Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Jamdoc]

OK, whatever you say, champ!

What's the points of the warnings if universalism is biblical?
We're encouraged through chastisement that heaven is worth it.

But we're warned about those not in Christ, that won't inherit the kingdom, and the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever.

 

[ozso]

What's the points of the warnings if universalism is biblical?
We're encouraged through chastisement that heaven is worth it.

But we're warned about those not in Christ, that won't inherit the kingdom, and the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever.

All of that is abundantly known to universalists. Including PhD Bible scholar theologian universalists. It's not easily dismissed when one knows all the particulars.

This is a pretty good lecture by a well known respected Bible teacher, who is not a universalist.

 

[Water and Fire]

What's the points of the warnings if universalism is biblical?
We're encouraged through chastisement that heaven is worth it.

But we're warned about those not in Christ, that won't inherit the kingdom, and the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever.

If it's all a warning, it kind of defeats the purpose to have it real meaning of everything hidden.

 

[Water and Fire]

All of that is abundantly known to universalists. Including PhD Bible scholar theologian universalists. It's not easily dismissed when one knows all the particulars.

This is a pretty good lecture by a well known respected Bible teacher, who is not a universalist.

I dunno man... it's seems pretty easy to dismiss by those who don't seem to understand what a parable is.

 

[Hmm]

I dunno man... it's seems pretty easy to dismiss by those who don't seem to understand what a parable is.

Yes, being a literalist means you have to resort to theological gymnastics to rationalise all the problematic things in scripture. This makes the Bible inaccessible whereas Christ taught in accessible parables to the common people.

Leaving a parable as a parable means anyone can pick up the book, see the problem and the solution together regardless of translation or version and without becoming delusional trying to believe all kinds of contradictory things such as ALL doesn't mean ALL and an English translation is more accurate than the original Greek.

 

[Water and Fire]

Yes, being a literalist means you have to resort to theological gymnastics to rationalise all the problematic things in scripture. This makes the Bible inaccessible whereas Christ taught in accessible parables to the common people.

Leaving a parable as a parable means anyone can pick up the book, see the problem and the solution together regardless of translation or version and without becoming delusional trying to believe all kinds of contradictory things such as ALL doesn't mean ALL and an English translation is more accurate than the original Greek.

Only thing is, Christ taught in parables, so that not just anyone could understand... and those parables have done their job very well.


Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


And he continues to speak to the multitude in parables, but those who don't understand the parables, will swear blind that they understand what he is saying.

 

[Jamdoc]

If it's all a warning, it kind of defeats the purpose to have it real meaning of everything hidden.

God does not hide, God reveals Himself
that's why we have a bible.
It's God revealing His will.
and that includes warning of the consequences of our sin.

and if inspired scripture says tormented for ever and ever...
then that's what I believe.

 

[Jamdoc]

Only thing is, Christ taught in parables, so that not just anyone could understand... and those parables have done their job very well.


Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


And he continues to speak to the multitude in parables, but those who don't understand the parables, will swear blind that they understand what he is saying.

Revelation was not a parable.
and not everything Jesus said was a parable.
Jesus was not speaking in parables when he talked about Judas betraying him and it'd be better for Judas if he'd never been born.

 

[Water and Fire]

God does not hide, God reveals Himself
that's why we have a bible.
It's God revealing His will.
and that includes warning of the consequences of our sin.

and if inspired scripture says tormented for ever and ever...
then that's what I believe.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.



Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[Hmm]

Only thing is, Christ taught in parables, so that not just anyone could understand... and those parables have done their job very well.


Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


And he continues to speak to the multitude in parables, but those who don't understand the parables, will swear blind that they understand what he is saying.

It's something else that has complexity then!

When the apostles asked Jesus why he speaks in parables, he says "This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.'"

I wonder if this actually supports the idea.of universalism? Jesus comes to brings truth to us but he conceals himself from many/most us at the same time. So right here on Earth can't be the place where many of us will understand God.

The basic Team Hell argument is "Jesus gave us everything we need to believe and get to heaven so it's our own fault if we don't make it. And there's no more development after this life because God will be done with you and will have switched from forgiving Father into torturing mode." But if Jesus kept truth away from many of us then this argument is shown to be false. A more consistent argument is that this life is just the first step and there's a lot more truth to come.

 

[Water and Fire]

Revelation was not a parable.
and not everything Jesus said was a parable.
Jesus was not speaking in parables when he talked about Judas betraying him and it'd be better for Judas if he'd never been born.

So you worship a literal four footed barn animal then, do you?


Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


Mar 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

 

[Water and Fire]

It's something else that has complexity then!

When the apostles asked Jesus why he speaks in parables, he says "This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.'"

I wonder if this actually supports the idea.of universalism? Jesus comes to brings truth to us but he conceals himself from many/most us at the same time. So right here on Earth can't be the place where many of us will understand God.

The basic Team Hell argument is "Jesus gave us everything we need to believe and get to heaven so it's our own fault if we don't make it. And there's no more development after this life because God will be done with you and will have switched from forgiving Father into torturing mode." But if Jesus kept truth away from many of us then this argument is shown to be false. A more consistent argument is that this life is just the first step and there's a lot more truth to come.

Well, he came to preach the gospel, but it is only given to relatively few to understand. Some of the confusion is created by the fact that there are two groups, but the way people understand it is, there are those who are saved, and those who aren't and are going to hell, but that's not how it is.

The two groups are God's elect, chosen from the foundation of the world, and everyone else. It is through those elect, that everyone else comes in. This is foreshadowed in Exodus, with feast of the first fruits. The first fruits come in, and they are God's, then there is the ingathering. What is being said there, is that it is through the first fruits that rest of the harvest comes in. It is not give to the rest of the harvest to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, at this time. That is why the elect are called kings and priests. Kings rule and priests minster.


Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[Jamdoc]

So you worship a literal four footed barn animal then, do you?


Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.


Mar 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Don't argue ad absurdium.
Revelation explains its own symbols.

and look at the last clause of the quotation from Mark. When they were alone He expounded all things. He explained the parables to them. Many of Jesus' parables are explained in the text. Jesus was not without revealing to those who believe in Him. To those who didn't believe in Him, he spoke in nonsense parables and they couldn't always figure out what they meant (however sometimes they did, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him right then and there when Jesus told them the parable of the wicked husbandmen and they picked up it was referring to them), but to his disciples who believed in Him, Jesus explained what the parables meant when they asked Him.

 

[Water and Fire]

Don't argue ad absurdium.
Revelation explains its own symbols.

and look at the last clause of the quotation from Mark. When they were alone He expounded all things. He explained the parables to them. Many of Jesus' parables are explained in the text. Jesus was not without revealing to those who believe in Him. To those who didn't believe in Him, he spoke in nonsense parables and they couldn't always figure out what they meant (however sometimes they did, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him right then and there when Jesus told them the parable of the wicked husbandmen and they picked up it was referring to them), but to his disciples who believed in Him, Jesus explained what the parables meant when they asked Him.

Revelation explains it's own symbols? You really don't know what you are talking about, man.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus Himself warned that few would find Him.

So, he predestined the vast majority for ECT? (eternal conscious torment)

Made our eternal destiny a game, a puzzle to solve, with dire consequences for the losers?

 

[Saint Steven]

There is little meaning to salvation if we are not saved FROM something.

That is actually a good point. I need to think about that. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not everyone goes to Heaven, Universalism is unbiblical and false attack on Jesus Christ.

How can you say that after I posted this?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Not biblical?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation explains it's own symbols? You really don't know what you are talking about, man.

in the text, the symbols are explained, like the 7 horns the lamb has Revelation 5 explains they are the 7 spirits of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

So, he predestined the vast majority for ECT? (eternal conscious torment)

Made our eternal destiny a game, a puzzle to solve, with dire consequences for the losers?

it's a game so simple a child can figure it out if you want to look at it as a game. I mean there are simplistic systems like "the ABC's of salvation" out there, Jesus Himself said that you have to become like a child (total trust, total belief), and Paul referred to it as "the simplicity that is in Christ"

So.. what's the motivation to sharing the Gospel if you believe everyone makes it anyway?

Universalists believe there isn't a judgement or that the consequences of it at least are not eternal, everyone eventually "makes it" That means there's nothing on the line without sharing the Gospel with someone, because they'll "make it" and it'll be worth whatever they suffered, God will wipe away every tear.

Atheists believe there isn't a judgement at all, they just cease to exist, so they live wickedly without shame. Obviously they don't have a gospel to share.

Annihilationists believe the worst thing that can happen is ... simply what the Atheists expect to happen.. so what's the point of preaching the Gospel? It's almost as if there were no judgement.

ECT has urgency to share the gospel, because they know everyone's on their way to ECT and they don't want that for everyone, so they receive the good news that in Christ they can avoid ECT and in fact join Christ in heaven and on the New Earth.... and they want to spread that message so that other people can learn this message of hope. Knowing there is a judgement, and it can be absolutely horrible, but there's a way for your sins to be forgiven rather than being judged by them.

So there's a judgement, and an urgency to share the Gospel.
I just wish I was better at it.

 

[Saint Steven]

it's a game so simple a child can figure it out if you want to look at it as a game.

Then why did you say, "few there be that find it"?
Sounds like a difficult game with a lot of losers.
Perhaps that scripture is about something else?
Didn't @MMXX just explain that to us?