• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Why Jesus won't reign on this Earth for 1,000 years

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by random person, Jul 19, 2014.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +785
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican

    What I am failing to see is, what ruling with a rod of iron has to do with spiritual warfare? I don't see the connection.
     
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    No it doesn't because what Jesus said is applicable to every believer regardless of where we are in history, because Christians die throughout that history. Everyone that dies a believer, is an overcomer. You want to accept Revelation 2-3...so why would you not accept Romans 8:37-39?:
    37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
    38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
    39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


    If that's not overcoming...what is? Scripture is consistent on this!

    It is Jesus that says since He overcame, we overcome...1 John 4:4:
    You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

    1 John 5:4:
    For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the worldour faith.

    Sure we are rewarded by God for some things in this lifetime, and some things we won't be rewarded for until we stand before Christ. Our faith is built in many ways as we walk with God through Christ in this life.

     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,206
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    There is no second coming found in Rev 20. Christ returned in Rev 19, before the thousand years begins. Christ fights in the battle of Armageddon but is not involved in the Gog and Magog battle. That involves God the father sending fire down to burn Satan's armies...Christ and his army aren't involved.

    When that battle is over, Satan is sent into the LOF and the beast and FOP are already there because they were sent there before the thousand years in the Rev 19 battle.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,206
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Who is Christ reigning over in a real and literal sense?
    The nations that reject Christ and promote false religions and false gods?
    The nations that kill Christians whenever they wish?

    If he was actually reigning over the nations then he's doing a terrible job. The truth is he is not exercising power over the nations because the nations are doing whatever they wish to, following evil and wickedness in rejection of Jesus. That's because Christ said the ruler of this world is satan, John 14:30.

    According to scripture, the rod of iron reign over the Christ rejecting nations doesn't even begin until Christ returns. Only at that time will we see the real and effective rule with a rod of iron. No nation will be able to reject Christ or kill anyone as they will be strictly governed. The future thousand years will be a Christian theocracy and not the disaster of a world that we have now and have had for such a long time.
     
  5. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    That is the second coming in Revelation 20. Just as the Lord had stated at Matthew 25:31-46. Revelation 19 is the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Satan is not sent to the LOF until Revelation 20:10 after the Gog and Magog war.
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,206
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    No, that's just fire from the Father. The second coming is found in Rev 19.


    Jerusalem isn't even in Rev 19 let alone any destruction of it. The only destruction to the city is from an earthquake and only ten percent falls.


    Which is why I said, "When that battle is over, Satan is sent into the LOF and the beast and FOP are already there because they were sent there before the thousand years in the Rev 19 battle."

    That proves Christ returned in Rev 19 when he defeated the beast and FP before the thousand years began.
     
  7. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Is that why Psalm 110:2 says Christ will reign in the midst of His enemies? Nations are now under the control of our Lord, who knows the beginning from the end. Christ is...and always has been saving a people for His name out of the world from every tribe nation kindred and tongue since the cross...because He reigns.
     
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Yet it's called the Gog and Magog war...why?

    It is if you understand how to identify her.

    No. That proves you don't see Christ coming in judgement on Jerusalem in Revelation 19. Jesus, clearly tells His second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. He even says so at verse 31..."31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne..."

    No fanfare....Jesus just comes.
     
  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,206
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    No they aren't. Jesus is not commanding them to reject Christianity, follow false gods and kill Christians. Satan is controlling the nations. This is God's will until the second coming when all kingdoms fall under the control of Christ.

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Before the 7th trump, the kingdoms of the world were not the kingdoms of Christ.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,206
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    People call it that, the bible doesn't.

    Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    Satan goes to them to gather his army.

    Armageddon is a place 66 miles from Jerusalem. The battle is fought there, not Jerusalem.


    Only because it isn't there.


    Are you trying to claim Christ won't kill an army when he returns? That would be an incorrect position. Rev 19 is the eye witness account of the second coming and battle that ensues.
     
  11. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Jesus doesn't have to...He already knows the beginning from the end. It's called omniscience!

    As I've said before vss 17-19 show this occurred after Christ made the sacrifice. He opened the temple in heaven as He is the temple.

    Try reading Revelation 1:5-6
     
  12. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Notice that highlighted red.

    Try Ephesians 6:10-17. Understand the war has been going on a long time.



    It's typology from Israels OT battles




    Because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. The great harlot in 19:2 nails it.




    Christ is reigning there, so He did it...to Jerusalem in 70 AD.
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +785
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican


    Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    And what happened once it was open? and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    And you see great hail fitting with after Christ made the sacrifice?

    Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up

    Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    These appear to be the only 3 verses in Revelation where hail is mentioned. It doesn't look like it's a pleasant experience, nor does it look like great hail even remotely fits with a time around Christ's sacrifice.

    When I see someone this far off, such as you are here, I often ask myself, wonder what else this person might be wrong about? Don't some of you even read the details often included in verses? Revelation 11:19 doesn't just stop with the temple being opened in heaven, it goes on to say---and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Below we see a temple open as well.

    Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

    And notice what follows. And it for sure has nothing to do with anything involving Christ's sacrifice in the first century.

    Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
    7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
    8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

    So I'm thinking maybe Revelation 11:19 is connected with the 7 last vials of wrath. We're obviously not on the same page here, that's for certain.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +785
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Ignore verse 20 in Revelation 19, right?

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    And that fits with 70 AD exactly how???????
     
  15. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Have you read the gospels...Matthew in particular as to what happened after Christ made the sacrifice?
    Let me remind you...Matthew 27:50-54:
    50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
    51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
    52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
    53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
    54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!


    First of all, you cannot forget that John is in a vision as He sees these things throughout Revelation as he writes. These are things that happen throughout scripture in prophetic visions.

    That you cannot see the correlation, is why you don't get what's happening. That in Matthew 27:50-54 correlates to what is happening in heaven at the same time. John is simply revealing it:
    *The veil in the temple of Jerusalem is ripped in half. That veil was the entrance into the Holy of Holies, where the High Priest would meet with God on The Day of Atonement. With Christ sacrifice for sin...God would no longer meet there because of the New Covenant through Christ...The Day of Atonement is fulfilled in Christ now!

    *At the same time...Christ becomes our High Priest. Hebrews 9:11-14 points this out. As Christ appears in heaven before the Father, after committing His Spirit to God...that is what John is telling you happened in heaven via Revelation 11:15-17 as Christ appeared before the Father...His reign begins right there! Therefore the heavenly chorus opens up in heaven, with the worship of Christ.

    Jesus has received the reign from the Father...and when He returns to earth to show Himself resurrected to the apostles, just before He ascends to the Father, He relayed His reign given Him by the Father to them in Matthew 28-18-20. He sends them into the world on His Authority because He reigns!

    Just an excerpt of Hebrews 11:11 to enlighten you:
    11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation...

    Where did Christ appear? It was in heaven DavidPT! John is relaying that to you in this vision. It's what happened in heaven as Christ appeared. This we know from scripture! Primarily, we know this from Hebrews 11:23-28

    23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
    25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
    26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
    27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
    28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


    So, when you say "When I see someone this far off, such as you are here..." I equally ask are you reading Revelation in light of what scripture has already said...and are you correlating it to that.

    Throughout scripture we will see things going on in heaven, revealed in apocalyptic language that scripture always uses. Case in point would be what Ezekiel 1(a book that is highly a companion to Revelation)...read in Ezekiel 1 and note all the things he saw in his vision of heaven...then tell me "how far off" I am from John's vision Revelation 11. Especially not recalling Johns vision of God in Revelation 4:5-11, where the same apocalyptic activity of Revelation 11:15-19 is going on.

    These are visions where the prophets are seeing things that we don't see in this realm. If we're not reading them based on scripture, we will fail to get the true message..and what you are seeing in Revelation 11:15-19 is Jesus being worshiped when appearing in heaven, AFTER He has made the sacrifice, and God has given Him the reign.

    It also correlates to Daniel 7:11-14:
    11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
    12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
    13 “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
    14 “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

    When you read the passage of Revelation 11:19, not realizing that Christ is the temple...and not recalling for instance...Hebrews 12:18-29...you don't get the message.

    Christ inauguration in heaven is seen a few times in Revelation, as it is a book that will give you the same vision in a different way, leaving you to see it for what it is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

    +28,314
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    That would also include the Harvest of Matt 13 and Rev 14..........

    Matthew 13:30
    ‘Let both grow together until the Harvest, and at the time of Harvest I will say to the Reapers, 'First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into My barn.”39 And the enemy who sowed them is the Devil, and the Harvest is a full end<4930> of the Age, and the reapers are Messengers. [Revelation 14:15]

    Matthew 24:
    3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
    and of the together-finish<4930> of the Age
    ?'

    Luke 21:
    27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;
    [Revelation 14:14]

    Revelation 14:

    14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
    and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting, having a golden Crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
    15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying in a great voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap<2325>!
    that came the hour to reap, that is dried/ripe the Harvest of the land.”
    16 So He sitting upon the cloud casts His sickle on the land, and the land is reaped.
    17 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary of the one in the heaven, and He also had a sharp sickle.
    18 Then another Messenger, the One who has authority over the fire, came out of the Altar; and He sounds to a great voice to Him having the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in thy sharp sickle! and pick! the clusters from the Grapevine of the land, that are mellow it's grapes.”
    ===========================
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  17. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +595
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    That's what it says and that's what happened. We find the beast in Revelation 13. He is the fourth beast which Daniel spoke of in Daniel 7:23-27. Can you see that much?
     
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +785
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican

    We are on the same page about the connections involved. We would not be on the same page if you think these things have already been fulfilled.
     
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

    +1,477
    Christian
    Married
    We should first define who the 4th beast is.


    Daniel tells us that 4 beasts will arise from the earth, but the saints will receive the kingdom.


    Daniel 7:16-18 So he told me the interpretation of these things: ‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

    The 4th beast is the 4th kingdom that appears on earth

    Daniel 7:22 This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth,

    When we parallel this with Daniel 2, 4 earthly kingdoms are mentioned, the 1st one being Babylon.

    Daniel 2:37-42 You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given sovereignty, power, strength, and glory. Wherever the sons of men or beasts of the field or birds of the air dwell, He has given them into your hand and has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. But after you,

    there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

    Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

    there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; for iron shatters and crushes all things, and like iron that crushes all things, it will shatter and crush all the others. And just as you saw that the feet and toes were made partly of fired clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom, yet some of the strength of iron will be in it—just as you saw the iron mixed with clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoples will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay.

    in the days of the 4th kingdom God would set up a kingdom

    Daniel 2:44 In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed


    So are there any NT scripture that tells us when the kingdom would be set up and when saints would inherit the kingdom?

    Well, during the roman empire, which would be the 4th kingdom (Babylon, Persia/Media, Greece, Roman), Jesus began to preach the kingdom was at hand.

    Mark 1:14-15 After the arrest of John, Jesus went into Galilee and proclaimed the gospel of God. “The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

    As Jesus was casting out demons, the kingdom of God had come upon them in the 1st century during the roman empire.

    Luke 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Jesus tells the disciples that some of them standing there would not die until the saw the kingdom of God come with Power. If this was to happen in their lifetime, it would be during the roman empire.

    Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

    revelation confirms the kingdom of God came at the ascension of Christ, when satan was cast out. This occurred in the 1st century during the 4th empire.

    Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

    Therefore we can see that the kingdom of God was set up during the 4th kingdom/beast, the roman empire, when Christ would ascend to the throne and receive His kingdom at the right hand of the father.

    So when would the saints receive the kingdom?

    Daniel states that the saints would inherit the kingdom when the court sits in judgment and the dominion of the little horn is taken away.

    Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
    to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
    his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

    Jesus states the kingdom is given to the people producing its fruits (saints) when it is taken away from Christ rejecting Israel.


    Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits

    This would occur at the coming of the vineyard owner in judgment of the wicked tenants


    matthew 21:40-41 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

    The author of Hebrews states they were receiving (present tense) a kingdom. Hebrews is accepted as being written pretty close to the destruction of Jerusalem


    Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

    Paul stated that God bringing him into the heavenly kingdom. Will bring is future tense


    2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring (future tense) me safely into his heavenly kingdom

    Based on this evidence it seems the saints would inherit the kingdom at the coming of Christ in judgment on Israel (wicked tenant) which occurred in 70ad, during the reign of the 4th beast.

    The kingdom seems to be a present reality, but it isn't inherited by believers until God brings them to heaven. Just as when Jesus ascended he received the kingdom.

    Interestingly enough, the 4th beast of Daniel 7 has 10 horns, which represent 10 kings. There were coincidentally 10 kings of the roman empire leading up to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. I would argue the little horn (which is different than the other 10 horns) was not a roman emperor, but is related to the beast of revelation as both the beast of revelation and the little horn of Daniel 7 blaspheme God and persecute the saints.






     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +785
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican

    Even if one found all of that reasonable conclusions to come to, it is not reasonable to think anyone or anything has already been cast into the lake of the fire in the past. That would be a major event for sure. I wonder why history records no such event if this has already been fulfilled?

    According to Revelation 19, not only does the beast get cast into the LOF, so does the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image---so what exactly would the FP have to do with what happened in 70 AD? There is no logical connection with that of the false prophet and what occurred in 70 AD.
     
Loading...