Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Water and Fire]

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

Yes, and those things themselves are symbols, so they don't explain anything.

 

[ozso]

There is little meaning to salvation if we are not saved FROM something.

Why does that something have to be eternal hell-fire?

Are there any Old Testament Messianic prophecies that say anything about Him saving us from eternal hell-fire? Did Paul say Jesus saves us from hell-fire?

 

[Water and Fire]

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


From the prophet Joel. Now whilst Acts doesn't explain what those symbols are, it does make it clear that they are symbolic.


You're welcome!

 

[Water and Fire]

Why does that something have to be eternal hell-fire?

Are there any Old Testament Messianic prophecies that say anything about Him saving us from eternal hell-fire? Did Paul say Jesus saves us from hell-fire?

Because, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[ozso]

it's a game so simple a child can figure it out if you want to look at it as a game. I mean there are simplistic systems like "the ABC's of salvation" out there, Jesus Himself said that you have to become like a child (total trust, total belief), and Paul referred to it as "the simplicity that is in Christ"

So.. what's the motivation to sharing the Gospel if you believe everyone makes it anyway?

Universalists believe there isn't a judgement or that the consequences of it at least are not eternal, everyone eventually "makes it" That means there's nothing on the line without sharing the Gospel with someone, because they'll "make it" and it'll be worth whatever they suffered, God will wipe away every tear.

Atheists believe there isn't a judgement at all, they just cease to exist, so they live wickedly without shame. Obviously they don't have a gospel to share.

Annihilationists believe the worst thing that can happen is ... simply what the Atheists expect to happen.. so what's the point of preaching the Gospel? It's almost as if there were no judgement.

ECT has urgency to share the gospel, because they know everyone's on their way to ECT and they don't want that for everyone, so they receive the good news that in Christ they can avoid ECT and in fact join Christ in heaven and on the New Earth.... and they want to spread that message so that other people can learn this message of hope. Knowing there is a judgement, and it can be absolutely horrible, but there's a way for your sins to be forgiven rather than being judged by them.

So there's a judgement, and an urgency to share the Gospel.
I just wish I was better at it.

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

 

[Saint Steven]

So.. what's the motivation to sharing the Gospel if you believe everyone makes it anyway?

That's a good question. I hope you will ask more of these rather than display your ignorance on the subject, as you have been. I don't expect you to believe in UR, but at least make an effort to understand it. I'll give you a lot of credit if you do. (for what it's worth)

To answer your wonderful question, I have a few things to say.
1) Following Jesus has value in this lifetime.
2) I question the faith of someone who joined the church solely to avoid hell.
3) Those who enter the afterlife without a restored relationship with God will have a more difficult process of restoration. Jesus said it would be better to go into the afterlife without a hand or an eye. That sounds pretty serious.
4) Salvation isn't limited to the Evangelical formula. See the scripture below.

Romans 2:14-15 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Water and Fire]

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

Yep. You would at least expect him to have warned Jezebel, but he didn't.

 

[Hmm]

Yep. You would at least expect him to have warned Jezebel, but he didn't.

Hey, this is my thread and that means that I supply all the humour that's required. Demarcation mate!

 

[Saint Steven]

Hey, this is my thread and that means that I supply all the humour that's required. Demarcation mate!

Humor?
You can't even spell it! - lol

 

[Hmm]

Humor?
You can't even spell it! - lol

England: humour
US: humor
England: What's this about?
US: Getting rid of u.

Some historical justification in that!

 

[Saint Steven]

England: humour
US: humor
England: What's this about?
US: Getting rid of u.

Some historical justification in that!

Y'all are still upset that we didn't invite you to the tea party in Boston harbor.

 

[Hmm]

Y'all are still upset that we didn't invite you to the tea party in Boston harbor.

Probably! It's very hard to forgive someone who deliberately didn't invite you to their party. It's been a few years since I was last invited to the local Team Hell's annual ball. I used to look forward to the symbolic burning of real-life unbiblical-Christians (subject to availability) but I'm trying very hard to forgive them and I hope to be universally restored to their invitation list soon.

 

[ozso]

Probably! It's very hard to forgive someone who deliberately didn't invite you to their party. It's been a few years since I was last invited to the local Team Hell's annual ball. I used to look forward to the symbolic burning of real-life unbiblical-Christians (subject to availability) but I'm trying very hard to forgive them and I hope to be universally restored to their invitation list soon.

I hear the music selection ranges from Hell's Bells to Disco Inferno.

 

[Hmm]

I here the music selection ranges from Hell's Bells to Disco Inferno.

Groan! The door's this way...

 

[Der Alte]

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

No?
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
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…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “ Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:” Matthew 25:41

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28- 31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment[Matt 25:46]” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ([Judith xvi:17]).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[Der Alte]

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

Isaiah 11:2
(2) And the spirit of the LORD[1] shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom[2] and understanding[3], the spirit of counsel [4]and might[5], the spirit of knowledge[6] and of the fear of the LORD[7];

 

[Jamdoc]

Then why did you say, "few there be that find it"?
Sounds like a difficult game with a lot of losers.
Perhaps that scripture is about something else?
Didn't @MMXX just explain that to us?

The reason few find it is the matter of having a child like belief and willingness to accept a free gift.
ask most people, even most self professing Christians how to get to heaven, and they'll tell you they have to do x and they have to do that good works, obey the 10 commandments, be a good person, etc etc etc.
if you tell them all you have to do is believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah, the Son of God as He said He is, that He died for their sins and was resurrected... as scripture tells us... many people will balk at it.
Pride in themselves prevents them from accepting something so simple as how they get to heaven.
No no no... of course you also need to be baptized and take communion
you need good works
you need to obey the commandments, and be holy... you need to be a member of a specific church or denomination.... etc etc.

But when the bible has less requirements than that?
Well.. you go with what the bible says about it.

John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 10:9
If ANYTHING else is required other than that simple "believe", then those verses are lies. God cannot lie.

Salvation is simple to the point that it's hard because people want to make it more complicated. But you have to look at it that if you attach a bunch of rerquirements to it, WHICH of those requirements is the thing that saved you, which is the thing that atoned for your sins? That is what your faith is actually in.

Matthew 7 has those professing Jesus as Lord, but then offering their good works as how they earned their way in.
Jesus says He never knew them.
The reason why is because they relied on their works to earn their way in, not a personal relationship with Jesus. Their faith was in their works, not in Jesus. As a result? No saving relationship, because their faith, what they believed saved them, was not Jesus. It's not just believe Jesus exists and Jesus is Lord, it's believe that Jesus died to atone for your sins. That He did it for you.

Confronted by the same scenario of being before God at the judgement.. all I can offer in my defense is that Jesus died for my sins. Ever since I've been saved, I've had trouble accepting a lot of biblical doctrines and can easily see both sides of some theological debates and I have doubts in my mind, I struggle with a lot of things... the solitary thing that I do know without any doubt though, is that Jesus is the Son of God and He died to pay the penalty for my sins in my place.
That's it, that's the only thing I have 100% surety on.

 

[Jamdoc]

What about all the Christians who have a powerful testimony of all the things they were saved from in this life through accepting Jesus? Why does the Old Testament talk so much about salvation, but doesn't say anything about eternal hell?
Why does David in Psalm 51 say “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation", when Moses and the prophets never said anything about eternal damnation in hell-fire?

Progressive Revelation. There wasn't a revelation of any way going to heaven in the books of Moses either, and there was not a promise of a New Earth until Isaiah I believe.

as far as testimony, sure, God can save someone out of sin, but why is that in particular a good thing if there is no judgement?
Many people find those sins enjoyable
But if there's a judgement, and ECT is the punishment from that Judgement... then being saved out of sin is an amazing thing because those sins would have condemned you now you live in no condemnation.

 

[ozso]

Progressive Revelation. There wasn't a revelation of any way going to heaven in the books of Moses either, and there was not a promise of a New Earth until Isaiah I believe.

as far as testimony, sure, God can save someone out of sin, but why is that in particular a good thing if there is no judgement?
Many people find those sins enjoyable
But if there's a judgement, and ECT is the punishment from that Judgement... then being saved out of sin is an amazing thing because those sins would have condemned you now you live in no condemnation.

It sounds like you're saying ECT is the only reason for being a Christian. That without it being a Christian is pointless. That there's no motivation to embrace Jesus as Lord except to escape ECT.

 

[Jamdoc]

It sounds like you're saying ECT is the only reason for being a Christian. That without it being a Christian is pointless. That there's no motivation to embrace Jesus as Lord except to escape ECT.

No, not at all, the point of being a Christian is to love Christ.
Christ paying the penalty for our sin for us, gives us a reason to love Him, a personal reason.
There are also rewards.
But unlike the punishments, the bible IS Fuzzy about the rewards to the point of Paul just saying eye has not seen nor ear heard.. etc.

The punishments is clear.
The rewards are unimaginable.