Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:"propitiation".
Seems to me it would be more appropriate to define hilasterion.
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:"propitiation".
Edial said:If the Word is quite clear that he died ONLY for all that believe - where?
There are verses that state that he died for the Church, but not only for the Church.
I can show a verse that he died for one person, does that mean that he died ONLY for that one person?
I can show many verses that he died for all, the whole world and so on.
The Limited Atonement is a conclusion upon which the Calvinism stands.
That's all I am pointing out.
Now, if you believe that the Trinity is an appropriate analogy and you are comparing (or elevating) your opinion to the value of that of the Trinity - no problem. Your opinion. Your elevation. Your choice.
Really, there are no hard feelings on this one.
It is good however, to see that Calvinists are coming out and presenting (in their own words of course) that there indeed is no Scriptural proof that he died only for the elect.
Opinion, yes, conclusion, yes, but no proof.
Thank,
Ed
Sentry said:Seems to me it would be more appropriate to define hilasterion.
Ron151 said:If Christ REALLY took upon himself the sins of the entire world, then why are NON believers who died, now in hell? You say because of a lack of faith. But Christ died 2,000+ years ago long BEFORE these individuals were born and lived out their earthly lives. Did Christ REALLY take their sins upon them BEFORE they were born? Did Christ take YOUR SINS upon him before you were born. If he did then your sins were forgiven. Christ's death really accomplished what he set out to do. To lay down his life for HIS SHEEP.
You say what about faith? Faith is not a work of the death of Christ, but a work of the Holy Spirit. Is that not true? And the Father from the foundation of the world knew whom he would choose. The father draws all his elect BY HIS SPIRIT, through the gospel. All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all work together to bring the elect to salvation and eternal life. The elect come from both Jews and the Gentiles. The world of the elect. I believe this is the awesome truth from God's word.
Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:"hilasterion" refers to the "place of propitiation" and corresponds to the Mercy Seat. The OT Hebrew word that corresponds with "hilasterion" is "kapporeth", which means primarily, "lid" as in the Mercy Seat.
I have asked many of the semi-pelagians who contend that Christ was the propitiation for the entirety of humanity without exception, just whom God commanded the high priest to offer atonement for on Yom Kippur. They refuse to answer.
On Yom Kippur, "The Day of Atonement", the High Priest sprinkled blood on this mercy seat to cover the sins of Israel (Leviticus 16:14-16) but not the sins of those outside Israel. This ritual foreshadowed in type and picture the work of Jesus Christ as High Priest making propitiation for the sins of His people with His own blood, thereby covering their sins and appeasing the wrath of God.
Yom Kippur forshadowed the Atonement of Christ, for the "sins of My people".
The Atonement of propitiation on Yom Kippur was limited atonement, as was the substance of the foreshadow that Christ accomplished on the Cross.
Because gift requires receiving. There are plenty of verses to support that.If Christ REALLY took upon himself the sins of the entire world, then why are NON believers who died, now in hell? You say because of a lack of faith. But Christ died 2,000+ years ago long BEFORE these individuals were born and lived out their earthly lives. Did Christ REALLY take their sins upon them BEFORE they were born? Did Christ take YOUR SINS upon him before you were born. If he did then your sins were forgiven. Christ's death really accomplished what he set out to do. To lay down his life for HIS SHEEP.
Please also read John 12:32 But I, when lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself.You say what about faith? Faith is not a work of the death of Christ, but a work of the Holy Spirit. Is that not true? And the Father from the foundation of the world knew whom he would choose. The father draws all his elect BY HIS SPIRIT, through the gospel. All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44
Awesome, sounds good, but not biblical. Sorry. This theory hinges on the concept of particular redemption which does not boast a single verse in it's support. Ed proved it, Calvinists admitted.The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all work together to bring the elect to salvation and eternal life. The elect come from both Jews and the Gentiles. The world of the elect. I believe this is the awesome truth from God's word.
DIANAC said:Because gift requires receiving. There are plenty of verses to support that.
Dianac said:Please also read John 12:32 But I, when lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself.
Dianac said:Awesome, sounds good, but not biblical. Sorry. This theory hinges on the concept of particular redemption which does not boast a single verse in it's support. Ed proved it, Calvinists admitted.
nobdysfool said:As has been pointed out repeatedly, "all" very rarely means "all without exception" or "every last one", in the bible.
holdon said:See: Calvinist tamper with God's Word. "All" is not really "all". "The whole world" is not really "the whole world."
It reminds me of the serpent saying: "hath God really said"??
holdon said:See: Calvinist tamper with God's Word. "All" is not really "all". "The whole world" is not really "the whole world."
It reminds me of the serpent saying: "hath God really said"??
It was no dodge concerning Trinity.Defcon said:Yes, what a terrible, terrible doctrine that causes us to delve into the scriptures to determine what Christ's intended end was in His atonement. From there we may have to read more scripture to see Christ is only fulfilling the role of high priest if he not only atones but intercedes for those He was sacrificed for. From such explorations we must answer questions such as "Did Christ fail in what He intended to do?"; "Could He have failed and saved none at all?"; "If He intercedes for all those He died for, why aren't all saved?" - as if we must move on past our spiritual milk and on to meat, heaven forbid .
Beyond your constant dodging of proving the Trinity, how about showing one verse where it says that men have equally the same free-will to choose Christ - oh and that doesn't mean that you can "imply" free-will as your standards rule out such thought. So now you have 2 challenges - the Trinity and free-will; prove them by your standards.
Actually, I am an Armenian, not an Arminian.nobdysfool said:And so you elevate the receiver above the Giver, and thereby rob God of His Glory. Such is the end of Arminian doctrine, it robs God of His Rightful Glory, by claiming that a part of His Work originated in you.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, "all" very rarely means "all without exception" or "every last one", in the bible. This verse must be taken in context, and also with many other scriptures which clearly show that "all" DOESN'T mean "all without exception". In short, one must study, compare, and exegete, and apply sound and prayerful reasoning to the scriptures to discern their true meaning.
Arminians on the whole don't and won't do that. They are like would-be miners who spend their time looking for the gems above ground, because it's too dark, dangerous, and difficult to dig for them. If it isn't laying out in direct sunlight, they claim it doesn't exist, because they can't see it.
Ed proved nothing except his own bias and lack of knowledge. Particular Redemption, which is really Particular Atonement, another name for Limited Atonement, IS biblical, and several posts prior to this one have shown strong evidence of it.
Arminians don't like it, because it removes from them the secret pride they have of being smart enough and good enough to "accept Christ", and thereby avoid the Judgment. That secret pride has a guilty side, too, so they make up the idea that Jesus died for all indiscriminately, so they can tell everyone that Jesus died for them and assuage their conscience, and explain away the obvious fact that not all are saved by blaming the unsaved, claiming that Jesus died for all, but they don't benefit unless they ACCEPT it.
The truth is, Arminians believe in a limited Atonement, too. They claim it is limited by man, not by God. That is, if they ever think through their doctrine far enough to see the glaring contradiction between fantasy and reality....
Sorry, Diane, but you have need of instruction to learn the way of God more perfectly than you currently do....
Sure it was for Israel only. But the gospel also spread to the rest of the world, the Gentiles. And after the resurrection atonement was also applied appropriately.Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:Want to know why semi-pelagians will not answer the question of "who did God command the high priest to offer atonement for on Yom Kippur by the sprinkling of blood on the Mercy Seat?", it is, because it was for Israel and Israel only, limited atonement, and they realize it destroys their false doctrines of Atonement.
Wesley struggled with that mightily, but ultimately relied on the semi-pelagian philosophy rather than Scripture.
Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" - particular atonement for the churchEdial said:It was no dodge concerning Trinity.
The topic was that there are no verses to prove the Limited Atonement.
And there are verses that flatly state that christ died for all.
But concerning Trinity, I answered it below.
Here is my re-post.
Re-post -----------------------
. A word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.
Trinity - one God in three persons.
One God in three persons is defined clearly in the Bible.
MT 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
"Name" is singular. One God in three persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit).
The words "Limited Atonement" are not mentioned in the Bible.
Limited Atonement - Christ died ONLY for the elect.
And there are no verses that Christ died ONLY for the elect.
end of re-post-------------------------
Thanks,
Ed
Let's look at this text -Ron151 said:...All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44
.....
Defcon said:Mark 10:45 " For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." - Unversal atonement would have us believe the ransom was for all - contradicted by this verse.