Why is virginity mocked?

[mmksparbud]

Well, this is open to all forums, but this place advertises itself as Christian Forums--so it can be a little misleading as one is apt to think that the question asked is for Christians, who shouldn't be mocking any virgin to begin with as that is something that Gods asks us to keep between a married man and woman--what the non-christian thinks isn't going to be remotely similar to what a chritian thinks and the 2 sides are never going to agree. Any christian who says having sex outside of marriage is ok doesn't know God nor what He says on the subject and probably could care less. He just wants to do whatever he wants and not feel guilty about it, so he, too, will ignore what God says. Free will. But there are consequences to all our actions, some we won't find out about till we're face to face with God, and then, well--it'll be a little late.

 

[selfinflikted]

Well, this is open to all forums, but this place advertises itself as Christian Forums--so it can be a little misleading as one is apt to think that the question asked is for Christians, who shouldn't be mocking any virgin to begin with as that is something that Gods asks us to keep between a married man and woman--what the non-christian thinks isn't going to be remotely similar to what a chritian thinks and the 2 sides are never going to agree. Any christian who says having sex outside of marriage is ok doesn't know God nor what He says on the subject and probably could care less. He just wants to do whatever he wants and not feel guilty about it, so he, too, will ignore what God says. Free will. But there are consequences to all our actions, some we won't find out about till we're face to face with God, and then, well--it'll be a little late.

I simply cannot fathom that a god, creator of the entire universe and all in it, would smite me and banish me to hell for all eternity for bending to a perfectly natural desire to have sex.

To quote an extremely brilliant and insightful woman, Judge Judith Sheindlin, "If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true."

 

[KarateCowboy]

I simply cannot fathom that a god, creator of the entire universe and all in it, would smite me and banish me to hell for all eternity for bending to a perfectly natural desire to have sex.

To quote an extremely brilliant and insightful woman, Judge Judith Sheindlin, "If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true."

The desire to hit people is 'natural'. It's a matter of when, where, and with whom, that determines the morality. If I step into an MMA match and punch my opponent it's very different from some random stranger in the street. For that matter, it would also be different if it were with another MMA fighter in the middle of someone else's wedding.

Likewise, there are 'whens, whos, and wheres' about sex as well. It's also important to think about why it is 'natural'. It's a natural desire so that we transmit life, rather than STDs. The power to create life is a great power. And we know what Uncle Ben said about power and responsibility

 

[Larry Mondello]

I simply cannot fathom that a god, creator of the entire universe and all in it, would smite me and banish me to hell for all eternity for bending to a perfectly natural desire to have sex.

Don't want to get too into theology, but in response to your legitimate inquiry, it isn't the mere act of sex, or any other single act, that separates people from their Creator.

No one's punished simply for having sex. Or eating too much.
Or lying. Or many other things.

It's sin, disobedience or wrongdoing overall.

Sex is a beautiful thing. God, as I understand things, doesn't forbid people from having sex. At least not in marriage.
Unfortunately, many Christians hold false or repressive views on the topic.

This book, for those interested, provides a Christian perspective on the topic.
Hint: it's not written by some uptight minister who frowns on sexual fulfillment in marriage.
Read the reviews and see how the view of sex is quite liberating.

- Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage by Kevin Leman
http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Music-Uncovering-Intimacy-Marriage/dp/0842360247/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294890641&sr=1-1

 

[Jase]

Yeah, but will you be fabulous?

Of course, isn't that a given?

 

[Jase]

Well, this is open to all forums, but this place advertises itself as Christian Forums--so it can be a little misleading as one is apt to think that the question asked is for Christians, who shouldn't be mocking any virgin to begin with as that is something that Gods asks us to keep between a married man and woman--what the non-christian thinks isn't going to be remotely similar to what a chritian thinks and the 2 sides are never going to agree. Any christian who says having sex outside of marriage is ok doesn't know God nor what He says on the subject and probably could care less. He just wants to do whatever he wants and not feel guilty about it, so he, too, will ignore what God says. Free will. But there are consequences to all our actions, some we won't find out about till we're face to face with God, and then, well--it'll be a little late.

And yet we see for most of Christian history, marriage was looked down on. Even Paul didn't like marriage, he merely said it's a better alternative than burning with passion. Why do you think marriage is a secular institution in the United States? Because Martin Luther and the Protestants during the Reformation viewed it as a "worldly thing" and gave the power to the state. The Puritans brought common law marriage to the US so that religion had no required involvement.

It amazes me that God would actually encourage people that may not be sexually compatible to not find that out before they are locked into marriage for the rest of their life.

Spouses are supposed to provide for each other's sexual needs, but not all couples are sexually compatible. And if they get married before they find that out, they are not allowed to divorce according to scripture. So either way, they are sinning by being in marriage. It's a Catch 22.

And people wonder why the divorce and adultery rates are so high among Christians.

I'm by no means advocating promiscuity, but my goodness why does a silly little ceremony or government issued piece of paper suddenly make sex virtuous, whereas the day before that piece of paper was issued, having sex is a sin.


Is God so petty and worried about the tiny details that he's going to condemn 2 people because they happened to have sex a week before the government handed them a marriage license? That is such bad logic.

God embodies logic, so as Selfinflikted said, if it's not logical or doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.

Sounds FAR more likely to me that the Church invented the anti-sex doctrine that modern day Christians cling to, not God.

 

[Larry Mondello]

And people wonder why the divorce and adultery rates are so high among Christians.

There's a saying I once heard:
marriage is the biggest cause of divorce.

Sounds FAR more likely to me that the Church invented the anti-sex doctrine that modern day Christians cling to, not God.

Yes, men interpreted God's instructions.
Some of the theologians that came along later, like St. Augustine, had very negative views on sex, so influenced Medieval thinking on the manner.
Hence that particular brand of Christianity's negative view on marital sex.

Reading a marriage improvement book, read how church leaders during the Middle Ages told couples they couldn't have sex on one day because it was the day Jesus went to the cross, they couldn't have sex on the next day because that was another important day, nor Sunday for some other reason, Monday bec. of a saint's suffering, etc.
Soon, almost EVERY SINGLE DAY was off-limits for marital sexual expression.
So yes, it can get out of hand.

I'm by no means advocating promiscuity, but my goodness why does a silly little ceremony or government issued piece of paper suddenly make sex virtuous, whereas the day before that piece of paper was issued, having sex is a sin.

A marriage is much more than a piece of paper.
Or the wedding invitations or the rings the couple wears.

It's not the piece of paper, the ceremony or anything else. It's the commitment the two express to each other.

 

[Jro]

The desire to hit people is 'natural'. It's a matter of when, where, and with whom, that determines the morality. If I step into an MMA match and punch my opponent it's very different from some random stranger in the street. For that matter, it would also be different if it were with another MMA fighter in the middle of someone else's wedding.

Isn't the determining factor there consent and the ability to practice it safely, not necessarily a legal contract of any sort?

 

[mmksparbud]

All I can say is what God has written. That is our guidence. We may not like what He says, but sex was given as a blessing, as a way to have children--face it, God did not have to make it pleasureable, He could have arranged things so that it would not have been fun, just a method of procreation--no special sensation. But He wanted us to enjoy it, but within His restrictions. And Anytime He forbids something, it's not to deprive us of something good, but to keep us from harming ourselves and others. It would us from STD's, illigetimate children, uncared for children, emotional pain, it would have kept women from being prostitutes and demeaning themselves. No adultry kept the family intact, the children knowing both parents, and from the pain of betrayal, from jealousy. From pimps and others who wish to exploit women and children. It was for our sense of security, for creating a closeness between wife and husband. It is up to us to choose what we will do with our minds, bodyies, finances and talents. We are to use all to the will of God. We all have our pitfalls. Some people it's gambling, drinking, food,other addictions--we are the living temple of God and are to treat our bodies as such. He never said it would be easy. But the choice is God and His will so we can prepare our characters to spend eternity with Him--or do our will and not be with Him. Abstaining from sex, for 60-100 years sounds harsh--but the price is cheap if you consider that you gain eternity, millions on millions of years living in a city paved with gold, having perfect intellect, no pain, no tears, no death, no illness, always have your friends and loved ones around you and nature more beatufull than we can imagine and most of all, being with God, walking with Jesus and finally understanding the whole thing with the Holy Ghost and them.--giving up anything that stands between us and God is a miniscule price to pay. It's easy to give in to what we want, to battle ourselves takes guts, strength, love, faith--all those God can give us. Free will--personally, I don't much care for it--If there was a button I could press where never again would I think or do anything wrong again, I'd push it. The consequences of sin far outweigh the pleasures of it.

 

[AtheistVet]

That's kind of disturbing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Free will--personally, I don't much care for it--If there was a button I could press where never again would I think or do anything wrong again, I'd push it. The consequences of sin far outweigh the pleasures of it.

You are perfect. You are machinelike. The road to one hundred percent happiness is free. Hurry, then, everyone – old and young – hurry to submit to the Great Operation.
-- Eugene Zamyatin, We


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Larry Mondello]

Free will--personally, I don't much care for it--If there was a button I could press where never again would I think or do anything wrong again, I'd push it. The consequences of sin far outweigh the pleasures of it.

That would make things easier.
But then again, God didn't create people as robots.

I didn't want to date and marry someone who didn't voluntarily of her own free will desire to enter a relationship with me.
Doubt God requires or forces people to enter relationships with Him.

I sin or do wrong every day. So we're all in the same boat and while most sins have degrees of wrong and consequences on earth, with few exceptions, in heaven, there isn't much difference between a prostitute and someone who cheated on his/her taxes.
That is, Groups Postings isn't going to be singled-out for the wrong he did vs. a common thief, much as I'd prefer some special forms of punishment for those that commit heinous crimes.


DISCLAIMER:
Those who know me know I don't "push" my views on others, and am not doing it here. Merely expressing my thoughts.
I am perfectly capable of explaining my views and not intimidated in doing so, like I once may have been.
This is ChristianForums.com after all.

 

[selfinflikted]

The desire to hit people is 'natural'. It's a matter of when, where, and with whom, that determines the morality. If I step into an MMA match and punch my opponent it's very different from some random stranger in the street. For that matter, it would also be different if it were with another MMA fighter in the middle of someone else's wedding.

Likewise, there are 'whens, whos, and wheres' about sex as well. It's also important to think about why it is 'natural'. It's a natural desire so that we transmit life, rather than STDs. The power to create life is a great power. And we know what Uncle Ben said about power and responsibility

Don't want to get too into theology, but in response to your legitimate inquiry, it isn't the mere act of sex, or any other single act, that separates people from their Creator.

No one's punished simply for having sex. Or eating too much.
Or lying. Or many other things.

It's sin, disobedience or wrongdoing overall.

Sex is a beautiful thing. God, as I understand things, doesn't forbid people from having sex. At least not in marriage.
Unfortunately, many Christians hold false or repressive views on the topic.

This book, for those interested, provides a Christian perspective on the topic.
Hint: it's not written by some uptight minister who frowns on sexual fulfillment in marriage.
Read the reviews and see how the view of sex is quite liberating.

- Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage by Kevin Leman
[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Music-Uncovering-Intimacy-Marriage/dp/0842360247/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294890641&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Music-Uncovering-Intimacy-Marriage/dp/0842360247/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294890641&sr=1-1[/URL]

I just have trouble, assuming that the biblegod is real, believing that such a powerful being would concern himself with such mundane minutiae. That's all I was saying.

All I can say is what God has written. That is our guidence. We may not like what He says, but sex was given as a blessing, as a way to have children--face it, God did not have to make it pleasureable, He could have arranged things so that it would not have been fun, just a method of procreation--no special sensation. But He wanted us to enjoy it, but within His restrictions. And Anytime He forbids something, it's not to deprive us of something good, but to keep us from harming ourselves and others. It would us from STD's, illigetimate children, uncared for children, emotional pain, it would have kept women from being prostitutes and demeaning themselves. No adultry kept the family intact, the children knowing both parents, and from the pain of betrayal, from jealousy. From pimps and others who wish to exploit women and children. It was for our sense of security, for creating a closeness between wife and husband. It is up to us to choose what we will do with our minds, bodyies, finances and talents. We are to use all to the will of God. We all have our pitfalls. Some people it's gambling, drinking, food,other addictions--we are the living temple of God and are to treat our bodies as such. He never said it would be easy. But the choice is God and His will so we can prepare our characters to spend eternity with Him--or do our will and not be with Him. Abstaining from sex, for 60-100 years sounds harsh--but the price is cheap if you consider that you gain eternity, millions on millions of years living in a city paved with gold, having perfect intellect, no pain, no tears, no death, no illness, always have your friends and loved ones around you and nature more beatufull than we can imagine and most of all, being with God, walking with Jesus and finally understanding the whole thing with the Holy Ghost and them.--giving up anything that stands between us and God is a miniscule price to pay. It's easy to give in to what we want, to battle ourselves takes guts, strength, love, faith--all those God can give us. Free will--personally, I don't much care for it--If there was a button I could press where never again would I think or do anything wrong again, I'd push it. The consequences of sin far outweigh the pleasures of it.

Uh huh. Well, for those of us living on this side of reality, sex feels good so we will want to do it. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes perfect sense. It would be kinda hard to pass on your genes if sex were a chore. Thankfully, it's quite enjoyable!

 

[Larry Mondello]

And what if your future spouse and you are not sexually compatible and you don't find out until after you're married.

That puts you in a Biblical Catch 22.

That's really not all that big of an issue as you make it out to be.

The first time I had sex with someone, wasn't that big of a deal and seemed fairly intuitive. We both were virgins.

Couples can buy books, like Sheet Music, to learn more about LM.
Couples, esp. virgins or those with little experience, should also discuss that issue before marriage and learn what the other's expectations are regarding sex.

 

[AtheistVet]

That's really not all that big of an issue as you make it out to be.

The first time I had sex with someone, wasn't that big of a deal and seemed fairly intuitive. We both were virgins.

Couples can buy books, like Sheet Music, to learn more about LM.
Couples, esp. virgins or those with little experience, should also discuss that issue before marriage and learn what the other's expectations are regarding sex.

But if you're both virgins, how do you even know what those expectations are yet?

 

[Mling]

That's really not all that big of an issue as you make it out to be.

The first time I had sex with someone, wasn't that big of a deal and seemed fairly intuitive. We both were virgins.

Couples can buy books, like Sheet Music, to learn more about LM.
Couples, esp. virgins or those with little experience, should also discuss that issue before marriage and learn what the other's expectations are regarding sex.

You're lucky. Some people have complicated needs or desires. And I'm not just talking about paraphillias, but that factors in, too.

Like--sex between somebody who is unable to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (or unable to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] from somebody else's efforts) who is with somebody who has an insatiable sex drive and limitless ability for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Would that be intuitive?

Actually...I'm not so sure you're lucky. Having things come easily can prevent them from getting really awesome. The talk that's necessary to figure out counter-intuitive sex can lead to much better sex.

edit: also this . A person who's been subtly taught all their life that it's wrong to feel desire may not be able to have that conversation about their expectations of sex. And anybody who's never had sex will likely have misconceptions about what sex will be like. example: I didn't have trouble imagining what I wanted (though I needed to figure out what could be done in real life vs. what needed to be role played, or just imagined), and I had the language to communicate what I wanted too. But it came as a serious surprise to me that I wasn't able to handle having sex as often as I masturbated. I assumed, pre-sex, that if I touch once a day, I'd like sex once a day. Turns out that sex is more intense, and requires much more expenditure of energy, than masturbation, and I couldn't handle sex more than a few times a week. That's something that even the most self-aware person wouldn't be able to figure out without real, physical experience.

 

[Mling]

At this point, I've edited the above post so much, it may fall apart if I cut into it again, so I'll add this anew:

the idea of basing your sexual compatibility on pre-sex conversations regarding expectations completely negates the fact that people grow. And sometimes they grow in surprising ways.

For example, a lot of people have a fairly basic (meaning--low level, unconscious, unchosen) sexual mechanism going on in their brain, that things they deeply fear (or feel guilty about) become fetishized. Sometimes the fear can overwhelm the fetish for a while, but as the fear fades, new and exciting things may pop out!

You may have a conversation with your betrothed about your ability to be kind and gentle--as they're a trauma survivor and certain aspects of sex are frightening to them-- and a few years later be asked if you can grab their throat and call them a dirty "tramp." If you've based your sex life, up until then, on being kind and gentle and understanding--can you do that?

What if they need you to?

Could you snarl German expletives to the child of Holocaust survivors, if you didn't know they'd want that when you got married?

 

[selfinflikted]

^ This post turned me on. Brb.

 

[Mling]

^ This post turned me on. Brb.

I'll tell my girlfriend-- who I was describing.

 

[Larry Mondello]

You're lucky. Some people have complicated needs or desires. And I'm not just talking about paraphillias, but that factors in, too.

Sex seemed to come easy @17 in HS, all too easy, unfortunately.
My first GF and a big mistake/regret getting sexually involved.

Wasn't focused on or really interested in sex.
Not that I was some great guy, but was content with hugging and kissing until she one night told me I
"never tried anything...." which led to a lot "exploring" and.... had a car and got "ideas...."

Like--sex between somebody who is unable to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (or unable to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] from somebody else's efforts) who is with somebody who has an insatiable sex drive and limitless ability for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Would that be intuitive?

You don't really know me or my marriage that well, so no offense here, but am very aware of that problem. I'm very high drive.

Actually...I'm not so sure you're lucky. Having things come easily can prevent them from getting really awesome. The talk that's necessary to figure out counter-intuitive sex can lead to much better sex.

You're right. Am not "lucky" at all.

While I had little sex until my 30s, as I posted, was very naive about sex and pleasing a woman until the last couple of years, in my late 40s after I read some books and visited some Christian marital sex improvement websites such as http://www.boards.themarriagebed.com/index.php?sid=27758b2b07aebd9306904b7375218159