• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why is the Bible ambiguous?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You are actually agreeing with me, that is (from your point of view), if believers would stop empty-headedly ignoring the 'objective evidence' of the 'reality' all around them they would be able to think more rationally.

You have it backwards. If someone has the capability of thinking more rationally, then they are much less likely to not accept a mountain of objective evidence that points a certain direction.

With some, deeply held beliefs, don't allow them to accept anything that may threaten their belief.
 
Upvote 0

Standing_Ultraviolet

Dunkleosteus
Jul 29, 2010
2,798
132
33
North Carolina
✟4,331.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
The answer is largely, "You know it when you know it," and I realize that is a completely unsatisfactory answer.

But it's the same situation when your friend sits down and asks, "How do I know he/she loves me?" How many songs have been written about that situation? It is what it is. But the uncertainty doesn't mean no one ever loves.

Likewise, the uncertainty doesn't negate the Bible.

Rather than focusing on the uncertainty, though, I think it's better to ask yourself, "How does God overcome that undertainty?"

I would agree with you to an extent, but at some point, I think that uncertainty does become a problem. People have different ways of being sure that they're being guided by the Holy Spirit, but a lot of those have real problems.

The idea that you can't be guided by the Spirit when you reach a wrong conclusion appears logically sound in itself, but only on the surface. If two people reach two different conclusions and both believe that they were guided by God, an outside opinion isn't going to break the stalemate. Personal emotion about a particular conclusion doesn't really help, either, just because emotion can come from many different sources. It wouldn't be hard to deceive yourself into thinking that your conclusion was correct because you were being divinely guided.

There's always the option of turning to an organization that claims to be divinely guided, but there are quite a few of those. The four that have the strongest claims (the Catholic Church, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East) still conflict with each other, and they hold some beliefs that would conflict with the common-sense interpretation of the Biblical text.

The conclusion that the only times when you can know that you're right about the Biblical text are times when it's clear in itself is kind of unsatisfying. There are quite a few times like that, but the parts of the Bible that are at the heart of controversies in Christianity (including some major ones like the doctrine of the Trinity) really don't fall into that category.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I would agree with you to an extent, but at some point, I think that uncertainty does become a problem. People have different ways of being sure that they're being guided by the Holy Spirit, but a lot of those have real problems.

Sure. Several things have been discussed in this thread, so I need to clarify a few of them. The certainty - the "you know it when you know it" - that I referred to was a certainty that spiritual beings exist and more specifically that God (the maximal spiritual being) exists.

It gives me certainity as an individual that those things exist. It doesn't somehow make me certain that all my opinions equate to truth. So that doesn't specifically address Biblical ambiguity, but it is an important first step, because I have an authority I can turn to through prayer.

... If two people reach two different conclusions and both believe that they were guided by God, an outside opinion isn't going to break the stalemate ...

There's always the option of turning to an organization that claims to be divinely guided, but there are quite a few of those.

Right, but this is the equivalent of the peer review process in the scientific world. So, just as the peer review process is held up as a good way to vet science, the church is a good way to vet religion. There isn't one unified science organization that vets all science and there isn't one church (little 'c') that vets all religion. There is, however, in Christianity the idea of the Church (big 'C'), the idea that there is one God and one Truth, and so there should be one Church. Jesus prays for this in John 17. It is something we don't expect to realize until the new earth (Rev 21), but that's no excuse to not try.

So, just as science tries to get better, the Christian denominations strive.

The conclusion that the only times when you can know that you're right about the Biblical text are times when it's clear in itself is kind of unsatisfying. There are quite a few times like that, but the parts of the Bible that are at the heart of controversies in Christianity (including some major ones like the doctrine of the Trinity) really don't fall into that category.

But again, God overcomes this. In my previous post I posed it as a question. I guess this time I'll make it more a statement - that we are imperfect doesn't matter. The reason Jesus came was to save us in spite of our imperfection, in spite of how nasty we are, not because we're really cool people to hang out with.

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.
John 16:33
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Sure. Several things have been discussed in this thread, so I need to clarify a few of them. The certainty - the "you know it when you know it" - that I referred to was a certainty that spiritual beings exist and more specifically that God (the maximal spiritual being) exists.

It gives me certainity as an individual that those things exist. It doesn't somehow make me certain that all my opinions equate to truth. So that doesn't specifically address Biblical ambiguity, but it is an important first step, because I have an authority I can turn to through prayer.



Right, but this is the equivalent of the peer review process in the scientific world. So, just as the peer review process is held up as a good way to vet science, the church is a good way to vet religion. There isn't one unified science organization that vets all science and there isn't one church (little 'c') that vets all religion. There is, however, in Christianity the idea of the Church (big 'C'), the idea that there is one God and one Truth, and so there should be one Church. Jesus prays for this in John 17. It is something we don't expect to realize until the new earth (Rev 21), but that's no excuse to not try.

So, just as science tries to get better, the Christian denominations strive.



But again, God overcomes this. In my previous post I posed it as a question. I guess this time I'll make it more a statement - that we are imperfect doesn't matter. The reason Jesus came was to save us in spite of our imperfection, in spite of how nasty we are, not because we're really cool people to hang out with.

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.
John 16:33

Do you really equate the church vetting religion, with peer review in science?

I would think, the church would not be as capable of being objective, as the peer review process, IMO. To me, that would be the equivalent of having tobacco company scientists, determine if smoking is bad for you.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,487
20,773
Orlando, Florida
✟1,515,928.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
The conclusion that the only times when you can know that you're right about the Biblical text are times when it's clear in itself is kind of unsatisfying. There are quite a few times like that, but the parts of the Bible that are at the heart of controversies in Christianity (including some major ones like the doctrine of the Trinity) really don't fall into that category.

I disagree. The Trinity is based on the Biblical text:

1) God is one. This belief comes to Christianity from Judaism in the only real creed of the early Jewish faith, the Shema ("Hear Oh Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One.)
2) Jesus talks about his relationship to God as one of "Father-Son", meaning there is a distinction of persons
3) Jesus has a divine nature, doing and saying things only God can do: http://www.wordonfire.org/Written-W...esus-is-God--A-Response-to-Bart-Ehrman.aspxnd

The Trinity logically follows from all that. Arius, the earliest unitarian, erred because he was basing his Christology on Greek Neo-Platonism. He basically believed Jesus was a demi-god created as an intermediary, but this destroys God's oneness and nullifies God's grace through Christ, since if human nature is not assumed by the divine, then it cannot be saved through God's grace (there is no other way for God's grace to be communicated to humanity except through God, not humanity, bridging that gap).
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Do you really equate the church vetting religion, with peer review in science?

It's an example. People seem more familiar with the scientific method than the offices of the Church, so I'm trying to relate it to something familiar. I'm not "equating" them.

But, yes, it is a vetting process (1 John 4:1).

I would think, the church would not be as capable of being objective, as the peer review process, IMO. To me, that would be the equivalent of having tobacco company scientists, determine if smoking is bad for you.

I understand your disdain for religion, but I don't see why scientists reviewing scientists is objective whereas a church holding it's congregation accountable (and vice-versa) is the kid guarding the cookie jar.

There are examples of peer review gone bad just as much as church governance problems. No human institution is perfect - not religions and not scientific associations.

The point is that in addition to Christianity recognizing the imperfection of humanity, it also recognizes that the opinion of one person is highly subjective and needs some grounding - despite the American love of individualism.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's an example. People seem more familiar with the scientific method than the offices of the Church, so I'm trying to relate it to something familiar. I'm not "equating" them.

But, yes, it is a vetting process (1 John 4:1).



I understand your disdain for religion, but I don't see why scientists reviewing scientists is objective whereas a church holding it's congregation accountable (and vice-versa) is the kid guarding the cookie jar.

There are examples of peer review gone bad just as much as church governance problems. No human institution is perfect - not religions and not scientific associations.

The point is that in addition to Christianity recognizing the imperfection of humanity, it also recognizes that the opinion of one person is highly subjective and needs some grounding - despite the American love of individualism.

I have no disdain for religion, I just don't buy the story any longer. Religion can be just what some people need.

Of course peer review is not perfect, nothing is (except the bible per your opinion), but the culture in science, just doesn't allow mumbo jumbo to have a long shelf life and the processes people must follow also is a great equalizer.

I went to church with a friend on Easter, first time I have been for a couple of years and since I have studied the NT from a historical and scholarly standpoint. The pastor made claims about the validity of scripture in his sermon, that many historians and scholars would refute and was on very shaky ground. I sat and wondered, how many people in here know the background of what this guy is preaching?
 
Upvote 0

Standing_Ultraviolet

Dunkleosteus
Jul 29, 2010
2,798
132
33
North Carolina
✟4,331.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Sure. Several things have been discussed in this thread, so I need to clarify a few of them. The certainty - the "you know it when you know it" - that I referred to was a certainty that spiritual beings exist and more specifically that God (the maximal spiritual being) exists.

It gives me certainity as an individual that those things exist. It doesn't somehow make me certain that all my opinions equate to truth. So that doesn't specifically address Biblical ambiguity, but it is an important first step, because I have an authority I can turn to through prayer.

I think that we may be talking about two different subjects, then. The "you know it when you know it" I was referring to was a knowledge that the Holy Spirit is guiding you in Biblical interpretation. I think that questions regarding the existence of spiritual problems could have similar issues (how do you know for certain that you're not just detecting agency where it isn't there?), but that's an entirely different issue.

Right, but this is the equivalent of the peer review process in the scientific world. So, just as the peer review process is held up as a good way to vet science, the church is a good way to vet religion. There isn't one unified science organization that vets all science and there isn't one church (little 'c') that vets all religion. There is, however, in Christianity the idea of the Church (big 'C'), the idea that there is one God and one Truth, and so there should be one Church. Jesus prays for this in John 17. It is something we don't expect to realize until the new earth (Rev 21), but that's no excuse to not try.
I know that it's just an analogy, but I don't think that the peer review process is really similar to what you're talking about. In peer review, scientists look at a paper. They determine whether its methodology is sound, and whether the conclusions reached can logically be drawn from the data using objective standards. Something passing peer review means that it's more likely to be correct than to not based on current understanding of the subject matter, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's right. Several papers that have passed peer review haven't survived replication attempts, and a conclusion drawn from a particular experiment may be proven wrong by the discovery of new information. Peer reviewed papers even conflict with each other sometimes. When that happens, a consensus usually emerges gradually over time.

The idea that the Church can vet ideas sounds good, until you consider that it still suffers from the same problems that I mentioned earlier. It's hard to determine who belongs to the Church if you're referring to the assembly of all individuals who have been forgiven for their sins and are in a relationship with God. It can be impossible to determine who falls into that category, and from certain parts of the New Testament that are fairly clear, it's apparent that the majority of people who proclaim membership in the Church are really outside of it. Because of that, the consensus opinion of Biblical researchers (even of a more conservative variety) wouldn't seem to be a very good guide.


But again, God overcomes this. In my previous post I posed it as a question. I guess this time I'll make it more a statement - that we are imperfect doesn't matter. The reason Jesus came was to save us in spite of our imperfection, in spite of how nasty we are, not because we're really cool people to hang out with.

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.
John 16:33
That's really the point that I'm discussing here. I understand that you believe that some (obviously not all) of your Biblical interpretations are guided by the Holy Spirit, but looking from the outside in, why would I choose your interpretation over that of John Calvin, John Wesley, or Soren Kierkegaard? Those individuals all believed themselves to have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, and would have believed that Spirit was guiding them to their religious conclusions.

In that sense, the problem is very much not overcome. For the individual, reading the Holy texts without any outside influence is likely to lead to confusion rather than clarity. Choosing what outside influences to allow in can be extremely confusing in itself, and ultimately I wasn't really able to find any who pieced the Biblical text together in away that was entirely coherent. I now suspect that's because the text itself has strong contradictions, but at the time, it made me feel a little hopeless and frightened.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I went to church with a friend on Easter, first time I have been for a couple of years and since I have studied the NT from a historical and scholarly standpoint.

I'm glad to hear that.

The pastor made claims about the validity of scripture in his sermon, that many historians and scholars would refute and was on very shaky ground. I sat and wondered, how many people in here know the background of what this guy is preaching?

How many people understand history? You keep making statements about religion as if it is somehow more beset by frailty than other human endeavors, and I just don't see it.

I don't know what the pastor said, so maybe he was wrong. Again, no one's perfect. But you also know I (and other historians) disagree with you (and the historians you cite).
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm glad to hear that.



How many people understand history? You keep making statements about religion as if it is somehow more beset by frailty than other human endeavors, and I just don't see it.

I don't know what the pastor said, so maybe he was wrong. Again, no one's perfect. But you also know I (and other historians) disagree with you (and the historians you cite).

That's kind of my point. A book that is held in high regard, is not well understood by many. The claims are taken as credible, with no search for where these claims came from, who wrote them, when they were written, have they been changed over the centuries and how do they stand up to the historical method and relate to the reality of the world we live in.

My point is this; the bible is such a highly regarded book and some people drive their entire life's faith around it, but they know very little about the background behind it. In a way, I understand, why explore opinions that would cause turmoil to beliefs that have been deeply invested in and this is why the belief requires faith and an internal rationalization of that faith.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I think that we may be talking about two different subjects, then. The "you know it when you know it" I was referring to was a knowledge that the Holy Spirit is guiding you in Biblical interpretation.

That's why I clarified. But again, knowing God exists is important to understanding the Bible. Lutheran theology claims it won't work the other way round - to study the "evidence" first and expect belief in God to follow.

I think that questions regarding the existence of spiritual problems could have similar issues (how do you know for certain that you're not just detecting agency where it isn't there?), but that's an entirely different issue.

And I'm saying that from the direction you're coming, I can't know that. In the end, I may just be the Expert Fool. I'm willing to take that chance because my experiences are strong enough to say otherwise - they are of a nature I've never experienced anywhere else.

I know that it's just an analogy, but I don't think that the peer review process is really similar to what you're talking about. In peer review, scientists look at a paper. They determine whether its methodology is sound, and whether the conclusions reached can logically be drawn from the data using objective standards. Something passing peer review means that it's more likely to be correct than to not based on current understanding of the subject matter, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's right. Several papers that have passed peer review haven't survived replication attempts, and a conclusion drawn from a particular experiment may be proven wrong by the discovery of new information. Peer reviewed papers even conflict with each other sometimes. When that happens, a consensus usually emerges gradually over time.

Of course there are differences. But there are also similarities - more than I think you realize.

The idea that the Church can vet ideas sounds good, until you consider that it still suffers from the same problems that I mentioned earlier. It's hard to determine who belongs to the Church ...

I purposely omitted the part where you started to define the Church. It's not the place of an unbeliever to do that just as someone outside a scientific organization can't declare who its members will be.

But the differences are not so large as you say. This idea that scientific organizations are formed "objectively" is nonsense. That might be the intent, but it is not the practice (I know both from studying the history of science and from personal experience). Similarly, churches have a noble intent that doesn't always come to pass.

And just as there are multiple scientific organizations with membership requirements and member roles that explictly define who can review a paper, there are multiple churches with membership requirements and member roles that explicitly define who can perform certain offices.

That's really the point that I'm discussing here. I understand that you believe that some (obviously not all) of your Biblical interpretations are guided by the Holy Spirit, but looking from the outside in, why would I choose your interpretation over that of John Calvin, John Wesley, or Soren Kierkegaard? Those individuals all believed themselves to have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, and would have believed that Spirit was guiding them to their religious conclusions.

I understand that seeing the Church's dirt laundry frightens some people, frustrates some, and disgusts others. But honestly, if there were a church claiming 100% agreement among all its members would you believe it? Would you take that as a sign it was the "true" church? I doubt it.

It's better to just get it out in the open and deal with it.

And I'll repeat my point. This is the most important point of the post: it doesn't matter. You must start and end with Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
That's kind of my point. A book that is held in high regard, is not well understood by many. The claims are taken as credible, with no search for where these claims came from, who wrote them, when they were written, have they been changed over the centuries and how do they stand up to the historical method and relate to the reality of the world we live in.

My point is this; the bible is such a highly regarded book and some people drive their entire life's faith around it, but they know very little about the background behind it. In a way, I understand, why explore opinions that would cause turmoil to beliefs that have been deeply invested in and this is why the belief requires faith and an internal rationalization of that faith.

You're still coming at it from the wrong direction.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,487
20,773
Orlando, Florida
✟1,515,928.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
That's kind of my point. A book that is held in high regard, is not well understood by many. The claims are taken as credible, with no search for where these claims came from, who wrote them, when they were written, have they been changed over the centuries and how do they stand up to the historical method and relate to the reality of the world we live in.

This claim of yours betrays ignorance of the subject matter: There are CENTURIES of biblical textual and historical criticism.
 
Upvote 0

Standing_Ultraviolet

Dunkleosteus
Jul 29, 2010
2,798
132
33
North Carolina
✟4,331.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
That's why I clarified. But again, knowing God exists is important to understanding the Bible. Lutheran theology claims it won't work the other way round - to study the "evidence" first and expect belief in God to follow.

I really don't believe that's a good way of coming to a conclusion about truth. If you believe first and then you're able to interpret the evidence, where did that belief come from in the first place? Short of a miraculous intervention, it had to come from an internal source. That would mean either a desire to believe that a particular faith is true, which is pretty unreliable because it's so focused on emotion, or a fear of Hell/hope for Heaven, in which case all of the problems with Pascal's Wager are invoked.

If it does come from a miraculous intervention, then you have the question of why it only comes to some people. Or, if it comes to everyone, why it's so relatively minor. It's easy to ignore a gentle pull toward belief in something when you have evidential reasons not to believe.

And I'm saying that from the direction you're coming, I can't know that. In the end, I may just be the Expert Fool. I'm willing to take that chance because my experiences are strong enough to say otherwise - they are of a nature I've never experienced anywhere else.

When I was more religious, I had experiences like that, too. I even had prayers answered. The problem with that is that, in some cases, those "answered prayers" were things that were really bad for me in the long run. I had a tendency to ask for signs about whether a particular fear was legitimate when I was a younger child, and sometimes, I would get those. I had an anxiety disorder, so you can imagine that wasn't a good thing.

Of course there are differences. But there are also similarities - more than I think you realize.

I think that a better analogy would be to the concept of scientific consensus instead of peer review. A point that's been tested and retested overtime, to the extent that it seems like the only possible explanation. Obviously there are still differences, but that's true with any analogy. Peer review, at least in political science (which is my field of study) is more of a methodological vetting process.

I purposely omitted the part where you started to define the Church. It's not the place of an unbeliever to do that just as someone outside a scientific organization can't declare who its members will be.

But the differences are not so large as you say. This idea that scientific organizations are formed "objectively" is nonsense. That might be the intent, but it is not the practice (I know both from studying the history of science and from personal experience). Similarly, churches have a noble intent that doesn't always come to pass.


And just as there are multiple scientific organizations with membership requirements and member roles that explictly define who can review a paper, there are multiple churches with membership requirements and member roles that explicitly define who can perform certain offices.

The definition of the Church that I used is a pretty commonly used one within Protestantism. Lutherans generally don't use the terminology of the visible and invisible church/Church (it's more common in Calvinist strands of Protestantism), but the underlying concept is still there. In that concept, members of the Church don't get to declare its membership. Only God can do that. The best that human beings can do is speculate.

Since we can't know who belongs to the true Church, then, it becomes impossible to differentiate between opinions that have been vetted by the Church and opinions just vetted by the church. If members of the Church constitute a minority of members of the church, then true opinions might slip through and be declared heresy, while false opinions rise to prominence. The response of the Catholic Church to the Protestant Reformation would be something that you would likely consider an example of this happening in actuality, so it's not simply theoretical.

I understand that seeing the Church's dirt laundry frightens some people, frustrates some, and disgusts others. But honestly, if there were a church claiming 100% agreement among all its members would you believe it? Would you take that as a sign it was the "true" church? I doubt it.

It's better to just get it out in the open and deal with it.

I would be pretty weirded out by a group that claimed 100% agreement. I'm not going to lie, I would think that it was a cult.

That said, it makes it impossible for someone to know which of their opinions are truly guided by the Holy Spirit if they don't have any solid source to appeal to. If I can't tell whether John Calvin, Martin Luther, or the leaders of the Anabaptists were divinely led, then I have no outside scale against which to measure my own interpretation. Therefore, I'm adrift. If you're confused about infant baptism, you have no way to know whether the appeals to scripture made by the Anabaptists are correct or whether the appeals made by John Calvin or Martin Luther are stronger. They both have good evidence, but ultimately if Biblical interpretation requires the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you're on your own in determining if your interpretation is guided.

And I'll repeat my point. This is the most important point of the post: it doesn't matter. You must start and end with Christ.

This goes back to my initial point. Belief preceding evidence is difficult to reach and impossible to validate. In grasping for belief, you're likely to default to whatever you grew up with, or to side with a particularly charismatic evangelist (or the religion of your spouse/significant other). Because of that, it doesn't seem like a very good way for God to reach out to humanity with the only means of salvation.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I went to church with a friend on Easter, first time I have been for a couple of years and since I have studied the NT from a historical and scholarly standpoint. The pastor made claims about the validity of scripture in his sermon, that many historians and scholars would refute and was on very shaky ground. I sat and wondered, how many people in here know the background of what this guy is preaching?

Most serious Christians know that Easter was installed to replace Passover in order to further eliminate 'Judaizing' from the new covenant church.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You have it backwards. If someone has the capability of thinking more rationally, then they are much less likely to not accept a mountain of objective evidence that points a certain direction.

With some, deeply held beliefs, don't allow them to accept anything that may threaten their belief.

I thought we had determined (in a different thread) that rationality didn't depend on objective evidence ( that would be empiricism).
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,487
20,773
Orlando, Florida
✟1,515,928.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Most serious Christians know that Easter was installed to replace Passover in order to further eliminate 'Judaizing' from the new covenant church.

That's just your assertion, and a great many Christians would find it offensive. What exactly is your definition of a "serious Christian"?

And it totally misses the point... debating the merits of the holiday of Easter is not the issue bhsmte raised - the historical authenticity of the resurrection is the issue being addressed.
 
Upvote 0

Resha Caner

Expert Fool
Sep 16, 2010
9,171
1,398
✟163,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I would be pretty weirded out by a group that claimed 100% agreement. I'm not going to lie, I would think that it was a cult.

And so, haven't you eliminated all possibilities? If the Church were in 100% agreement it would "weird you out" and you would think it a cult. But if the Church isn't in 100% agreement, then it's not the Church.

It makes more sense to me to consider that the Church can work in the world as it is.

This goes back to my initial point. Belief preceding evidence is difficult to reach and impossible to validate. In grasping for belief, you're likely to default to whatever you grew up with, or to side with a particularly charismatic evangelist (or the religion of your spouse/significant other). Because of that, it doesn't seem like a very good way for God to reach out to humanity with the only means of salvation.

I think you're still missing my point. Yes, the way one is raised strongly influences you. That is why being raised in a Christian home is important. But whether one is or isn't doesn't determine the outcome. People both convert and deconvert. I happen to be a long way (theologically) from where I was raised despite the influence it had on me.

I'm not suggesting one believes without reason. But this idea of finding objective evidence is just nonsense. There is no such thing for finite, fallible beings such as we are. What I'm saying is that experiencing Christ precedes all else. Knowing the person precedes understanding what that person has done.

Though my examples always seem to fail, I don't know what else to do but keep trying. So let me ask which is better:

1) To hand my son (who has not yet taken algebra, geometry, or anything beyond elementary math) a precalculus book, tell him to read the chapter on series', and then go in search of the evidence that an infinite series can produce a finite sum, or

2) To introduce him to a math teacher, to expect him to respect and trust that teacher as an expert in his field, and to patiently await his progression toward an understanding of infinite series' knowing he might fail a few tests along the way

Further, to not expect that the English, history, gym or other "pagan" teachers can teach him math, but only the math teacher.

And finally, to think this is the best path even if students of math are still arguing over whether 0.999... = 1 or not.

- - -

Now the parallel. Which is better:

1) To hand my son the Bible and tell him to go seek the evidence that it's true, or

2) To introduce him to Christ and patiently await his progression toward faith knowing he may fall away for a time (Prov 22:6).

Further, to not expect that Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, or other religions are going to help him understand Christianity.

And finally, to think this the best path even if theologians are still arguing over the filioque and its relation to the Trinity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This claim of yours betrays ignorance of the subject matter: There are CENTURIES of biblical textual and historical criticism.

Yes there are, so what?

What matters, is how the historical criticism is carried out. Is it done in an objective way and following the historical method, or is it done with a preconceived end game in mind?

If one takes the time and reads enough from many sources, the historical credibility of the NT is a mixed bag at best, and I am being kind.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.