Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Jamdoc]

Did Jesus succeed or fail his mission?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Jesus Himself warned that few would find Him.
you can cut out all the warnings in the bible about hell if nobody goes there.

Romans 9

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This is a difficult section of scripture to wrap your mind around...

but yes.
God did literally make people who will inevitably be judged and punished for their sins forever, and He does it in order to greater show His grace to us who He chose for salvation.

There is little meaning to salvation if we are not saved FROM something.

He is sovereign, and sometimes that sovereignty, and severity, is frightening.
It should be. Jesus told us to fear the Father, and in fact told us to fear nothing else.

 

[Cockcrow]

Not biblical?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Not everyone goes to Heaven, Universalism is unbiblical and false attack on Jesus Christ.

John 7:33-34 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

John 8:21-26 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Luke 13:24-28 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Philippians 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 18:8-9
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever

Revelation 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Proverbs 11:7 When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.

Job 8:13 So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:

1 Thessalonians 4:13, Ephesians 2:12, Ecclesiastes 9:4, Proverbs 14:32

These are just a few of the many verses that refute Universalism and "everybody goes to Heaven" but really there are many more I could list here from all over the Bible, the scripture is clear when you take the time to read it that not everyone will be saved. Universalism contradicts Jesus Christ. Anyone who thinks that everyone will be saved is clearly misinterpreting scripture and the message of Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross. This is a very wicked and unbiblical false teaching and spiritual attack on all believers of Jesus.

 

[ozso]

"Depart from me, ye accursed, into everlasting fire" doesn't sound like God winks at sin and is going to save everyone regardless of their belief.

What verse is that?

 

[Jamdoc]

The passage you quoted from isn't about belief. It's strictly about woks of charity.

True, but we also know there is no condemnation for those who believe in Him.

John 3

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Water and Fire]

True, but we also know there is no condemnation for those who believe in Him.

John 3

Where do you get that idea?


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[ozso]

True, but we also know there is no condemnation for those who believe in Him.

Actually I took that back, because what you quoted doesn't exist. It was a congolmeration of two passages. But let's stick with the one I think you intended, which is Matthew 25:46, before deflecting to somewhere else.

That's by far the most used verse as proof that hell is eternal torment. However what gets glossed over by those who use it so much, is what Jesus is saying gets you into heaven for eternity up to that beloved eternal torment verse. People who love Mt 25:46 get frustrated and angry when I bring it up. That Jesus is saying quite clearly that if you just give a cup of water to the least person on earth, you will receive eternal life in heaven.

People want to use Matthew 25:46 as 100% literal. But not Matthew 25:31-45 which leads up to it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think the overwhelming majority of the blame goes to the leaders in Rome that invited Luther to discuss his ‘thesis’ and then attempted to assassinate him rather than talk.

However anytime the RCC is interested in discarding the dross that it has added to what Jesus and the Apostles taught, the Church will take a giant step closer to unification. Instead the movement is on to elevate the Queen of Heaven to Co-Redemptrix. The Bible says there is only one Redeemer … get with the program.

I see some folks are happy to continue on in their position of smug superiority and innocence and postulating straw men. Oh well.

 

[wendykvw]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

Excellent question. In Judaism the afterlife is not a dominant thought, according to Rabbi’s the goal should be to help our fellow man and to focus on doing our best while we are here. Christianity seems to over focus on afterlife punishment, yet fails to emphasize Christ and the principles He taught, especially Matthew 25:41. This particular verse is used the most to support the Ect. However when one reads more closely this chapter is pointing out to the religiously minded that they would be on the left because they failed at having love and compassion for their fellow man.

 

[Jamdoc]

Where do you get that idea?


Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

From John 3, and Romans 8.
Now, regarding Matthew 7.
Understand what those people offer in their defense: their works.
They didn't have saving faith in Jesus they looked to their works.

 

[ozso]

From John 3, and Romans 8.
Now, regarding Matthew 7.
Understand what those people offer in their defense: their works.
They didn't have saving faith in Jesus they looked to their works.

What about Matthew 25:31-46 in regard to salvation through works?

 

[Water and Fire]

From John 3, and Romans 8.
Now, regarding Matthew 7.
Understand what those people offer in their defense: their works.
They didn't have saving faith in Jesus they looked to their works.

By what authority do you make that claim? Scripture please?

 

[Jamdoc]

Actually I took that back, because what you quoted doesn't exist. It was a congolmeration of two passages. But let's stick with the one I think you intended, which is Matthew 25:46, before deflecting to somewhere else.

That's by far the most used verse as proof that hell is eternal torment. However what gets glossed over by those who use it so much, is what Jesus is saying gets you into heaven for eternity up to that beloved eternal torment verse. People who love Mt 25:46 get frustrated and angry when I bring it up. That Jesus is saying quite clearly that if you just give a cup of water to the least person on earth, you will receive eternal life in heaven.

People want to use Matthew 25:46 as 100% literal. But not Matthew 25:31-45 which leads up to it.

What I quoted was part of a verse, not the full verse.

Matthew 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The point was not the particulars of what those people did that got them cast into the everlasting fire, but that there is an everlasting fire for punishment.

You want to argue a point that there is no everlasting fire for punishment by splitting hairs as to who in particular the bible says goes there.

The point is, eternal punishment exists.
as for who goes there, well...

all who are not written in the lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But more specifically...

Revelation 21

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Which is ultimately everyone, unless those sins that everyone has committed, are forgiven, having been paid for by Christ... which is not everyone, otherwise, there wouldn't be the threat of the lake of fire at all.
Having a punishment there means that some people do go to it. The Beast and the False Prophet and Satan at the very least, though it will outpopulate the new Earth.. but a considerable amount I fear.

Revelation 20

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But that single verse right there shuts down universalism.
Because it's not universal if the beast and false prophet at least go into everlasting punishment, tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If you're premillennial, then you know at this point the beast and false prophet have been there for the past 1000 years.

 

[Water and Fire]

What I quoted was part of a verse, not the full verse.

Matthew 25


The point was not the particulars of what those people did that got them cast into the everlasting fire, but that there is an everlasting fire for punishment.

You want to argue a point that there is no everlasting fire for punishment by splitting hairs as to who in particular the bible says goes there.

The point is, eternal punishment exists.
as for who goes there, well...

all who are not written in the lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20


But more specifically...

Revelation 21


Which is ultimately everyone, unless those sins that everyone has committed, are forgiven, having been paid for by Christ... which is not everyone, otherwise, there wouldn't be the threat of the lake of fire at all.
Having a punishment there means that some people do go to it. The Beast and the False Prophet and Satan at the very least, though it will outpopulate the new Earth.. but a considerable amount I fear.

Revelation 20


But that single verse right there shuts down universalism.
Because it's not universal if the beast and false prophet at least go into everlasting punishment, tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If you're premillennial, then you know at this point the beast and false prophet have been there for the past 1000 years.

Same verses, different translations.


Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."


Also:


Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.


Hmm... funny how Sodom suffers the vengeance of eternal fire, yet is returned to her former estate.

 

[Jamdoc]

By what authority do you make that claim? Scripture please?

That's what the scripture you quoted says

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Their defense was not their faith
their defense was not the Word of God and God's promises.

Their defense was works that they did in Jesus' name.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What were they doing in offering these works as their justification?
Boasting.

 

[Water and Fire]

That's what the scripture you quoted says



Their defense was not their faith
their defense was not the Word of God and God's promises.

Their defense was works that they did in Jesus' name.

Ephesians 2


What were they doing in offering these works as their justification?
Boasting.

My point was that they were Christians.

 

[Jamdoc]

Same verses, different translations.


Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."


Also:


Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.


Hmm... funny how Sodom suffers the vengeance of eternal fire, yet is returned to her former estate.

Lot and his daughters came from Sodom, and they.. took advantage of their drunk father and conceived children.
So the daughters of Sodom, are likely the Moabites and Ammonites.

But Sodom itself...

Jeremiah 49

18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the Lord, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it.

 

[Jamdoc]

My point was that they were Christians.

Self proclaimed Christians, but them offering up their works for justification .... kind of hints that they didn't really get it.
Jesus said He never knew them.

But, either way you look at it... it shoots down universalism.

Universalism is utterly indefensible without ignoring a good chunk of the bible that states that there is punishment and not everyone goes to heaven or eternal life.

 

[Water and Fire]

Self proclaimed Christians, but them offering up their works for justification .... kind of hints that they didn't really get it.
Jesus said He never knew them.

But, either way you look at it... it shoots down universalism.

Universalism is utterly indefensible without ignoring a good chunk of the bible that states that there is punishment and not everyone goes to heaven or eternal life.

OK, whatever you say, champ!

 

[ozso]

What I quoted was part of a verse, not the full verse.

Matthew 25


The point was not the particulars of what those people did that got them cast into the everlasting fire, but that there is an everlasting fire for punishment.

Just like I said. Cling to Matthew 25:46 as literal and absolute, but completely disregard the rest of what Jesus said leading up to it.

You want to argue a point that there is no everlasting fire for punishment by splitting hairs as to who in particular the bible says goes there.

No I want to exercise critical thinking as opposed to robotically cranking scripted replies.

The point is, eternal punishment exists.
as for who goes there, well...

all who are not written in the lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20


But more specifically...

Revelation 21


Which is ultimately everyone, unless those sins that everyone has committed, are forgiven, having been paid for by Christ... which is not everyone, otherwise, there wouldn't be the threat of the lake of fire at all.
Having a punishment there means that some people do go to it. The Beast and the False Prophet and Satan at the very least, though it will outpopulate the new Earth.. but a considerable amount I fear.

Revelation 20


But that single verse right there shuts down universalism.
Because it's not universal if the beast and false prophet at least go into everlasting punishment, tormented day and night for ever and ever.
If you're premillennial, then you know at this point the beast and false prophet have been there for the past 1000 years.

I know that's a particular doctrine that you've adopted. As for me, I know there are other Christian doctrines. You on the other hand probably don't know what you don't know about it.

 

[Hmm]

Actually I took that back, because what you quoted doesn't exist. It was a congolmeration of two passages. But let's stick with the one I think you intended, which is Matthew 25:46, before deflecting to somewhere else.
That's by far the most used verse as proof that hell is eternal torment. However what gets glossed over by those who use it so much, is what Jesus is saying gets you into heaven for eternity up to that beloved eternal torment verse. People who love Mt 25:46 get frustrated and angry when I bring it up. That Jesus is saying quite clearly that if you just give a cup of water to the least person on earth, you will receive eternal life in heaven.
People want to use Matthew 25:46 as 100% literal. But not Matthew 25:31-45 which leads up to it.

John Hanson describes how in the grave sites of early Christians in the Catacombs of Rome a common image made was that of a Shepherd with a sheep and a goat in each arm. They both belong to Him.

“It is well known that from the end of the First to the end of the Fourth Century, the early Christians buried their dead…in subterranean galleries excavated in the soft rock that underlies Rome. These ancient cemeteries were first uncovered in 1578…more than six, some estimates say eight million bodies are known to have been buried between AD 72 and AD 410…the emblems and inscriptions are most suggestive. The principal device [image], scratched on slabs, carved on utensils and rings, and seen almost everywhere is the Good Shepherd…but most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at that early date regarded as objects of the Savior’s solicitude, after departing from this life.” [“Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years”, J.W. Hanson, Pub. 1899; pg. 28-29]

Here's an example picture: