Why is this wrong?

[Helo]

This question has a little story attached to it so be forewarned.

I had a couple of friends come over tonight. I wanted some company and they wanted an exscuse to be together. I should point out something, my two friends are female, lesbians, and in love. Rosie is 14 and Angel is 16, I met both of them in high school when they started dating and we've kept in touch. They curled up on my bed together and I sat on the end of the bed with my back against the wall.

We holed up in my room and talked for a while, various things, life in general. After a bit we got hungry so I went into the kitchen and fried up a couple of my world famous pizzas (hey, in MY world, theyre famous, who else puts habenero in thier sauce?).

I got back in and I found both of them curled up together asleep. Both of them just curled up together in thier own little world.

Now I just have one small, nagging question. Why is that wrong? Why is it wrong for two women or two men to love eachother?

 

[The Midge]

There is nothing wrong with love. Sex and love are not the same thinigs. One can exist without the other.

 

[Helo]

There is nothing wrong with love. Sex and love are not the same thinigs. One can exist without the other.

This is very true, but why cant sex be an expression of love?

 

[Wicked Willow]

Heh...
I'm the last person to give you an answer to that one, except for: "Homosexuality isn't wrong."

But if you want to know why many people out there REGARD homosexuality as immoral/unnatural/sinful/abominable and what-have-you, well, I could offer a few hypotheses:

1. It's part of their cultural conditioning, of their very indentity. Like African tribes who mutilate the female genitalia because tradition demands it, or fundamentalist muslims who freak out when they see an uncovered female FACE.
And it's not just religious. Conservatives more often than not think in Victorian categories, with the monogamous, heterosexual couple and the patriarchal family at its very center.

2. The book says so, and the book is always right because it says that it's always right.
Authoritarianism explains an awful lot about the way people feel, think and act. Rather than trusting their own judgement, they rely upon someone or something to tell them what's what.

Of course, neither of these explains the ORIGINS of this intolerance. I've got a few theories of my own with regards to these. But I'll get back to that later...

 

[Eudaimonist]

Does it say in the Bible that a woman shall not have sex with another woman? The only quotes I'm familiar with refer to the male sex.

 

[dr.p]

Does it say in the Bible that a woman shall not have sex with another woman? The only quotes I'm familiar with refer to the male sex.

Yes, Romans 1:26.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It just HAD to be Paul!
And indeed it was.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Hm, yes, so it does. Thanks.

But why was God so late with the news? You'd think it would have been mentioned in the Old Testament.

 

[Annoula]

what i don't understand is why we are overwhelmed by homosexouality...

why everything promotes homosexouality...so many movies on gays, lesbians (i think there are more on gays though).

sometimes i feel pressured to accept something that it seems strange to me. i don't understand why my children would need to be raised in a society that accepts homosexouality 100%.

i don't condemn homosexouals, when they try to be decent social members as all of us should be.
i try to accept the person not the "habit", or the "taste". like... i like my friend, but i dislike her taste in clothing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

why everything promotes homosexouality...so many movies on gays, lesbians (i think there are more on gays though).

It's because there's been so much stigmatizing of homosexuals. This causes a backlash from idealistic people who'd like to challenge what they believe to be unjust attacks on homosexuals.

sometimes i feel pressured to accept something that it seems strange to me.

That works both ways, of course. In America, I have encountered social "pressure" to regard homosexuals as bad or dangerous people.

 

[dr.p]

First, The Midge, great answer. And I apologize if I step on your toes with this post

This is very true, but why cant sex be an expression of love?

It can be, in certain circumstances. To keep things simple, let's divide personal perspectives on sex into two categories: Biblical, and Non-Biblical.

In the Biblical view, God created sex so that mankind would perpetuate itself. What many people never mention, when arguing over sex, is that the major (and most difficult) part of perpetuation is child-rearing. Because of our complex nature, a complex solution is required to ensure success in that area. Therefore a bond is formed between a man and a woman because of sex, and this aids in keeping the family united. The man and woman assess threats to their property more acutely. This is where ownership comes into play. And it was never meant to be a slave-master relationship, where either the wife or husband revokes the person-hood and free will of their spouse. Nor where the parents revoke the person-hood of the children. Rather, it is supposed to be a "do what's best out of love" type relationship, to build those you love up in the truth, that they may have peace and joy.

The Non-Biblical view, as best I can surmise, revolves around desire. Whether it be you or I desiring the body of a woman, or a woman who desires to physically "pleasure" another woman because of her desire for affection, it boils down to personal desire. This is self-seeking. Love is not self-seeking, but self-sacrificing.

Because of such self-seeking, we end up with the current state of the world. Children lost because they've had no guidance from parents who are clear on who they are as individuals, and how to live life fully, that all around you may benefit, instead of seeking your own gain. Such a problem perpetuates itself and grows exponentially, because that is the nature of life. Irresponsibility breeds irresponsibility. Clarity and uprightness can be chosen at any point, but will have to be fought for all the more the further down the line we go. But that's straying from the topic.

I am not, by any means, saying that this is exactly what your two friends' relationship is driven by. But if you truly want to understand why they are seeking the relationship with eachother, then ask them questions about it until you see the truth in it. To do this successfully, lay aside your assumption that what they are doing is right. Do not take up any assumption, that it is right or wrong, but judge it based on the truth. God willing you will see the truth of it for whatever it may be.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

A few years ago, German Conservatives stated that immigrants should be bound to relinquish their respective cultural identity in favour of the German "Leitkultur" (dominant culture). They basically voiced what was going on in the heads of many inherently xenophobic country dwellers.
As a reaction to that, immigrants feel that they need to protect their cultural identity by emphasizing their cultural differences, and as a consequence to this, German Turks tend to be "more Turkish than the Turks".

It's the same here: intolerance results in defensive reactions, in this case, attempts at showing people that being gay is NOT vile and abominable.

I'm not particularly fond of the homosexual subculture, because I think that my sexual orientation isn't THAT important with regards to who I am. I loathe labels and those who feel that they need to adapt to some standard, either subversive or conformist. All that "butch vs. femme"-nonsense is just horribly pathetic.

 

[dr.p]

 

[Dragons87]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with two members of the same sex to be in love with each. You can most certainly have a very pure and healthy brotherly and sisterly love. But why must people express this kind of love with sex? Different kinds of love require different kinds of expression. Sex just happens to be not the way to express love to another member of the same sex.

 

[benjdm]

Now I just have one small, nagging question. Why is that wrong? Why is it wrong for two women or two men to love eachother?

In order for it to be wrong someone would have to be harmed by it. It isn't wrong. Quite the opposite: It would be wrong to insist that the two of them could not love each other.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It can be, in certain circumstances. To keep things simple, let's divide personal perspectives on sex into two categories: Biblical, and Non-Biblical.

Since I don't regard the Bible as anything other than the testimony of an ancient people trying to understand the world and their place within it, I'll skip the Biblical part.

The Non-Biblical view, as best I can surmise, revolves around desire. Whether it be you or I desiring the body of a woman, or a woman who desires to physically "pleasure" another woman because of her desire for affection, it boils down to personal desire. This is self-seeking. Love is not self-seeking, but self-sacrificing.

While I think that your statement is a wee bit too generalizing, there is some truth to be found in there - but something that is completely unrelated to the sexual orientation of a person:
Western culture almost WORSHIPS individuality, and puts much emphasis on a person's right to be in charge of their own life. This generates certain problems with regards to interpersonal relationships, of course: people tend to perceive themselves as autonomous rather than parts of a delicate social network, and act accordingly. For example, my girlfriend's father left his family (including five children) to pursue his "self-realization".
(Of course, other models aren't necessarily better: a society that puts too much emphasis on the individual's role within the family may end up forcing its daughters into arranged marriages, for example. Their individual wishes are suppressed in favour of the family's.)

But mature relationships are not based on desire, whether they are Biblical or Non-Biblical.
I grant you that there are lots of people out there who can't tell the difference between a crush and love, and will break up with their "loved" ones as soon as the first rush of hormones is over. For me, however, it's never been like that. Or, well, not since I was sixteen years old. It's not about what the other person can give me, or about pleasure, or sensual gratification. It's about so much more than that. Sharing our lives, sharing our future, supporting each other in times of trouble, and marveling at the boundless wonder of finding profound happiness in each other's smile.

Because of such self-seeking, we end up with the current state of the world. Children lost because they've had no guidance from parents who are clear on who they are as individuals, and how to live life fully, that all around you may benefit, instead of seeking your own gain. Such a problem perpetuates itself and grows exponentially, because that is the nature of life. Irresponsibility breeds irresponsibility. Clarity and uprightness can be chosen at any point, but will have to be fought for all the more the further down the line we go. But that's straying from the topic.

Our society experiences certain conflicts because certain traditional structures are crumbling, and have not been replaced with new ones, yet. But that's got more to do with the sexual revolution and women rising above their designated subservient roles rather than with homosexuality.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with two members of the same sex to be in love with each. You can most certainly have a very pure and healthy brotherly and sisterly love. But why must people express this kind of love with sex? Different kinds of love require different kinds of expression. Sex just happens to be not the way to express love to another member of the same sex.

Why are so many people so obsessed with the notion of homosexual sex? Are your heterosexual relationships all about getting laid? I sure hope that they aren't.

Dragons87, you may not understand this, but just like YOU are attracted to members of the opposite sex, there are people out there who feel that way about their own sex. You cannot force them to feel differently, and THEY cannot force themselves either. They don't wake up one morning and decide that it might be a brilliant idea to fall in love with another man/woman. It's not a choice.

 

[Mythunderstood]

what i don't understand is why we are overwhelmed by homosexouality...

why everything promotes homosexouality...so many movies on gays, lesbians (i think there are more on gays though).

sometimes i feel pressured to accept something that it seems strange to me. i don't understand why my children would need to be raised in a society that accepts homosexouality 100%.

i don't condemn homosexouals, when they try to be decent social members as all of us should be.
i try to accept the person not the "habit", or the "taste". like... i like my friend, but i dislike her taste in clothing.

What do you say to your kids about living in a country, that heaven forbid, allows people to remarry (i.e.,adultery)? Everywhere you turn, you encounter people who are living contrary to god's word. Your minister, teachers, police officers, legislators, etc. may all have divorced/remarried. This is despicable in god's eyes and is a slap in the face to Him. He specifically commanded against this. Where is the outrage in having to live a life surrounded by people who walk around with their stepchildren and new spouses......just flaunting it in your face like that?
-----------------------
Exodus 20:14 - Thou shalt not commit adultery (the 7th Commandment).

Mark 10:11 - Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

1 Cor. 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, ...shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[graceabounding]

Dragons87, you may not understand this, but just like YOU are attracted to members of the opposite sex, there are people out there who feel that way about their own sex. You cannot force them to feel differently, and THEY cannot force themselves either. They don't wake up one morning and decide that it might be a brilliant idea to fall in love with another man/woman. It's not a choice.

I have struggled with my sexuality for several years now, and I do know how it feels to be attracted to members of the same sex. Even though the desires are there, I can choose to not act on them. God has established clear boundaries, and He has promised to withhold no good thing from us. I can't change these feelings, but I am trusting that He will. Until then, I am relying on the grace He has so richly provided. It isn't easy, but only He ultimately can meet our needs.

 

[dr.p]

Jane_The_Bane / Regarding the question of homosexual relatioships.

I agree completely that sexual orientation is not the focus. And it was not the focus of my post. I don't see where we disagree, aside from whether or not God exists, and what the purpose of sex is. Pretty much everything else you said, I agree with.

I did not mean to call desire an evil thing, if that's what you thought. Unchecked desire, yes. I cannot, and will not, call anyone's heartfelt desire for another person's good and happiness, evil. But heartfelt desire is distinct from physical desire, as others have already said.

That's one point. The other is: either you believe that sex was meant for what the Bible says, OR you don't.

I am no man's judge. Which is why I cannot condemn homosexual relationships if those involved do not believe in the God of Israel. And I can not justify them, because I know they are wrong according the law of my God. Jesus said that unbelievers have those things which they are judged by: the law of their hearts. All I can do is say that Jesus is right, all the time.

And do you think that I am not condemned by the very same law?

Back to the question I was answering: "why cant sex be an expression of love?"

Jane, you actually made me a lot clearer on this with your response. If sex is not at all an expression of love, it is simply a physical act. If sex is entirely considered an expression of love, an undue amount of importance has been placed on the act.

Back to the OP of Helo.

Helo, you are asking why Christians would condemn something you see as inncocent, right?

Simply put, we do not see ONLY innocence in it.

If you do not believe in the God of Israel, then you have what you believe in. So why try to get us to absolve this in our law? That's no better than us trying to condemn it in secular law.