LDS why is the BOM in King James English

[Tra Phull]

If this thread is diverted to Ellen White, I will as OP request that it be closed and deleted.

 

[He is the way]

If this thread is diverted to Ellen White, I will as OP request that it be closed and deleted.

That is fine I have already answered the topic of this discussion anyway so there is no need to keep it open any longer.

 

[BigDaddy4]

There will always people who hate God's prophets. I just consider the source. Naysayers vs those who knew him. Consider why people hate God's true prophets.

What about those who knew him who became "naysayers"? Those who left the church because they understood the truth about JS?

And of course you would only consider the source. Anything outside of your mormon insulated bubble that disagrees with your [false] profit is labeled "anti-mormon", a "critic", etc. Science, real science, practiced by real scientists who have been trained outside of religious influence, is not your friend.

 

[He is the way]

What about those who knew him who became "naysayers"? Those who left the church because they understood the truth about JS?

And of course you would only consider the source. Anything outside of your mormon insulated bubble that disagrees with your [false] profit is labeled "anti-mormon", a "critic", etc. Science, real science, practiced by real scientists who have been trained outside of religious influence, is not your friend.

You said: "What about those who knew him who became "naysayers"?"
How many people who knew Jesus voted for Barabbas? Why did Judas betray Jesus? Some people did fall away for various reasons, none of which were because Joseph was evil but they were excommunicated for various reasons and turned against the prophet much like people did to the prophets of old. Joseph Smith got his knowledge of science from God and told of things that were unknown at the time. Those truths are part of what we know from modern science today.

 

[Dances_With_Gnostics]

I was Tra Phull - I am now Dances_With_Gnostics

So I guess I am no longer OP, and everyone can do what they want.

I got a new laptop - everything changed...

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "What about those who knew him who became "naysayers"?"
How many people who knew Jesus voted for Barabbas? Why did Judas betray Jesus? Some people did fall away for various reasons, none of which were because Joseph was evil but they were excommunicated for various reasons and turned against the prophet much like people did to the prophets of old. Joseph Smith got his knowledge of science from God and told of things that were unknown at the time. Those truths are part of what we know from modern science today.

What you fail to see is that Satan has a brilliant mind and knows just how to manipulate the emotions of people, the knowledge of science. He knows more about science than any scientist. And always uses his knowledge to lead people to think God is someone else than who He really is. He doesn't care about how he makes them change the character of God, just as long as he has them alter the prefect concept of who God is. In the end, his truths are lies. He always uses a little truth to cover up his lies. Did so from the very beginning.

 

[He is the way]

What you fail to see is that Satan has a brilliant mind and knows just how to manipulate the emotions of people, the knowledge of science. He knows more about science than any scientist. And always uses his knowledge to lead people to think God is someone else than who He really is. He doesn't care about how he makes them change the character of God, just as long as he has them alter the prefect concept of who God is. In the end, his truths are lies. He always uses a little truth to cover up his lies. Did so from the very beginning.

The first case of hate that I know of was when Joseph Smith had his first vision in 1820 when he was 14 years old. People turned against Joseph Smith for NO good reason. They would not believe in visions. Today many people have what are called near death experiences where people have seen many things. Paul also seen many things and knew of this:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 4)

1 IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

People who had these experiences were afraid to talk about them because they knew how people would react. They were right disbelief causes contention. That being said since George Ritchie,s book https://www.amazon.com/Return-Tomorrow-George-C-Ritchie/dp/080078412X many people have become more accepting of those experiences. Now there are many books, a few movies, and scientific research groups such as IANDS - the most reliable source of information on NDEs which are overcoming prejudices which is a good thing.

 

[mmksparbud]

The first case of hate that I know of was when Joseph Smith had his first vision in 1820 when he was 14 years old. People turned against Joseph Smith for NO good reason. They would not believe in visions. Today many people have what are called near death experiences where people have seen many things. Paul also seen many things and knew of this:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 4)

1 IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

People who had these experiences were afraid to talk about them because they knew how people would react. They were right disbelief causes contention. That being said since George Ritchie,s book https://www.amazon.com/Return-Tomorrow-George-C-Ritchie/dp/080078412X many people have become more accepting of those experiences. Now there are many books, a few movies, and scientific research groups such as IANDS - the most reliable source of information on NDEs which are overcoming prejudices which is a good thing.

I have had 2 NDE's, and posted them. They are caused by O2 deletion and pilots can have them if their O2's have gone down. JS, according to him, did not have an NDE, he says he had a vision from God. When you say it is a vision from God, you best be able to back it up and anyone can say that when it is just a dream. As has been pointed out time and again, when it's from God they have to meet certain requirements. They must be

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If they go against the bible, they are not of God. Right there JS fails the test for the first thing that his angel says is that the bible has been corrupted and only JS will have the truth. He listened to an apparition that was not sent by God. His word is intact and always has been.

 

[Peter1000]

You know only what you want to know, what you have been told for eons. What you believe. We know "the rest of the story."

Is that right? Do you think I have not studied JS to the unth degree? You are not the only person that knows all the anti JS stuff, all the tawdry reports (all the negative propaganda).

Only a few years after JS left New York, a Dr. Philastus Hurlbut went around Palmyra and got people to sign affidavits that were dispariging about JS.
If JS was a nothing, no good, snot nosed kid, why would a man go around seeking affidavits to try to destroy JS?

Here is why. The good Dr. became a member of the Church in 1832 and was ordained an Elder in 1833. Later in that year he was excommunitcated for immoral conducts with a woman. So I believ he made it his life long task to discredit JS in any way he could.

But here is the rest of the story of Dr. Philastus Hurlbut. He was excommunicated as a minster of the Methodist church for immoral actions with another woman.
In 1847 he joined the United Brethren church and was made an Elder, but was later excommunicated from that church also because of immoral actions with a woman.

It is interesting that Philastus picked on JS to go after, being excommunicated from 3 churches. I guess JS was far more effective in preaching the gospel and far more successful than the other ministers, so he went after him.

Here is the real interesting thing Dr. Hurlbut said about the Spaulding Manuscript. And this was after his excommunication from the Church of Jesus Christ. He said:
When Hurlbut read the Spalding manuscript, he said, "I obtained a manuscript... which was reported to be the foundation of the Book of Mormon... when upon examination I found it to contain nothing of the kind, but being a manuscript upon an entirely different subject."[7]

So one of the most outspoken critics of JS over the years says the Spaulding Manuscript was not the foundation of the BOM. Wow, for some reason I have never read that before.

This has been the result of much talk about JS. Nothing substantial. How many times do we have to go through the Spaulding manuscript was what JS used to write the BOM? He didn't, but the critics still insist, and keep bringing it up, knowing that it is not true.

So believe what you will, but don't believe what Dr. Phiastus Hurlbut said, because he was the bad guy, and much of the anti-JS stuff come from him and critics that parrot what Hurlbut said.

 

[Peter1000]

I have had 2 NDE's, and posted them. They are caused by O2 deletion and pilots can have them if their O2's have gone down. JS, according to him, did not have an NDE, he says he had a vision from God. When you say it is a vision from God, you best be able to back it up and anyone can say that when it is just a dream. As has been pointed out time and again, when it's from God they have to meet certain requirements. They must be

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If they go against the bible, they are not of God. Right there JS fails the test for the first thing that his angel says is that the bible has been corrupted and only JS will have the truth. He listened to an apparition that was not sent by God. His word is intact and always has been.

What angel told JS that the bible has been corrupted and only JS will have the truth?

Besides there are bibles that quote Isaiah as saying that a "young woman" would bear a child and would call his name Emanuel. It is corrupted for not saying "a virgin" would .......
This corruption has helped keep millions of people from even believing in Jesus Christ.

And besides Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and taught things that the law did not have in it. Does Jesus have no light in him? I think you take this scripture too far, you even destroy Jesus. In fact Jesus's new testimony (New Testament) was such a radical change from the law (Old Testimony) that the Jews lived, they crucified him, thinking that he had not light in him. So be careful how you quote scriptures.

 

[Peter1000]

You can give her all the publicity you want. I never mention her for this thread is not about her however hard you want to change the topic. I've seen those on the threads that are about her, which you never show up to those. You just want to bring her up on threads about JS. Doesn't bother me one bit. I've been on tons of anti-White threads and so what you have to say won't bother me in the least. I however, have read your prophets' stuff, you have never read a single one of her books so I know you are speaking from total ignorance without any actual knowledge of her writings. But feel free to keep trying to divert the thread all you want---the OP may have something to say about it---and the mods. But maybe that is what you want---to shut down the thread---too ,any difficult questions.

Difficult questions? Why JS wrote the BOM in a Kings James English style. That is a creampuff question, and for it to keep on for 14 pages is ridiculous

 

[Peter1000]

What about those who knew him who became "naysayers"? Those who left the church because they understood the truth about JS?

And of course you would only consider the source. Anything outside of your mormon insulated bubble that disagrees with your [false] profit is labeled "anti-mormon", a "critic", etc. Science, real science, practiced by real scientists who have been trained outside of religious influence, is not your friend.

Sientists outside of religious influence have given us plenty of evidence that the BOM people lived. You just close your eyes to it or ask for more.

Naysayers are like the Corinthians complaint against Paul:
1 Corinthians 3:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

They would not move to the next level of Christianity, they were the naysayers of Pauls day, just like the naysayers of our day.

See the naysayers in this scripture:
Acts 20:28-30 King James Version (KJV)
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Paul was talking to the leadership of that day, and told them that even from among them would same become naysayers and would draw away disciples after them.

So naysayers are with us always, it is part of being the truth. Naysayers cannot handle the truth, and depart and stir up trouble. I am sure your church has suffered from naysayers too.

 

[Peter1000]

I was Tra Phull - I am now Dances_With_Gnostics

So I guess I am no longer OP, and everyone can do what they want.

I got a new laptop - everything changed...

If you dance with gnostics does that make you a gnostic?

 

[mmksparbud]

Is that right? Do you think I have not studied JS to the unth degree? You are not the only person that knows all the anti JS stuff, all the tawdry reports (all the negative propaganda).

Only a few years after JS left New York, a Dr. Philastus Hurlbut went around Palmyra and got people to sign affidavits that were dispariging about JS.
If JS was a nothing, no good, snot nosed kid, why would a man go around seeking affidavits to try to destroy JS?

Here is why. The good Dr. became a member of the Church in 1832 and was ordained an Elder in 1833. Later in that year he was excommunitcated for immoral conducts with a woman. So I believ he made it his life long task to discredit JS in any way he could.

But here is the rest of the story of Dr. Philastus Hurlbut. He was excommunicated as a minster of the Methodist church for immoral actions with another woman.
In 1847 he joined the United Brethren church and was made an Elder, but was later excommunicated from that church also because of immoral actions with a woman.

It is interesting that Philastus picked on JS to go after, being excommunicated from 3 churches. I guess JS was far more effective in preaching the gospel and far more successful than the other ministers, so he went after him.

Here is the real interesting thing Dr. Hurlbut said about the Spaulding Manuscript. And this was after his excommunication from the Church of Jesus Christ. He said:
When Hurlbut read the Spalding manuscript, he said, "I obtained a manuscript... which was reported to be the foundation of the Book of Mormon... when upon examination I found it to contain nothing of the kind, but being a manuscript upon an entirely different subject."[7]

So one of the most outspoken critics of JS over the years says the Spaulding Manuscript was not the foundation of the BOM. Wow, for some reason I have never read that before.

This has been the result of much talk about JS. Nothing substantial. How many times do we have to go through the Spaulding manuscript was what JS used to write the BOM? He didn't, but the critics still insist, and keep bringing it up, knowing that it is not true.

So believe what you will, but don't believe what Dr. Phiastus Hurlbut said, because he was the bad guy, and much of the anti-JS stuff come from him and critics that parrot what Hurlbut said.

That's just the problem, you think they are just anti-Mormon propaganda. I've never heard of Phiastus Hurlbut. Not a name I would forget! I'm just going by what JS wrote and what the bible says, and what the courts had to say. I did read about the Spaulding manuscript. The bible is intact and always has been. During the middle ages it was hidden, that's for sure,. but not corrupted. There were always a remnant that God kept safe and who always kept His word safe. As far as I'm concerned, It was not an angel from God.

 

[mmksparbud]

What angel told JS that the bible has been corrupted and only JS will have the truth?

Besides there are bibles that quote Isaiah as saying that a "young woman" would bear a child and would call his name Emanuel. It is corrupted for not saying "a virgin" would .......
This corruption has helped keep millions of people from even believing in Jesus Christ.

And besides Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and taught things that the law did not have in it. Does Jesus have no light in him? I think you take this scripture too far, you even destroy Jesus. In fact Jesus's new testimony (New Testament) was such a radical change from the law (Old Testimony) that the Jews lived, they crucified him, thinking that he had not light in him. So be careful how you quote scriptures.

There are many translations, I mostly read KJV, but I check all of them, much easier nowadays to do that. A young woman (back then) was considered a virgin---not like nowadays! Jesus did not teach against the bible, most of the NT are quotes from the OT, esp, when Jesus speaks. He expounded on the spiritual meanings, He certainly did not come up with anything even vaguely resembling that His Father had a Father, that there was a heavenly mother, that if it weren't for the fall Adam and Eve would have had no children. HIS TEACHINGS ARE NOT YOUR TEACHINGS.

 

[mmksparbud]

Difficult questions? Why JS wrote the BOM in a Kings James English style. That is a creampuff question, and for it to keep on for 14 pages is ridiculous

No, it is not. It is obvious that he copied from it. It is obvious he wanted his words to sound "Christian", biblical. And it is phony.

 

[He is the way]

I have had 2 NDE's, and posted them. They are caused by O2 deletion and pilots can have them if their O2's have gone down. JS, according to him, did not have an NDE, he says he had a vision from God. When you say it is a vision from God, you best be able to back it up and anyone can say that when it is just a dream. As has been pointed out time and again, when it's from God they have to meet certain requirements. They must be

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If they go against the bible, they are not of God. Right there JS fails the test for the first thing that his angel says is that the bible has been corrupted and only JS will have the truth. He listened to an apparition that was not sent by God. His word is intact and always has been.

Joseph was not against the Bible, but we all know there are problems with the Bible. It is NOT perfect, it even contradicts itself. God does NOT repent. Here are some facts about NDEs:

"WHAT CAUSES A NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE
In a scientific age, it is only natural that people want to understand the biological or psychological origins of experience, and a variety of neurological and chemical explanations have been proposed as the cause of NDEs: lack of oxygen, excess of carbon dioxide, seizure activity in the temporal lobe, the effect of drugs such as DMT or ketamine, hallucination, psychological avoidance of death, normal shutting down of brain activity, and a dozen or more other possibilities.

No scientific explanation so far has satisfactorily accounted for all aspects of NDEs or their effects. For example, numerous patients who were being clinically monitored and were known to be well oxygenated have later reported having an NDE during that time; drugs are not a factor in all NDEs; the characteristics of sleep disorders and NDEs are not identical. Hallucinations are highly individual and produce confusion and hazy memories, exactly the opposite characteristics of near-death experiences, which tend to share characteristics and be remembered vividly for decades as being "realer than real." For every medical cause that has been put forward, there are reasons the NDE researchers say, “Not quite right.”

Further, despite reports that scientists have been able to induce NDEs through the use of drugs or electrical stimulation to the brain, none of the reports has been altogether convincing. The reports have been based on a partial similarity to a limited aspect of NDE, or they have involved very few people—sometimes only a single individual—in an experiment that does not really replicate a full NDE, or the aftereffects do not coincide with those of a true NDE. After decades of investigation, researcher and psychiatrist Bruce Greyson, MD, has reported, “No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE.”*

Thousands of documented NDEs challenge mainstream Western thinking and belief systems. Expectations about an afterlife may be challenged, and some people abruptly develop radically new interests and abilities after an NDE. One subject of debate is whether consciousness (mind) resides exclusively in the physical brain. For example, many people who have had an NDE accurately report events that occurred around their bodies when they were unconscious or even clinically dead—in at least one case, when clinical monitoring clearly showed no brain activity. Some NDEs have revealed family secrets, such as the existence of a never-mentioned sibling. According to the prevailing belief system of industrialized societies, these things are scientifically impossible.

Although no relationship has been found between religious orientation and the likelihood of having an NDE, numerous studies have reported a significant correlation between the depth of an NDE and the importance a person subsequently places on religion or spiritual activity. For some, this is because they believe they have had a glimpse of Heaven and now believe absolutely in the existence of God and life after death. For others, it is because the NDE convinced them beyond question of the purpose of life as expressed in religious or spiritual teachings about love, service, and the reality of “something more” beyond physical existence."

From: What is an NDE?

 

[mmksparbud]

Joseph was not against the Bible, but we all know there are problems with the Bible. It is NOT perfect, it even contradicts itself. God does NOT repent. Here are some facts about NDEs:

"WHAT CAUSES A NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE
In a scientific age, it is only natural that people want to understand the biological or psychological origins of experience, and a variety of neurological and chemical explanations have been proposed as the cause of NDEs: lack of oxygen, excess of carbon dioxide, seizure activity in the temporal lobe, the effect of drugs such as DMT or ketamine, hallucination, psychological avoidance of death, normal shutting down of brain activity, and a dozen or more other possibilities.

No scientific explanation so far has satisfactorily accounted for all aspects of NDEs or their effects. For example, numerous patients who were being clinically monitored and were known to be well oxygenated have later reported having an NDE during that time; drugs are not a factor in all NDEs; the characteristics of sleep disorders and NDEs are not identical. Hallucinations are highly individual and produce confusion and hazy memories, exactly the opposite characteristics of near-death experiences, which tend to share characteristics and be remembered vividly for decades as being "realer than real." For every medical cause that has been put forward, there are reasons the NDE researchers say, “Not quite right.”

Further, despite reports that scientists have been able to induce NDEs through the use of drugs or electrical stimulation to the brain, none of the reports has been altogether convincing. The reports have been based on a partial similarity to a limited aspect of NDE, or they have involved very few people—sometimes only a single individual—in an experiment that does not really replicate a full NDE, or the aftereffects do not coincide with those of a true NDE. After decades of investigation, researcher and psychiatrist Bruce Greyson, MD, has reported, “No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE.”*

Thousands of documented NDEs challenge mainstream Western thinking and belief systems. Expectations about an afterlife may be challenged, and some people abruptly develop radically new interests and abilities after an NDE. One subject of debate is whether consciousness (mind) resides exclusively in the physical brain. For example, many people who have had an NDE accurately report events that occurred around their bodies when they were unconscious or even clinically dead—in at least one case, when clinical monitoring clearly showed no brain activity. Some NDEs have revealed family secrets, such as the existence of a never-mentioned sibling. According to the prevailing belief system of industrialized societies, these things are scientifically impossible.

Although no relationship has been found between religious orientation and the likelihood of having an NDE, numerous studies have reported a significant correlation between the depth of an NDE and the importance a person subsequently places on religion or spiritual activity. For some, this is because they believe they have had a glimpse of Heaven and now believe absolutely in the existence of God and life after death. For others, it is because the NDE convinced them beyond question of the purpose of life as expressed in religious or spiritual teachings about love, service, and the reality of “something more” beyond physical existence."

From: What is an NDE?

JS did not have an NDE---he claimed to have had a vision/visions. NDE---Near Death Experience. They are called that because people have them as they are supposedly dying. They are not called ADE--After Death Experience. No one who has been dead for several days, has come back. Those who have NDE have them according to their believes. A Hindu will have a different NDE than a Christian who believes in an everlasting burning hell. I do not believe that the dead go directly to heaven or hell. In both of my NDE's, I had a dream, then everything went black.

 

[He is the way]

No, it is not. It is obvious that he copied from it. It is obvious he wanted his words to sound "Christian", biblical. And it is phony.

Joseph Smith had NO written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon to his scribes.

 

[He is the way]

JS did not have an NDE---he claimed to have had a vision/visions. NDE---Near Death Experience. They are called that because people have them as they are supposedly dying. They are not called ADE--After Death Experience. No one who has been dead for several days, has come back. Those who have NDE have them according to their believes. A Hindu will have a different NDE than a Christian who believes in an everlasting burning hell. I do not believe that the dead go directly to heaven or hell. In both of my NDE's, I had a dream, then everything went black.

Then you did not have an NDE, you just blacked out. Why do you say it was a NDE. Some people were dead for days and came back:

"Some People Were Dead For Several Days

Reverend George Rodonaia (died 2004) underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to the study of spirituality, taking a second doctorate in the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. He served as a pastor at St. Paul United Methodist Church in Baytown, Texas. Reverend Rodonaia is one of the NDE experiencers profiled on this page who was dead for days during his NDE."

From: Some People Were Dead For Several Days

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.