed in Him, before Him and after. Continuing on the idea that God is a triune God(see first post), we can use reasoning to say that if the Father is a spirit-physical being with an image(throughout Ezekial and Isaiah),the Son is the physical expression of God(First couple of chapters of John), the Holy Spirit is completely without image, and that the body is the physical expression of man, that the soul is a spirit-physical being with an image(Revelation), and that the human spirit is without image, than we can conclude that the body is the image of the Son.I don't know if any of that made sense, however the point is that there are parallels between the trinity of man and the trinity of God, and that Jesus Christ is the body of God. If this is so, then when Jesus died on the cross, the Body of God died on the cross, therefore God died in the same way that we have to(physically not spiritually), he was the ultimate sacrifice and he carried all of our sins with him to Hell (or somewhere else, there is much debate) for three days before he was resurrected. If there is only one God as the bible proved in my first post, and it is impossible for humans to be made clean by anything less then God, then the the bible clearly states that the mormon way is not the way to salvation. Also in answer to Peepnklown's statement, God is triune and the biblical verses you pointed out only reinforce this. For one, just because God is trune does not neccasarily mean that all three persons are always together, indeed the Father (and at the second, Christ) spends His time in the temple of Heaven, while the Holy Spirit is on Earth. Also when Jesus is asked about when His second coming would come, he says that neither He nor the Holy Spirit knew, but only the Father. And yet again I point out that the Bible clearly states that there is only one God(see first post). Also, as for the banner of christianity, I absolutely agree that no one(except Jesus) is perfect or for that matter even good at being Christian, but this only reinforces the need for understanding the bible, especially the parts about salvation, so we can make ourselves clean again from our nack at being bad at christianity.

The term ,"Elect One." It rings a bell. It reminds of what i read in another website. I believe it was www.theseasons.org, just to say.