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Why Islam is not Christian

MoonlessNight

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What do you mean they consider themselves true heirs to the Christian tradition?

Simply that they claim that Jesus and the disciples existed, but followed the way of Islam, and thus that they are following a continuation of what Jesus taught.

It is similar to how Christianity is the true heir of the traditions of Abraham, Israel, Moses, etc. (even though a modern Jew might object to the notion).

Note that I am not saying that they are the heirs, only that they claim they are such. They are pretenders to the throne. But all heretics make false claims.
 
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Michie

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They also believe Jesus will return as a Muslim
Warrior. They see him only as a prophet. Lesser than Mohammed of course. But he will return to kill infidels. Look, it us no wonder people like me are dumbfounded by what the CCC says concerning Islam. I mean they are concerned with depictions of Mohammed but look at what they have done to Jesus. It is not a religion of truth and goodness from my perspective. This does not demean it's followers but it does explain why I think the religion is basically blasphemous.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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While Mohammad was certainly not Christian, he was familiar with some form of Christianity and incorporated elements of it into his new religion.
Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. That's why I think it makes no sense to say that it's derived from Christianity in any way shape or form. They say that they believe in a "Jesus," but it's a different one than ours. It's the same with every other person in the Holy Bible, they use the same names, but it's a totally different set of people.
 
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Michie

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You cannot believe in Jesus and strip him of his divinity, his sacrifice and his identity. It is not the same.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I think we are talking past each other. I need to stress, when I say that something is a heresy I am not trying to suggest that it is "not so bad." In fact, in many ways that makes things worse. For as Jesus said:


That is, those who have seen the truth and rejected it will be worse off than those who never saw it in the first place. And if they reject it firmly, so much the worse for them.

Now let's see the CCC's statement on Muslims:


Note that it says that they will be judged, but not how they will be judged. It says that they worship the Creator, but not that they are unmistaken in their impressions of Him. That they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, but not that they are correct in how they follow Abraham. The only thing that I find potentially objectionable is the phrase "in the first place" which could merely mean that they are the most prominent non-Christian group which claims to follow Abraham, which is certainly true, but could also mean that they have a special place of honor among the religions, which is more questionable.
 
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Armoured

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They say that they believe in a "Jesus," but it's a different one than ours. It's the same with every other person in the Holy Bible, they use the same names, but it's a totally different set of people.
Sooooo... there were two Abrahams, Jesuses et al going about doing remarkably similar things, at similar times, in the same region, completely unknown to each other?

Sure, why not?
 
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MoonlessNight

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Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. That's why I think it makes no sense to say that it's derived from Christianity in any way shape or form.

Just monotheistic belief is enough to distinguish Islam and Christianity from most other world religions. Adding in that God is the creator of all things, that He is truth, goodness and so on, and you have considerably more overlap. Again, I am not really saying this to praise Islam, but I am noting the commonalities.

You cannot believe in Jesus and strip him of his divinity, his sacrifice and his identity. It is not the same.

Arianism did much to strip Jesus of his divinity (making Him a created being), but it is one of the most famous Christian heresies. If Arianism is not a heresy, there are no heresies.

I honestly don't get the impression that seems to run through this thread that being a heretic is somehow a good thing, or at least preferable to being a heathen. That's not the way it's generally been viewed.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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I'd have to look it up, but I think Joseph Smith at least started out as a Christian before he founded Mormonism. But Muhammad wasn't even a Christian to begin with.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I'd have to look it up, but I think Joseph Smith at least started out as a Christian before he founded Mormonism. But Muhammad wasn't even a Christian to begin with.

While details of his life are almost impossible to come by due to interference by scientologists, it seems like that L Ron Hubbard had an at least nominal Christian upbringing. Does this automatically make scientology a Christian heresy?

It seems to me that the problem we are having in this thread is that we are debating whether something is a heresy without a common definition of heresy. Thus there is a lot of talking past each other.
 
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Rhamiel

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Sooooo... there were two Abrahams, Jesuses et al going about doing remarkably similar things, at similar times, in the same region, completely unknown to each other?

Sure, why not?

no, there were not two Jesuses
it is that Islam tells a false narrative about Jesus

think of it something like the novel "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter"
is it about Abraham Lincoln? when the character in the story has different motivations, does different things, has entire speeches and conversations made up, and interacts with characters who are wholly fictional
at what point does a story turn from a true story with some inaccuracies in it to a fictional account?
 
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LivingWordUnity

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That's a good analogy for it.
 
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Armoured

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Tell it to the guy who claimed "but it's a totally different set of people."
 
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MoonlessNight

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I think another matter which makes this issue thornier is the way that things have been emphasized in the world at large. It is possible for something to be true and at the same time to easily be misinterpreted as implying things which are not true.

For another, related, example: I think it is generally agreed that it God will be merciful to those who have not had the chance to hear the Gospel through no fault of their own, though there have been disagreements over whether this means that they can be saved, or if they will be in Limbo, and if either is true how easy it is to obtain such an end (so that the specifics are in debate). But we can say with certainty that God is merciful to all, including non-Christians. And there is nothing objectionable about this truth in and of itself.

However, we can imagine (and maybe some of us don't have to imagine) hearing this message week after week after week, without any counterweight message which stresses the importance of the Church, the good news of Christ, or anything else to show why one should be Christian rather than non-Christian. And in that environment it is easy to think that one may as well not be Christian, since God will be merciful anyway. Something false has been taken as the conclusion of something true, because important truths were omitted creating the wrong context.

If we are addressing the public at large, it is important to consider such things and perhaps avoid discussing certain truths until the proper context can be formed. But in a small forum like this, I think that we can instead strive to be precise and correct any misconceptions as they occur, rather than being worried about how a post might be misinterpreted in the future.

So specifically, it may seem that describing Islam as a Christian heresy means that Islam is close to Christianity and friendly towards it, if that is heard without any other discussion of Islam and Christianity, but in the proper context it doesn't suggest that.
 
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Rhamiel

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I think looking at Islams belief in "Jesus" as the weakest connection between our two religions

we can look at the concept of the Fall of Mankind
hope for a coming Messiah
belief in the concept of Sacred Texts and Prophets
encouragement of fasting, almsgiving, pilgrimages, prayer

in Sufism (a sect within Islam) we can see notions of being spiritually connected to God (similar but not exact as the Christian concept of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit)

in general, with the firm denial of the Trinity and the use of dietary laws, I think Islam is closer to Judaism then Christianity

so yes, Islam is not Christian
but we do have some things in common
it would be foolish to over exaggerate the commonality
just as it would be foolish to deny any commonality
 
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MoonlessNight

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This is how I would view the Muslim position towards God. In some versions of Islam, the picture they have of God may be more inaccurate than the picture one would get of Abraham Lincoln from Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter, but it is an inaccurate picture of the same God.

In terms of what makes a story true or fictional: it is true to the extent it is true, and fictional to the extent it is fictional. That is, if an account of Lincoln is accurate except for claiming he made some offhand remark that he did not, then it is fictional with respect to that remark but otherwise truthful. On the contrary, while I have not read Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter, I am sure that it does contain some truth statements about him (in particular, that he was president in the nineteenth century) and in those details it is truthful.

The terms "true story" and "fictional account" have more to do with the intent of the author than the overall accuracy. There are "true stories" which are mistakenly inaccurate and "fictional accounts" which coincidentally end up describing real events.

A story about Abraham Lincoln would stop being "about" the president if it made it clear that the character was a different person (such as by having a story in the future with a person named after the president, but not actually the president), or if the story made no attempt to identify the character with the president and had nothing in common with him beyond the name.
 
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bill5

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Islam rejects every belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions.
As others have pointed out, hardly. But it is a religion with sharp distinctions from Christianity in various ways, including the most important ones, ie Jesus' divinity, etc. Beyond that, tbh I don't get the flap over whether Islam is "Christian heresy" or not. Unless you're doing a case study on the word "heresy," it seems rather pedantic to me.
 
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