Why isn't the Limited Atonement Doctrine not taught anymore?

[Sentry]

"propitiation".

Seems to me it would be more appropriate to define hilasterion.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

If the Word is quite clear that he died ONLY for all that believe - where?

There are verses that state that he died for the Church, but not only for the Church.

I can show a verse that he died for one person, does that mean that he died ONLY for that one person?

I can show many verses that he died for all, the whole world and so on.

The Limited Atonement is a conclusion upon which the Calvinism stands.
That's all I am pointing out.

Now, if you believe that the Trinity is an appropriate analogy and you are comparing (or elevating) your opinion to the value of that of the Trinity - no problem. Your opinion. Your elevation. Your choice.

Really, there are no hard feelings on this one.

It is good however, to see that Calvinists are coming out and presenting (in their own words of course) that there indeed is no Scriptural proof that he died only for the elect.

Opinion, yes, conclusion, yes, but no proof.

Thank,
Ed

You see Ed, using your twisted standard for "proof" makes the doctrine of the Trinity without "proof".

Somehow, you have been deceived into thinking that unless something is written in cast iron, explicit language that meets your own twisted standards, that it is not "proof".

Unfortunately, you have failed to realize that the vast majority of Scripture forces one into making conclusions.

There is not one single verse where Jesus says in explicit, cast iron language, " I am God". Not a single one.

Scripture forces everyone into drawing conclusions. You included, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Has already been defined.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Matthew 20:
27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Matthew 26;
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new[c] covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Seems to me it would be more appropriate to define hilasterion.

"hilasterion" refers to the "place of propitiation" and corresponds to the Mercy Seat. The OT Hebrew word that corresponds with "hilasterion" is "kapporeth", which means primarily, "lid" as in the Mercy Seat.

I have asked many of the semi-pelagians who contend that Christ was the propitiation for the entirety of humanity without exception, just whom God commanded the high priest to offer atonement for on Yom Kippur. They refuse to answer.

On Yom Kippur, "The Day of Atonement", the High Priest sprinkled blood on this mercy seat to cover the sins of Israel (Leviticus 16:14-16) – but not the sins of those outside Israel. This ritual foreshadowed in type and picture the work of Jesus Christ as High Priest making propitiation for the sins of His people with His own blood, thereby covering their sins and appeasing the wrath of God.

Yom Kippur forshadowed the Atonement of Christ, for the "sins of My people".

The Atonement of propitiation on Yom Kippur was limited atonement, as was the substance of the foreshadow that Christ accomplished on the Cross.

 

[Ron151]

If Christ REALLY took upon himself the sins of the entire world, then why are NON believers who died, now in hell? You say because of a lack of faith. But Christ died 2,000+ years ago long BEFORE these individuals were born and lived out their earthly lives. Did Christ REALLY take their sins upon them BEFORE they were born? Did Christ take YOUR SINS upon him before you were born. If he did then your sins were forgiven. Christ's death really accomplished what he set out to do. To lay down his life for HIS SHEEP.

You say what about faith? Faith is not a work of the death of Christ, but a work of the Holy Spirit. Is that not true? And the Father from the foundation of the world knew whom he would choose. The father draws all his elect BY HIS SPIRIT, through the gospel. All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all work together to bring the elect to salvation and eternal life. The elect come from both Jews and the Gentiles. The world of the elect. I believe this is the awesome truth from God's word.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

If Christ REALLY took upon himself the sins of the entire world, then why are NON believers who died, now in hell? You say because of a lack of faith. But Christ died 2,000+ years ago long BEFORE these individuals were born and lived out their earthly lives. Did Christ REALLY take their sins upon them BEFORE they were born? Did Christ take YOUR SINS upon him before you were born. If he did then your sins were forgiven. Christ's death really accomplished what he set out to do. To lay down his life for HIS SHEEP.

You say what about faith? Faith is not a work of the death of Christ, but a work of the Holy Spirit. Is that not true? And the Father from the foundation of the world knew whom he would choose. The father draws all his elect BY HIS SPIRIT, through the gospel. All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all work together to bring the elect to salvation and eternal life. The elect come from both Jews and the Gentiles. The world of the elect. I believe this is the awesome truth from God's word.

Well said Ron.

Welcome brother. Glad to meet you on this side of the River.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Want to know why semi-pelagians will not answer the question of "who did God command the high priest to offer atonement for on Yom Kippur by the sprinkling of blood on the Mercy Seat?", it is, because it was for Israel and Israel only, limited atonement, and they realize it destroys their false doctrines of Atonement.

Wesley struggled with that mightily, but ultimately relied on the semi-pelagian philosophy rather than Scripture.

 

[cygnusx1]

"hilasterion" refers to the "place of propitiation" and corresponds to the Mercy Seat. The OT Hebrew word that corresponds with "hilasterion" is "kapporeth", which means primarily, "lid" as in the Mercy Seat.

I have asked many of the semi-pelagians who contend that Christ was the propitiation for the entirety of humanity without exception, just whom God commanded the high priest to offer atonement for on Yom Kippur. They refuse to answer.

On Yom Kippur, "The Day of Atonement", the High Priest sprinkled blood on this mercy seat to cover the sins of Israel (Leviticus 16:14-16) – but not the sins of those outside Israel. This ritual foreshadowed in type and picture the work of Jesus Christ as High Priest making propitiation for the sins of His people with His own blood, thereby covering their sins and appeasing the wrath of God.

Yom Kippur forshadowed the Atonement of Christ, for the "sins of My people".

The Atonement of propitiation on Yom Kippur was limited atonement, as was the substance of the foreshadow that Christ accomplished on the Cross.

absolutely right AWC , and if the OT Types and Metaphors , Spiritual teachings are consistant with the NT , (they are) then we should expect continuity ....... ie, there is no covering , atonement , expiation , propitiation for Cannanites , Hittites , Jebusites , Cushites , Egyptians etc etc ............ it was and is and ever shall be an Atonement for God's People ....... we are the True Israel .

Furthermore all High Priests after offering up a sacrifice are duty bound to pray for those and only those for whom it is shed.
Atonement and Intercession are inseperable (I pray NOT for the world)

likewise the point of intimate Love ............ Christ and His bride , the Church is certainly spoken of as being "bought with a price" ......... who doesn't love their own body ?

Christ is said to give Himself for the Church ............ deep intimate Love is the heart of Redemption ....... take away Love and there is no Prime mover in Redemption....

 

[DIANAC]

Ron151,

If Christ REALLY took upon himself the sins of the entire world, then why are NON believers who died, now in hell? You say because of a lack of faith. But Christ died 2,000+ years ago long BEFORE these individuals were born and lived out their earthly lives. Did Christ REALLY take their sins upon them BEFORE they were born? Did Christ take YOUR SINS upon him before you were born. If he did then your sins were forgiven. Christ's death really accomplished what he set out to do. To lay down his life for HIS SHEEP.

Because gift requires receiving. There are plenty of verses to support that.

You say what about faith? Faith is not a work of the death of Christ, but a work of the Holy Spirit. Is that not true? And the Father from the foundation of the world knew whom he would choose. The father draws all his elect BY HIS SPIRIT, through the gospel. All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44

Please also read John 12:32 But I, when lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all work together to bring the elect to salvation and eternal life. The elect come from both Jews and the Gentiles. The world of the elect. I believe this is the awesome truth from God's word.

Awesome, sounds good, but not biblical. Sorry. This theory hinges on the concept of particular redemption which does not boast a single verse in it's support. Ed proved it, Calvinists admitted.
be well,
Diana

 

[nobdysfool]

Because gift requires receiving. There are plenty of verses to support that.

And so you elevate the receiver above the Giver, and thereby rob God of His Glory. Such is the end of Arminian doctrine, it robs God of His Rightful Glory, by claiming that a part of His Work originated in you.

Please also read John 12:32 But I, when lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, "all" very rarely means "all without exception" or "every last one", in the bible. This verse must be taken in context, and also with many other scriptures which clearly show that "all" DOESN'T mean "all without exception". In short, one must study, compare, and exegete, and apply sound and prayerful reasoning to the scriptures to discern their true meaning.

Arminians on the whole don't and won't do that. They are like would-be miners who spend their time looking for the gems above ground, because it's too dark, dangerous, and difficult to dig for them. If it isn't laying out in direct sunlight, they claim it doesn't exist, because they can't see it.

Awesome, sounds good, but not biblical. Sorry. This theory hinges on the concept of particular redemption which does not boast a single verse in it's support. Ed proved it, Calvinists admitted.

Ed proved nothing except his own bias and lack of knowledge. Particular Redemption, which is really Particular Atonement, another name for Limited Atonement, IS biblical, and several posts prior to this one have shown strong evidence of it.

Arminians don't like it, because it removes from them the secret pride they have of being smart enough and good enough to "accept Christ", and thereby avoid the Judgment. That secret pride has a guilty side, too, so they make up the idea that Jesus died for all indiscriminately, so they can tell everyone that Jesus died for them and assuage their conscience, and explain away the obvious fact that not all are saved by blaming the unsaved, claiming that Jesus died for all, but they don't benefit unless they ACCEPT it.

The truth is, Arminians believe in a limited Atonement, too. They claim it is limited by man, not by God. That is, if they ever think through their doctrine far enough to see the glaring contradiction between fantasy and reality....

Sorry, Diane, but you have need of instruction to learn the way of God more perfectly than you currently do....

 

[holdon]

As has been pointed out repeatedly, "all" very rarely means "all without exception" or "every last one", in the bible.

See: Calvinist tamper with God's Word. "All" is not really "all". "The whole world" is not really "the whole world."

It reminds me of the serpent saying: "hath God really said"??

 

[nobdysfool]

See: Calvinist tamper with God's Word. "All" is not really "all". "The whole world" is not really "the whole world."

It reminds me of the serpent saying: "hath God really said"??

Been mining for any gems lately? Or do you expect them to be laying out in the sun?

Thanks for proving my point....

 

[nobdysfool]

See: Calvinist tamper with God's Word. "All" is not really "all". "The whole world" is not really "the whole world."

It reminds me of the serpent saying: "hath God really said"??

And God can't do anything unless man lets Him...Yeah, I see....

 

[Edial]

Yes, what a terrible, terrible doctrine that causes us to delve into the scriptures to determine what Christ's intended end was in His atonement. From there we may have to read more scripture to see Christ is only fulfilling the role of high priest if he not only atones but intercedes for those He was sacrificed for. From such explorations we must answer questions such as "Did Christ fail in what He intended to do?"; "Could He have failed and saved none at all?"; "If He intercedes for all those He died for, why aren't all saved?" - as if we must move on past our spiritual milk and on to meat, heaven forbid .

Beyond your constant dodging of proving the Trinity, how about showing one verse where it says that men have equally the same free-will to choose Christ - oh and that doesn't mean that you can "imply" free-will as your standards rule out such thought. So now you have 2 challenges - the Trinity and free-will; prove them by your standards.

It was no dodge concerning Trinity.
The topic was that there are no verses to prove the Limited Atonement.
And there are verses that flatly state that christ died for all.

But concerning Trinity, I answered it below.
Here is my re-post.
Re-post -----------------------
. A word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.
Trinity - one God in three persons.
One God in three persons is defined clearly in the Bible.

MT 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"Name" is singular. One God in three persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit).


The words "Limited Atonement" are not mentioned in the Bible.
Limited Atonement - Christ died ONLY for the elect.

And there are no verses that Christ died ONLY for the elect.

end of re-post-------------------------

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

And so you elevate the receiver above the Giver, and thereby rob God of His Glory. Such is the end of Arminian doctrine, it robs God of His Rightful Glory, by claiming that a part of His Work originated in you.



As has been pointed out repeatedly, "all" very rarely means "all without exception" or "every last one", in the bible. This verse must be taken in context, and also with many other scriptures which clearly show that "all" DOESN'T mean "all without exception". In short, one must study, compare, and exegete, and apply sound and prayerful reasoning to the scriptures to discern their true meaning.

Arminians on the whole don't and won't do that. They are like would-be miners who spend their time looking for the gems above ground, because it's too dark, dangerous, and difficult to dig for them. If it isn't laying out in direct sunlight, they claim it doesn't exist, because they can't see it.



Ed proved nothing except his own bias and lack of knowledge. Particular Redemption, which is really Particular Atonement, another name for Limited Atonement, IS biblical, and several posts prior to this one have shown strong evidence of it.

Arminians don't like it, because it removes from them the secret pride they have of being smart enough and good enough to "accept Christ", and thereby avoid the Judgment. That secret pride has a guilty side, too, so they make up the idea that Jesus died for all indiscriminately, so they can tell everyone that Jesus died for them and assuage their conscience, and explain away the obvious fact that not all are saved by blaming the unsaved, claiming that Jesus died for all, but they don't benefit unless they ACCEPT it.

The truth is, Arminians believe in a limited Atonement, too. They claim it is limited by man, not by God. That is, if they ever think through their doctrine far enough to see the glaring contradiction between fantasy and reality....

Sorry, Diane, but you have need of instruction to learn the way of God more perfectly than you currently do....

Actually, I am an Armenian, not an Arminian.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Want to know why semi-pelagians will not answer the question of "who did God command the high priest to offer atonement for on Yom Kippur by the sprinkling of blood on the Mercy Seat?", it is, because it was for Israel and Israel only, limited atonement, and they realize it destroys their false doctrines of Atonement.

Wesley struggled with that mightily, but ultimately relied on the semi-pelagian philosophy rather than Scripture.

Sure it was for Israel only. But the gospel also spread to the rest of the world, the Gentiles. And after the resurrection atonement was also applied appropriately.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Defcon]

It was no dodge concerning Trinity.
The topic was that there are no verses to prove the Limited Atonement.
And there are verses that flatly state that christ died for all.

But concerning Trinity, I answered it below.
Here is my re-post.
Re-post -----------------------
. A word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible.
Trinity - one God in three persons.
One God in three persons is defined clearly in the Bible.

MT 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"Name" is singular. One God in three persons (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit).


The words "Limited Atonement" are not mentioned in the Bible.
Limited Atonement - Christ died ONLY for the elect.

And there are no verses that Christ died ONLY for the elect.

end of re-post-------------------------

Thanks,
Ed

Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" - particular atonement for the church

John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep." - particular atonement for "the sheep"

Mark 10:45 " For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." - Unversal atonement would have us believe the ransom was for all - contradicted by this verse.

Hebrews 9:15 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." - ransom was paid for those who are called - and those that are called receive an eternal inheritance. Do all receive this?

John 17:9 " I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." - Christ fulfilling His role as intercessor clearly states He is not praying for the "world" which contradicts universal atonement.


Now that's just a few - stop this nonsense about no Biblical proof. Deal with the sound doctrine of Scripture, not what your presuppositions demand you believe to maintain your case.

 

[Edial]

...All that are the Father's he gives to the Son. And all that he has given to the Son WILL COME. Read John 6:37-44

.....

Let's look at this text -

JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

JN 6:41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven'?"

JN 6:43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who did Jesus come for?
He came for Israel, the 12. He even stated so to one of the women.

Did anyone outside of the 12 believed in him?
No. Even the other disciples scattered when one "dificult" and unpalatable teaching was presented to them.

So, the Father gave him the 12.

Later on, after the resurrection, the Father gave him All the authority.

PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

MT 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

And after that (the resurrection) Christ drew (same Greek word "draw" as in the text you presented) ALL men to him.
JN 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

And ALL are drawn, yet many reject.
Just check out a number of atheists that are here.

Christ cannot be ignored. One time or another in one's life, anyone that hears about him will pay attention, but not ignore.

They even changed the calendar to AD and BC.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[holdon]

Mark 10:45 " For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." - Unversal atonement would have us believe the ransom was for all - contradicted by this verse.

Hey you want to hear a good one?

"the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all"