Why is this ok when God does it but bad when we(humans) do this?

[Isaiah 2:22]

It sounds like you are wrestling with the problem of evil at the moment. This is something every Christian will struggle with at some point (or many points) in their journey.

Do you like to read or listen to audiobooks at all? If so, I would recommend you read/listen to Timothy Keller's book Walking with God Through Pain and Suffering. I found it enormously helpful to help me understand this issue better. Hopefully we are allowed to recommend books in this forum. If not, someone please let me know and I will edit my post.

 

[brinny]

God has made it clear that he is leaving us to our own devices for the time being to demonstrate to us that when we reject his way of life we crash and burn. He will save us in the end however. He is "not willing that any should perish..."

Isn't that why Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living died, as it is written in the book of John chapter 3, verse 16?

It is written that those who insist "on their own devices", will be given what they insist on, and left TO their own devices, just as Lucifer/Satan was.

In essence, God leaves them to their own self-imposed demise.

We need to be careful what we "wish for".

It is also written that God will not always strive with man. Just as in the days of Noah, the door of grace was open, but there came a day when God Himself closed that door. It is so now....the door of grace is open NOW. However, God will be closing that door of grace and there will be NO re-opening that door, for all of eternity.

 

[brinny]

The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment.

Where is that written in God's Word?

 

[hedrick]

Where is that written in God's Word?

Rom 6:20-23. In other passages Paul talks about destruction. 1 Cor 15 doesn't have room for eternal torment.

 

[Joyous Song]

Im talking about Romans 9:18 "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."


JS: This comes from Exodus.33:

19He said: "I will let all My goodness pass before you; I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you, and I will favor when I wish to favor, and I will have compassion when I wish to have compassion."

This is how the Rabbis see that passage (whole text Parshat Ki Tisa: The Closeness of God:

The more I study the Torah, the more conscious I become of the immense mystery of Exodus 33. This is the chapter set in the middle of the Golden Calf narrative, between chapter 32 describing the sin and its consequences, and chapter 34, God's revelation to Moses of the "Thirteen attributes of Mercy", the second set of tablets and the renewal of the covenant. It is, I believe, this mystery that frames the shape of Jewish spirituality.

He states clearly, that this confusing passage means:

To this (what Moses requested), God replied in a highly structured way. First, He said, you cannot understand My ways. "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy" (Ex. 33:19). There is an element of divine justice that must always elude human comprehension. We cannot fully enter into the mind of another human being, how much less so the mind of the Creator himself.

This leads to Something Ellen Bowers said though I'm paraphrasing because have the exact quote:

Manufactured mugs are perfect but besides holding liquid that not much else they can do. Handcrafted mugs are imperfect, but its these imperfections that make them treasures.

I too was born into an imperfect situation and imperfect body and with a learning disability that caused my dad to say I was "careless" or "lazy" or "stupid" when I was actually suffering from CAPD or Central Auditory Processing Disorder. Like you I struggled with this, but many, many years have taught me those weaknesses or crosses contain hidden blessings and I'm not sure people who get "everything" are not really the ones with the greater handicap.

This I believe is why the rabbi explains those words to mean not that G-d blesses some and curses others, but that why He does things is incomprehensible to us. Sometimes, as we me and my struggles, we may come to understand "why" but often many do not. Yet faith tells us there is a reason and that reason possesses a blessing. Perhaps when you one day see Him you can ask Him if you do not figure this out before then.

May His blessings be with you, and His shalom encompass you.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Where is that written in God's Word?

The second phrase is implicit to the first (I could have put it in parenthesis).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Isn't that why Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living died, as it is written in the book of John chapter 3, verse 16?

It is written that those who insist "on their own devices", will be given what they insist on, and left TO their own devices, just as Lucifer/Satan was.

In essence, God leaves them to their own self-imposed demise.

We need to be careful what we "wish for".

It is also written that God will not always strive with man. Just as in the days of Noah, the door of grace was open, but there came a day when God Himself closed that door. It is so now....the door of grace is open NOW. However, God will be closing that door of grace and there will be NO re-opening that door, for all of eternity.

Ezekiel 37 suggests that the door hasn't been closed, so 'today' isn't the only day of salvation, as some believe, but is a day of salvation.

 

[brinny]

The second phrase is implicit to the first (I could have put it in parenthesis).

Would you be so kind as to clarify what your response means, and how it ties in to my post that you responded to?

 

[brinny]

Ezekiel 37 suggests that the door hasn't been closed, so 'today' isn't the only day of salvation, as some believe, but is a day of salvation.

Indeed, the door of grace IS open, right now, as WE speak. However, there will come a day when that door of grace WILL close. PERMANENTLY.

Speaking of suffering eternal torment, it is written that those who reject God's grace (Jesus Christ) will be in eternal torment (never ending) where even the worms tormenting them do not die.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Would you be so kind as to clarify what your response means, and how it ties in to my post that you responded to?

"The wages of sin is death" is a common theme found throughout the bible. It follows that 'eternal life in torment' isn't possible if one is dead. Not just 'dead spiritually', but destroyed, body and soul, root and branch, even the memory of them, as if they had never existed.

 

[brinny]

"The wages of sin is death" is a common theme found throughout the bible. It follows that 'eternal life in torment' isn't possible if one is dead. Not just 'dead spiritually', but destroyed, body and soul, root and branch, even the memory of them, as if they had never existed.

How does that reconcile with eternal torment? The Word of God in its entirety ties those pieces together. Eternity is quite a study, amen?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How does that reconcile with eternal torment? The Word of God in its entirety ties those pieces together. Eternity is quite a study, amen?

Eternal torment is reserved for Satan and his demons.

 

[brinny]

Eternal torment is reserved for Satan and his demons.

Indeed. And it IS "eternal", is it not? Those who reject God's only. begotten Son will join Satan and his minions there for all of eternity, where even the worms that torment do not die. It is written .

 

[Olivet]

Because God is God and we are tiny insignificant ants compared to the all mighty power of the almighty God.

Its impossible for God to make a "wrong" decision. He is 100% Holy and always 100% right. But, its extremely likely that we will make a wrong decision within the next 15 seconds. That's the difference.

Although the underlined is true it makes God seem incredibly uncaring. Which is why I have a hard time trusting him. Despite my desires He'll do what he wants and wishes despite how I feel.
I feel the only way I can make this ok is to lie to myself and view God as a single parent doing his best but with limited resources.

 

[hedrick]

Indeed. And it IS "eternal", is it not? Those who reject God's only. begotten Son will join Satan and his minions there for all of eternity, where even the worms that torment do not die. It is written .

The worms in Isaiah (which seems to be the source of the NT language are eating the dead bodies, not tormenting anyone. 1 Cor 15 has evil destroyed, and I think the pit in the Rev, which is the second death, also passes away when all is made new.

 

[Olivet]

I agree. People who start asking questions like this typically end up as liberal Christians or atheists. You'll find discussions on related topics in Controversial Christian Theology.

Without moving to atheism, there are a couple of possible responses that I know of:

1) you need to think of this life as relatively brief preparation for eternal life. Development requires real challenges with real consequences.

2) various approaches that understand God's power more as persuasive than dictating everything that happens

I'm looking here just at the question you raised in the OP, which seemed like it was about the problem of evil and suffering. There's another moral question involving God, which is about the morality of him punishing people with eternal torment. To me the only acceptable answer is that he doesn't. But that's the most common topic for Controversial Christian Theology, so you should look at and maybe participate in discussions there.

If you haven't looked at the videos in post 35, you should, particularly the second one.

I'll never be an atheist because I'm fully convinced of God but because of what I stated in my OP I don't trust God at all. I really wish I didn't ask these questions and just trusted but I cant.

 

[brinny]

The worms in Isaiah (which seems to be the source of the NT language are eating the dead bodies, not tormenting anyone. 1 Cor 15 has evil destroyed, and I think the pit in the Rev, which is the second death, also passes away when all is made new.

Sooooooo, those worms you speak of are those spoken of by God in eternity?

 

[zoidar]

Because God is God and we are tiny insignificant ants compared to the all mighty power of the almighty God.

Its impossible for God to make a "wrong" decision. He is 100% Holy and always 100% right. But, its extremely likely that we will make a wrong decision within the next 15 seconds. That's the difference.

Insignificant enough for God sending His own Son to die for us.

 

[hedrick]

I'll never be an atheist because I'm fully convinced of God but because of what I stated in my OP I don't trust God at all. I really wish I didn't ask these questions and just trusted but I cant.

I think questions like those you asked can be useful in testing various Christian visions of the faith. In fact I have no idea why Christians ever accepted God as having a character that in a human we would consider immoral. All I can think is that at some times life was so brutal that people simply didn’t expect decency even out of parents. There’s some reason to think that ideas of how parents treat children (and husbands wives) have changed a lot over time. These changes were often resisted by conservative Christians.

But the issues are core to Christianity. For many Christians, Jesus goal was to save us from eternal torment. If we don’t think that’s an issue, then we have to consider the possibility that love of God and neighbor is important enough that Jesus would die to bring us to God, even without the threat of torture if we don’t respond.

 

[public hermit]

I'll never be an atheist because I'm fully convinced of God but because of what I stated in my OP I don't trust God at all. I really wish I didn't ask these questions and just trusted but I cant.

Don't be too hard on yourself for asking these questions. They are there and many Christians struggle with them. Despite the fact I have no knock down answers, I came to faith already asking these question, have struggled with them honestly, and my faith is more robust on account of doing so. I am certain God knows these questions occur, and I know from experience that God has guided me in facing them with faith intact.