Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Der Alte]

Seems quite mild compared to eternal torment.

The question was about "cruel and unusual punishment" as mentioned in US law.

Yes God did those things because He knew their heart.
According to your view they are currently being tortured. According to my view they are restored. God has enlighten them through punishment with an out come of celebration. My position believes God’s infinite wisdom can raise the dead, heal the sick and blind, and can restore evil humans to their original pre-fallen condition.

There is no question that God can "raise the dead, heal the sick and blind, and can restore evil humans to their original pre-fallen condition," But where does God say He will do it after death?

 

[Hmm]

The question was about "cruel and unusual punishment" as mentioned in US law.


There is no question that God can "raise the dead, heal the sick and blind, and can restore evil humans to their original pre-fallen condition," But where does God say He will do it after death?

When else do you suggest He raises the dead? Before death?

 

[Jamdoc]

After what the Romans did to the Jews within a generation of Jesus saying that, there was probably a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

That's not what Jesus was talking about.
and I'm just not going to engage in preterism debate.

 

[Jamdoc]

yes, and are you perfectly miserable because they all die someday? And how does that make their outcome any different ? Yet, it leaves you sad!

I'm sad that they're not restored in the restoration of "all things"

 

[Der Alte]

When else do you suggest He raises the dead? Before death?

At the back of the Bible is a book Apocalypse also called Revelation. You should read it sometime.

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Cherrypicked verses and having to ignore other passages which clearly teach eternal punishment is not biblical.
People can come to all kinds of doctrine based on single out of context verses even if it defies the consistent message across the bible.

Pick any verse I have already quoted and let's have a look at the context.
I hear that complaint all the time. But when asked to prove it, I rarely hear back. How come?

 

[Jamdoc]

Pick any verse I have already quoted and let's have a look at the context.
I hear that complaint all the time. But when asked to prove it, I rarely hear back. How come?

I already did I don't know if it was your verses or someone else pushing your position but they wanted to use verses about the babylonian captivity to be referring to a post death purgatory, or the Great Tribulation of the 70th week to be referring to a post death purgatory.

if you're talking about verses about Christ not dying just for our sins but the sins of the whole world.. I already expressed that.

Salvation is AVAILABLE to everyone, but not everyone is saved whether they want to be or not.

Jesus and the Apostles constantly talked about there being few, or an elect group
not "hey everyone's saved"

 

[Saint Steven]

I already did I don't know if it was your verses or someone else pushing your position but they wanted to use verses about the babylonian captivity to be referring to a post death purgatory, or the Great Tribulation of the 70th week to be referring to a post death purgatory.

if you're talking about verses about Christ not dying just for our sins but the sins of the whole world.. I already expressed that.

Salvation is AVAILABLE to everyone, but not everyone is saved whether they want to be or not.

Jesus and the Apostles constantly talked about there being few, or an elect group
not "hey everyone's saved"

Thanks for proving my point.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Pick any verse I have already quoted and let's have a look at the context.
I hear that complaint all the time. But when asked to prove it, I rarely hear back. How come?

 

[Jamdoc]

Thanks for proving my point.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Pick any verse I have already quoted and let's have a look at the context.
I hear that complaint all the time. But when asked to prove it, I rarely hear back. How come?

I'm not digging back through the thread to find your posts.
Sorry to say but that's obnoxious.

 

[ozso]

The question was about "cruel and unusual punishment" as mentioned in US law.

Considering the creation of the US involved taking out a good portion of the native population, it obviously doesn't apply to such warfare.

 

[ozso]

Had you bothered to read my posts. All these specious objections were addressed. And what the Jews believed was mirrored by Jesus. All in my post.

I read and critiqued your magnum opus post a long time ago:
Critique of Der Alte's Three Sources Post

There's a lot more to learn.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not digging back through the thread to find your posts.
Sorry to say but that's obnoxious.

I'll do the heavy lifting for you.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'll do the heavy lifting for you.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Yes, eternal life is available to all who are in Christ.
But that is not everyone.
If they're not in Christ, they don't have eternal life, but they will be resurrected to the resurrection of damnation.
All mankind are in Adam, not all mankind are in Christ.
Jesus makes the distinction between those that are His, and those that are not His.

John 5

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Spoiler alert, we have all done evil. So without Christ to atone for us, we all go to damnation.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

...

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

There are 2 sides to final judgement
Those who are in Christ and those who are not

There are many, and I mean a majority of people on this planet, even if they believe in God, and heaven, believe that how you get there is to be a good person, and most of them believe they are good enough.
That is why many people witness by cross examining people against the 10 commandments, to show that before God.. they stand condemned and need a Savior.
But some would still prefer to stand on account of their own works, to which, God allows this, nobody is forced to choose the gift of salvation, they are free to stand on their own works, but they will not like the outcome.

 

[ozso]

What source material do you plan on using? I have been posting quotes from the Talmud, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica for a few decades you won't believe them so I would be very interested in what you consider reliable sources? My guess it will be the usual quotes from UR websites and UR "scholars."

Links to Jewish Encyclopedia, the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Gehinnom

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter

I'll check out a variety of sources of course, to get a well rounded comprehensive view.

 

[ozso]

This is interesting.

Traditional Judaism teaches that after death our bodies go to the grave but our souls go before God to be judged. God, as He states in Scripture, is the only one who knows our motives as well as our works—God sees the heart, whereas man looks at the outside (1Samuel 16:7). Facing the only true Judge, we are assigned a place in heaven according to a merit system based on God’s accounting of all our actions and motives. Traditional Jewish thought is that only the very righteous go directly to heaven; all others must be cleansed of residual sin.

According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom (also spelled Gehinom and Gehenna).

Do Jews believe in hell? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Der Alte]

This is interesting.
Traditional Judaism teaches that after death our bodies go to the grave but our souls go before God to be judged. God, as He states in Scripture, is the only one who knows our motives as well as our works—God sees the heart, whereas man looks at the outside (1Samuel 16:7). Facing the only true Judge, we are assigned a place in heaven according to a merit system based on God’s accounting of all our actions and motives. Traditional Jewish thought is that only the very righteous go directly to heaven; all others must be cleansed of residual sin.
According to traditional Judaism, sins that were not cleansed prior to death are removed after death in a place called Sheol or Gehinnom (also spelled Gehinom and Gehenna).
Do Jews believe in hell? | GotQuestions.org

Exactly what I thought. Does not merit a response. An anonymous website which does not list any credible, verifiable, historical etc. or scriptural evidence. All 3 sources which I quoted cited scriptural and historical evidence.

 

[Der Alte]

I read and critiqued your magnum opus post a long time ago:
Critique of Der Alte's Three Sources Post
There's a lot more to learn.

You are kidding right? This is a big joke? You quote an anonymous source, post #795, and blow off the sources I quoted because you can't, and made no attempt to, understand lexical and encyclopedic entries? All those entries are abbreviations for sources which the scholars consulted. With just a little bit of honest effort you could have asked me. Ergo you are not interested in the truth. Encyclopedia and Lexicons use abbreviations in the text and full titles etc. in a bibliography, usually at the back of the book. If a source title, author etc. is listed fully every time it is cited it would add many pages to the writing.
And FYI "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh!" Is not a critique. That you can't and made no attempt to understand the abbreviations does not invalidate my post.

 

[ozso]

You are kidding right? This is a big joke? You quote an anonymous source to me, post #795

That post wasn't to you.

and blow off the sources I quoted because you can't, and made no attempt to, understand lexical and encyclopedic entries? All those entries are abbreviations for sources which the scholars consulted. With just a little bit of honest effort you could have asked me. Ergo you are not interested in the truth. Encyclopedia and Lexicons use abbreviations in the text and full titles etc. in a bibliography, usually at the back of the book. If a source title, author etc. is listed fully every time it is cited it would add many pages to the writing.
And FYI "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh!" Is not a critique. That you can't and made no attempt to understand the abbreviations does not invalidate my post.

But I did read your post that you keep saying I didn't read several months ago. Maybe this weekend I'll polish it up for you.

 

[ozso]

Exactly what I thought. Does not merit a response. An anonymous website which does not list any credible, verifiable, historical etc. or scriptural evidence. All 3 sources which I quoted cited scriptural and historical evidence.

Did the except I posted say anything that's untrue?

 

[Der Alte]

That post wasn't to you.

It addressed a topic I am involved in. I have since changed it.

But I did read the post, right? Maybe this weekend I'll polish it up for you.

No evidence of that. You skimmed it trying to find a few things you thought you could refute.
And FYI the fact that eternal punishment was not the only view of the after life in ancient Israel does not in any way disprove anything in my posts.