Why isn't the Limited Atonement Doctrine not taught anymore?

[Edial]

Hey you want to hear a good one?

"the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all"

.
You see Defcon, "many" does not necessarily mean a part of a whole, but an amount, a quantity.

Ex. Everyone that ever lived is in this room. There are many souls in this room.

RO 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

You see? "Many" is a quantity. A number. Large number.
If you eqate "many" with "all" then you will state that all will be made righteous in v.19.

And I do not think you believe that.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[nobdysfool]

Actually, I am an Armenian, not an Arminian.

Thanks,
Ed

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Absolutely nothing!

I don't care if you call yourself a purple-crested thipwhipple, the doctrines you espouse and post are Arminian, as in those doctrines taught by the followers of Jacobus Arminius, also known as the Remonstrants.

We wear the label of Calvinist because we are not ashamed of the Doctrines of Grace. I see Arminians all the time who try to say they're not, because they think that somehow that will lend weight to their arguments, as supposed "Biblical Christians" without labels. It is all for naught.

A rose by any other name still has thorns.

 

[Ron151]

Edial

You posted our Lord gave himself as a RANSOM for all. O.K, since you believe Christ gave himself as a ransom, just what do you believe he ransomed all men from? Was this a finished ransom or what?

 

[holdon]

Edial

You posted our Lord gave himself as a RANSOM for all. O.K, since you believe Christ gave himself as a ransom, just what do you believe he ransomed all men from? Was this a finished ransom or what?

Why are you twisting what's being said? The Bible says: Christ gave himself a ransom for all. Nobody, nor the bible nor Edial nor I said that Christ ransomed all men.

Please read.

 

[Ron151]

holden

Please re read post #61

 

[HITR]

After I typed this up, I went back to both of our posts that spurred all of this discussion. I think I now know where these questions are coming from but, since it's all typed and it took me a while, I'm going to post this anyway. Did you read all of my post, or did you perhaps miss the edited portion that I did for clarification prior to your posting this? You posted shortly after I did, and I can't help but think you missed the edit? Anywho, I'm sending it through...

If the Word is quite clear that he died ONLY for all that believe - where?

Those who believe and those who do not believe are referred to pretty clearly in several places throughout the Word. It’s stated quite clear in John 3:16-18, which you probably already know.

I oftentimes hear verse 16 cited with regard to our mighty God’s love; you know, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Yet far too often, many stop right there. While 16 tells of his passionate love and unyielding promise to those that believe, the following verse tells how they are to be saved. “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” They are to be saved through him, the Lord Jesus. So at this point, in just two verses, we can see well how those that believe in him shall not die; rather, they will have life with God infinitely. These of belief will be saved through Jesus, the Christ, praise be to God! So those being the believers, the ones that do not believe are spoken to in verse 18. ”He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Those that do not believe have heard the gospel and have not believed. They are condemned.

Now, as for where I might see that “He died ONLY for those that believe,” that’s not really what I said at all. I said that He died for ALL that believe. And He did. But first, define “belief.” Is it all that think they believe, but really don’t? Because I am convinced that’s quite possible, especially in light of Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Belief alone, without faith, does not bring about regeneration in a man. This is the perfect doctrine of grace. That’s why faith alone is required for the process of regeneration by the mighty Spirit of God. You know the Scriptures on this as well, I’m rather confident, but just for the sake of it, I’ll offer Hebrews 11:6 for ya: ”But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” In order to have any faith, there must be belief. One can’t have faith in something they don’t even believe in. It is faith that brings about genuine good works, as a byproduct. Therefore, we may only boast that ”For by grace are ye saved though faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. What are we saved for? We are saved unto good works! The most glorious gospel! We are saved by God’s grace, though our faith in Him! That’s it, and for all that believe and will place their faith in Him, they will be born again of the Spirit, and regeneration will begin. For those that don’t believe they are, again, condemned already.

This speaks nothing to those that haven’t heard, and until one hears or not hears, one cannot believe or disbelieve. One must hear in order to make that determination of whether or not they believe it. ”How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” Romans 10:14 Jesus’ entire ministry involved preaching. Whether He was healing the sick, forgiving sins, feeding the people, whatever…it all revolved around preaching. The apostles followed after their Lord in like manner, as must we, so they may hear and might believe. Even in the OT, faith by preaching saved. Isaiah is an excellent example! Faith saved many, even then. **nods**

This is a major portion of the gospel, and I now feel like I’ve preached a sermon!

There are verses that state that ... [clip] ... and so on.

Yea, I’m sure we could both quote several verses back and forth. I’m going to avoid doing that at this point with all of those, unless there’s something specific you want to talk about. I’m sure this will be quite long, as it is!

Now, if you believe that the Trinity is an appropriate analogy and you are comparing (or elevating) your opinion to the value of that of the Trinity - no problem. Your opinion. Your elevation. Your choice.

Really, there are no hard feelings on this one.

Where did I make any kind of statement where I even alluded it to being an analogy, let alone an appropriate one? Please, check again. And I agree, no hard feelings.

It is good however, to see that Calvinists are coming out and presenting (in their own words of course) that there indeed is no Scriptural proof that he died only for the elect. Opinion, yes, conclusion, yes, but no proof.

Thank,
Ed

Well, I’m just getting back into posting, after a long hiatus, and I haven’t really seen any of that yet. So that’s neat to hear ‘n all, but I’m not sure what this has to do with my post, or anything that I’ve said? Calvinism and I don’t blend too well together, so you’re just kinda losing me. If I’m missing something, please just feel free to let me know. I'm guessing you think I'm a Calvinist? **shrug**


Blessings, HITR

 

[HITR]

Your passage in Titus does not use the explicit, specific language that states plainly God is a Trinity. It has to be inferred or concluded.

I did a different thread on this very topic in the General Theology section. You can see what I said there, but a clearer example is Romans 8. I just wanted to seperate the trinity issue from the OP of limited atonement, so if it's all the same to you I'll leave this as just a notation to that and let you choose to go read it if you like. And more than just the trinity or election of the saints must be concluded, regardless of the position. Jesus is God, there's one right there. And a biggie at that!

I contend that you will not employ the same method for those as you do for Titus.

Well, that's your prerogative, and you're welcome to it! You're just now getting to meet and talk with me. We really know esentially nothing about one another, and what one another believes. You've already made up your mind about how I would go about approaching doctrine, and I'm all set with that sort of thing. Perhaps this is a good litmus test for me here. As for the rest, I'm not convinced I see the fruitfulness of it, so I'll just leave it at this, and bid you well.

God bless, HITR

 

[HITR]

If Christ REALLY took upon himself the sins of the entire world, then why are NON believers who died, now in hell? You say because of a lack of faith.

Actually, it is the Word that says lack of faith in terms of those that don’t believe. ”He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:18

But Christ died 2,000+ years ago long BEFORE these individuals were born and lived out their earthly lives. Did Christ REALLY take their sins upon them BEFORE they were born?

Even in the days of old, those who believed God by faith were saved. Abraham, Noah, David, Habakkuk…this is throughout the OT, even before Christ’s coming. Salvation has always been through faith, and Jesus existed prior to his earthly coming. Are we to believe that the very same Word that saves us now could not do so then, when God’s people believed by faith?

Did Christ take YOUR SINS upon him before you were born.

Yes, by faith I believe that He did. (29) ”Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (30) And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: (31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:29-31 I see no hope for any of us were this not to be true. But the very nature of faith is stated quite clearly in Hebrews 11:1, ”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

The father draws all his elect BY HIS SPIRIT, through the gospel.

John 12:32 gives a different picture of who will be drawn to God through the gospel: ” And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” We are, afterall, to be preaching the cross of Christ, and all that goes along with that act of grace and mercy. Romans 5:18 bears witness to this as well: ”Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” In regard to those that lived 2,000 years before Christ, the gospel was even given in the OT: (1) Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will show thee: (2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: (3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” Genesis 12:1-3, which is reiterated in Galatians 3:8-9, ” And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44

This is true, and Jesus said that he would draw all men to Him. It’s not about who will come, but that he said he would draw all to him. We can clearly see where all who come to Him are drawn, but we don't clearly see that all who are drawn, come. Remember, ” For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all work together to bring the elect to salvation and eternal life.

Amen, I believe that too! I also believe that ”many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14, and I also see the invitation given to the masses in general, being all those who hear: (37) ” In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”


Blessings, HITR

 

[Beoga]

A Spurgeon question that I am curious to hear a response to:
If Christ died for all without excpetion, did He die for those that were already in Hell? If so, what was the purpose of His death for these people?

 

[HITR]

And so you elevate the receiver above the Giver, and thereby rob God of His Glory.

It takes great humility before God to receive such a powerful gift as grace. It is pride that urges us to reject God's gift, and that is all about us. It is humility that brings us to receive such a wonderous gift, and that is all about God. That is the most humbling thing one can do, is admit before almighty God that they cannot save themselves and must rely on a Saviour. That is giving all the glory to God, so I'm not sure why it is necessary to believe that by humbling oneself before the Lord our God is somehow robbing Him of His rightful glory. In fact, we are commanded to do just that, humble ourselves before our God and receive what He has for us...what He can do in us and through us that we ourselves cannot accomplish. In order to even receive a gift from anyone that we can see, mortal as we are, we must either 1) be humble, if the gift is truly a gift and we are not keeping score, or 2) we are keeping score, are able to receive the gift without humility, of which is truly is not a "gift" and we are not humble.

Blessings, HITR

 

[ascribe2thelord]

I have been reading Dr Robert Morey's book on the Atonement. He defends the position of the limited or particular atonement. He cites only about five authors who really go in depth on this subject. All of the authors are now dead. So that makes me wonder, is the doctrine of a limited atonement been abandoned in Baptist and evangelical churches today? I watch John Hagee and Charles Stanley on TV and I never hear them preach on it, but they simply tell the viewing audience that Christ has died for you or for all men in general. I guess my question is, why have gospel preachers stopped preaching this doctrine?

Limited Atonement isn't in the Bible. Read the book of John - it says that Christ atoned for all the sins of the world. That doesn't make everyone justified, though... only if you have faith in that atonement can you be justified.

 

[HITR]

A Spurgeon question that I am curious to hear a response to:
If Christ died for all without excpetion, did He die for those that were already in Hell? If so, what was the purpose of His death for these people?

That really is a great question, littleapologist. I love questions that get me thinking deeper about my faith and the things of God.

I believe that, yes, He did die for those that were already in Hell. As for the purpose of His death for those people, I'd say it was the same as it was for those that were already saved by faith. Those that have gone before, prior to Christ's coming, had already chosen to believe God by faith or not. That didn't change after their death, faith or faithless. I don't believe that the purpose of Jesus' death was for those saved or not (that puts the focus on men), but rather for the sake of the the fulfillment of the law (which keeps the focus on God and His righteousness), in accordance to God's righteousness. Just as with the baptism of Jesus, which was to fulfill all righteousness, such is true with all that Jesus did, I believe. He lived righteously. He preached righteously. He died righteously. A blood sacrifice was required as the penalty for sin, and that pure sacrifice was fulfilled in Christs death. The OT shows the need for such a sacrifice all throughout. Once the genuine sacrifice was made on the cross, the law had been fulfilled and those that believe by faith are no longer under the law. Those who are not of the faith, and are in hell, remain under the law for the judgment.

Even Abraham, in his day, was found to be righteous on account of his faith. Galatians 3:7-11: (7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. The gospel was given in the OT, and David often spoke of the coming of the Messiah, as did others in the days of old. By faith, they believed.

I know I went off a bit more than you were looking for in regard to faith, but I felt it important, and in direct relation to those that are of faith and those that remain under the law (whether OT or NT), so....

Nice to meet you, btw.

Many blessings, HITR

 

[holdon]

A Spurgeon question that I am curious to hear a response to:
If Christ died for all without excpetion, did He die for those that were already in Hell? If so, what was the purpose of His death for these people?

Christ did die for all. Not: "if". And there is yet nobody in hell, the lake of fire. For that you have to wait till Revelation 19.

 

[Edial]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Absolutely nothing!

I don't care if you call yourself a purple-crested thipwhipple, the doctrines you espouse and post are Arminian, as in those doctrines taught by the followers of Jacobus Arminius, also known as the Remonstrants.

We wear the label of Calvinist because we are not ashamed of the Doctrines of Grace. I see Arminians all the time who try to say they're not, because they think that somehow that will lend weight to their arguments, as supposed "Biblical Christians" without labels. It is all for naught.

A rose by any other name still has thorns.

Do you believe that the Christian world is separated in two groups, Calvinists and Arminians?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Calvin's Last Will and Testament revealed that he repeneted of the Limited Atonement doctrine.
I am adding this to the previous answer to kw5kw, since I have Calvin's quotes at hand.

</FONT>Those who have not only read but understand the deep theological meaning in John Calvin's "Institues of the Christian Religion" are able to grasp the fact that all true Christians are of the 'elect', and therefore all true Christians will be saved because Christ died for their sins. Up until a couple of months ago, I must admit, I was leaning more towards Amyraldianism myself -- that is, until I started reading Book 3, Chapter 2-5 plus Book 2, Chapter 17 and back to book 3 chapter 21-25.

All I can say is there is just way, way too much to type in here. What most people don't understand about those who understand John Calvin's doctrine, is we're assured of being there -- are you so sure?

"Deep theological meanings" in John Calvin's Institutes are understood the best by John Calvin, the author.
And, in his his Last Will and Testament and other Commentaries he repented of the doctrine of the Limited Atonement -

Quote: Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564" as printed in the History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, pp. 828-29, by Philip Schaff [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids, 1972], states: "I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...."(op. cit., p 829). Here is a clear testimony made by John Calvin who was about to die, in 1564, that He, at least at the end of his life, had come to believe most definitely that the Lord Jesus Christ "SHED" his precious "BLOOD" "FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE "



Quote: The three below commentaries are offered as encouragement that ALL are called to salvation by God.1 John 2:2--"he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world"--Commentary as follows: "CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. and in the goodness of God is OFFERED UNTO ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION, HIS BLOOD BEING SHED NOT FOR A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since without exception he SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope."

Mark 14:24 -- "And He said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY." Commentary as follows: "The word many DOES GOT MEAN A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE: he contrasts many with one as if to say that he would not be the Redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. No doubt that in speaking to a few Christ wished to make His teaching available to a larger number...So when we come to the holy table not only should the general idea come to our mind that THE WORLD IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST but also each should reckon to himself that his own sins are covered."

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Comment as follows: "Paul makes grace COMMON TO ALL MEN, not because it in fact EXTENDS TO ALL, but because IT IS OFFERED TO ALL. Although CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. AND IS OFFERED BY THE GOODNESS OF GOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION TO ALL MEN, yet not all receive him."

John Calvin

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DIANAC]

But it does.

Originally Posted by: Edial Actually, I am an Armenian, not an Arminian.

Thanks,
Ed


What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Absolutely nothing!

Ed is saving us alot of unnecessary posts. Someone will call him Armenian meaning Arminian. Someone else will correct the obvious mistake and posts a map of country Armenia. And then Ed will say that he is not Arminian. And I usually say that it is a good thing that you are not, imagine being Armenian Arminian. To that someone will add that it could be worse if Ed was Calvinist Armenian. So, Ed cleared up for us alot of confusion.
Just a little levity will do this thread good.
Diana

 

[Edial]

After I typed this up, I went back to both of our posts that spurred all of this discussion. I think I now know where these questions are coming from but, since it's all typed and it took me a while, I'm going to post this anyway. Did you read all of my post, or did you perhaps miss the edited portion that I did for clarification prior to your posting this? You posted shortly after I did, and I can't help but think you missed the edit? Anywho, I'm sending it through...



Those who believe and those who do not believe are referred to pretty clearly in several places throughout the Word. It’s stated quite clear in John 3:16-18, which you probably already know.

I oftentimes hear verse 16 cited with regard to our mighty God’s love; you know, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Yet far too often, many stop right there. While 16 tells of his passionate love and unyielding promise to those that believe, the following verse tells how they are to be saved. “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” They are to be saved through him, the Lord Jesus. So at this point, in just two verses, we can see well how those that believe in him shall not die; rather, they will have life with God infinitely. These of belief will be saved through Jesus, the Christ, praise be to God! So those being the believers, the ones that do not believe are spoken to in verse 18. ”He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Those that do not believe have heard the gospel and have not believed. They are condemned.

Now, as for where I might see that “He died ONLY for those that believe,” that’s not really what I said at all. I said that He died for ALL that believe. And He did. But first, define “belief.” Is it all that think they believe, but really don’t? Because I am convinced that’s quite possible, especially in light of Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Belief alone, without faith, does not bring about regeneration in a man. This is the perfect doctrine of grace. That’s why faith alone is required for the process of regeneration by the mighty Spirit of God. You know the Scriptures on this as well, I’m rather confident, but just for the sake of it, I’ll offer Hebrews 11:6 for ya: ”But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” In order to have any faith, there must be belief. One can’t have faith in something they don’t even believe in. It is faith that brings about genuine good works, as a byproduct. Therefore, we may only boast that ”For by grace are ye saved though faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. What are we saved for? We are saved unto good works! The most glorious gospel! We are saved by God’s grace, though our faith in Him! That’s it, and for all that believe and will place their faith in Him, they will be born again of the Spirit, and regeneration will begin. For those that don’t believe they are, again, condemned already.

This speaks nothing to those that haven’t heard, and until one hears or not hears, one cannot believe or disbelieve. One must hear in order to make that determination of whether or not they believe it. ”How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?” Romans 10:14 Jesus’ entire ministry involved preaching. Whether He was healing the sick, forgiving sins, feeding the people, whatever…it all revolved around preaching. The apostles followed after their Lord in like manner, as must we, so they may hear and might believe. Even in the OT, faith by preaching saved. Isaiah is an excellent example! Faith saved many, even then. **nods**

This is a major portion of the gospel, and I now feel like I’ve preached a sermon!



Yea, I’m sure we could both quote several verses back and forth. I’m going to avoid doing that at this point with all of those, unless there’s something specific you want to talk about. I’m sure this will be quite long, as it is!



Where did I make any kind of statement where I even alluded it to being an analogy, let alone an appropriate one? Please, check again. And I agree, no hard feelings.



Well, I’m just getting back into posting, after a long hiatus, and I haven’t really seen any of that yet. So that’s neat to hear ‘n all, but I’m not sure what this has to do with my post, or anything that I’ve said? Calvinism and I don’t blend too well together, so you’re just kinda losing me. If I’m missing something, please just feel free to let me know. I'm guessing you think I'm a Calvinist? **shrug**


Blessings, HITR

Aah, ... I actually butted into your conversation and presumed it applied to my conversation and responded assuming and presuming this and that and one thing led to another and "no" I did not read the edited in part and ... should we start again?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Defcon]

.
You see Defcon, "many" does not necessarily mean a part of a whole, but an amount, a quantity.

Ex. Everyone that ever lived is in this room. There are many souls in this room.

RO 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

You see? "Many" is a quantity. A number. Large number.
If you eqate "many" with "all" then you will state that all will be made righteous in v.19.

And I do not think you believe that.

Thanks,
Ed

This isn't even worth refuting. I posted 5 other verses - you all jump on the one that you think you can defend and move on with the argument. What a joke.

 

[Edial]

This isn't even worth refuting. I posted 5 other verses - you all jump on the one that you think you can defend and move on with the argument. What a joke.

No problem. I kind of answered it under holdon's post, since he addressed it.
Let's address the rest of the verses you presented.
But before I do, what do you think concerning the word "many" as an amount, a quesntity and not a part of a whole?
Did you think that the Romans quote was clarifying enough to see that?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

It takes great humility before God to receive such a powerful gift as grace. It is pride that urges us to reject God's gift, and that is all about us. It is humility that brings us to receive such a wonderous gift, and that is all about God. That is the most humbling thing one can do, is admit before almighty God that they cannot save themselves and must rely on a Saviour. That is giving all the glory to God, so I'm not sure why it is necessary to believe that by humbling oneself before the Lord our God is somehow robbing Him of His rightful glory. In fact, we are commanded to do just that, humble ourselves before our God and receive what He has for us...what He can do in us and through us that we ourselves cannot accomplish. In order to even receive a gift from anyone that we can see, mortal as we are, we must either 1) be humble, if the gift is truly a gift and we are not keeping score, or 2) we are keeping score, are able to receive the gift without humility, of which is truly is not a "gift" and we are not humble.

Blessings, HITR

Very well put,

Thanks,
Ed