Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

That's ridiculous.
I have tons of scripture if you want to see it. But you don't.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it unbiblical. Especially after all the scripture we have shared with you. Repeat... shared with you.

I'll have you know that I've been told what's scriptural and what isn't, thank you very much.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'll have you know that I've been told what's scriptural and what isn't, thank you very much.

They should really cut all the UR verses out of their Bibles. There wouldn't be much left. Swiss cheese.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't see much point in investing time and energy arguing about something you don't understand. Most Christians I know of even learn about other religions like Islam and Hinduism before debating with a Muslims and Hindus.
As a matter of fact I'm going to start digging deeper into what the Jews believed and taught during the 400 year intertestamental period.

What source material do you plan on using? I have been posting quotes from the Talmud, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica for a few decades you won't believe them so I would be very interested in what you consider reliable sources? My guess it will be the usual quotes from UR websites and UR "scholars."

Links to Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Gehinnom

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

 

[ozso]

What source material do you plan on using? I have been posting quotes from the Talmud, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica for a few decades you won't believe them so I would be very interested in what you consider reliable sources?

Please you cherry picked some snippets, big deal. And yes I don't believe in the Talmud and
unscriptural Jewish mythology and mysticism, shocking as that may be.

But I'm going to study it all the same like I once studied Mormonism. And I'll probably quickly learn far more about it than what you have in those snippets.

My guess it will be the usual quotes from UR websites and UR "scholars."

My pursuit in learning more about this has little to do with universalism. My guess is "scholars" = anyone who doesn't support your doctrinal view.

 

[ozso]

They should really cut all the UR verses out of their Bibles. There wouldn't be much left. Swiss cheese.

You're making me hungry.

 

[Hmm]

They should really cut all the UR verses out of their Bibles. There wouldn't be much left. Swiss cheese.

Is this Cheesus?

 

[Der Alte]

Please you cherry picked some snippets, big deal

WRONG! I quoted in-context passages, from 3 Jewish sources, which supported the proposition I posted. The proposition is, among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was s significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both Ge hinnom and Sheol which is written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and Hades. I challenge you to prove me wrong, otherwise you have made a false accusation. And unlike them other guys I acknowledged that there were other beliefs among the Jews.

And yes I don't believe in the Talmud and

unscriptural Jewish mythology and mysticism, shocking as that may be

Your opinion is not relevant. I didn't quote any "unscriptural Jewish mythology and mysticism," The fact that there may be some mythological stuff in thew Talmud does NOT detract from the historical information which is there as shown by the two Jewish encyclopedias I also quoted.

But I'm going to study it all the same like I once studied Mormonism. And I'll probably quickly learn far more about it than what you have in those snippets.

Be my guest 3+ decades and I have not been shown to be wrong yet. I even provided links to my sources because I have absolutely zero concern that anything I post will be found to be false. Other folks not so much .

My pursuit in learning more about this has little to do with universalism. My guess is "scholars" = anyone who doesn't support your doctrinal view

Some of the so-called "scholars" you and other UR-ites quote don't merit the title. See e.g. Robert Young author of "Young's 'Literal" Translation." He was self taught in Greek and Hebrew but is held up as the be all, end all expert in both languages. Who said Young's translation was "literal?" It was not a reviewing team at a publishing house or Seminary. It was Young himself. What does that tell you?

 

[Jamdoc]

That's ridiculous.
I have tons of scripture if you want to see it. But you don't.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it unbiblical. Especially after all the scripture we have shared with you. Repeat... shared with you.

Cherrypicked verses and having to ignore other passages which clearly teach eternal punishment is not biblical.
People can come to all kinds of doctrine based on single out of context verses even if it defies the consistent message across the bible.

 

[Jamdoc]

A faith that can't stand up to a little criticism is not much of a faith.

What do you like best about hell?
You are fighting tooth and claw to protect it. What value do you see?

I don't like hell at all.
But Jesus preached about Hell and I believe Him.

I accept hard truths from the bible, even ones that I do not like.

 

[wendykvw]

I don't like hell at all.
But Jesus preached about Hell and I believe Him.

I accept hard truths from the bible, even ones that I do not like.

What is hard to believe may actually be wrong. Human sensibility.


The United States has in place the Constitution the prevention of cruel and unusual punishment. The reason being that criminals are still human beings and should not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. God who is full of love, mercy, compassion and grace would not behave in such a cruel manner. It is inconsistent with His nature and character. I believed the doctrine of eternal hell 100% for over 20 yrs. Never had a problem with it, it only began to change when I saw how cruel I became to other believers who did not agree with my version of Christianity, it was at that point God literally told me to re-think my faith. The key is I had to “think” about what I believed. If we believe God is cruel enough to allow suffering and torment for infinity we will behave accordingly.

 

[Jamdoc]

What is hard to believe may actually be wrong. Human sensibility.


The United States has in place the Constitution the prevention of cruel and unusual punishment. The reason being that criminals are still human beings and should not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. God who is full of love, mercy, compassion and grace would not behave in such a cruel manner. It is inconsistent with His nature and character. I believed the doctrine of eternal hell 100% for over 20 yrs. Never had a problem with it, it only began to change when I saw how cruel I became to other believers who did not agree with my version of Christianity, it was at that point God literally told me to re-think my faith. The key is I had to “think” about what I believed. If we believe God is cruel enough to allow suffering and torment for infinity we will behave accordingly.

So what do you do with all the times Jesus says "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"?

 

[ozso]

WRONG! Your opinion is not relevant.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Der Alte]

What is hard to believe may actually be wrong. Human sensibility.
The United States has in place the Constitution the prevention of cruel and unusual punishment. The reason being that criminals are still human beings and should not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. God who is full of love, mercy, compassion and grace would not behave in such a cruel manner. It is inconsistent with His nature and character. I believed the doctrine of eternal hell 100% for over 20 yrs. Never had a problem with it, it only began to change when I saw how cruel I became to other believers who did not agree with my version of Christianity, it was at that point God literally told me to re-think my faith. The key is I had to “think” about what I believed. If we believe God is cruel enough to allow suffering and torment for infinity we will behave accordingly.

Would you consider the killing millions, all the inhabitants of earth, men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by drowning, except for Noah and his family, cruel and unusual punishment? I have a picture in my mind of mothers and fathers holding their children and babies above their heads trying to prevent them from drowning.
Would you consider the killing 100s of thousands, all the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by fire cruel and un usual punishment.
Would you consider killing thousands, all of the inhabitants of the Cities in Canaan; men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by spear and sword cruel and unusual punishment?

 

[ozso]

Would you consider the killing millions, all the inhabitants of earth, men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by drowning, except for Noah and his family, cruel and unusual punishment? I have a picture in my mind of mothers and fathers holding their children and babies above their heads trying to prevent them from drowning.
Would you consider the killing 100s of thousands, all the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by fire cruel and un usual punishment.
Would you consider killing thousands, all of the inhabitants of the Cities in Canaan; men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by spear and sword cruel and unusual punishment?

Seems quite mild compared to eternal torment.

 

[ozso]

So what do you do with all the times Jesus says "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"?

After what the Romans did to the Jews within a generation of Jesus saying that, there was probably a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[ozso]

I quoted in-context passages, from 3 Jewish sources, which supported the proposition I posted. The proposition is, among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was s significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both Ge hinnom and Sheol which is written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as Gehenna and Hades. I challenge you to prove me wrong, otherwise you have made a false accusation. And unlike them other guys I acknowledged that there were other beliefs among the Jews.

I'm not disputing what they came to believe during the intertestamental period. The question is, how they developed that belief. Where it came from. Did it come from God, or from those who occupied their land? They had quite a history of adopting the pagan beliefs of others after all. Perhaps the Pharisees came up with it as a tool of intimidation.

 

[wendykvw]

So what do you do with all the times Jesus says "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"?

Hyperbolic expression of regret and even pain for the awareness of how sin hurts others. Punishment is not a vacation, because of God’s mercy it is limited but it as painful as chemo or surgery. The outcome is spiritual wholeness and our relationship with God is restored when we learn the full scope of sin and how it affected others.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

So you're perfectly comfortable and not at all sad, that all sea animals just go extinct, even though they did not sin?
that all things are made new.. except 70% of this planet?

yes, and are you perfectly miserable because they all die someday? And how does that make their outcome any different ? Yet, it leaves you sad!

 

[wendykvw]

Would you consider the killing millions, all the inhabitants of earth, men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by drowning, except for Noah and his family, cruel and unusual punishment? I have a picture in my mind of mothers and fathers holding their children and babies above their heads trying to prevent them from drowning.
Would you consider the killing 100s of thousands, all the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by fire cruel and un usual punishment.
Would you consider killing thousands, all of the inhabitants of the Cities in Canaan; men, women, old, young, children, infants, healthy and cripple, by spear and sword cruel and unusual punishment?

Yes God did those things because He knew their heart.

According to your view they are currently being tortured. According to my view they are restored. God has enlighten them through punishment with an out come of celebration. My position believes God’s infinite wisdom can raise the dead, heal the sick and blind, and can restore evil humans to their original pre-fallen condition.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not disputing what they came to believe during the intertestamental period. The question is, how they developed that belief. Where it came from. Did it come from God, or from those who occupied their land? They had quite a history of adopting the pagan beliefs of others after all. Perhaps the Pharisees came up with it as a tool of intimidation.

Had you bothered to read my posts. All these specious objections were addressed. And what the Jews believed was mirrored by Jesus. All in my post.