Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

[Inkfingers]

Belief in a closet monster is not indicative of unsound reasoning. That is an empirical issue. There might be some universe that has closet monsters.

Also, a child's disposition to these types of fears is the exact reason that it is unethical to instill the fear of eternal damnation into a young mind. Exploitation of children is wrong.

Oh give it a rest.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I would be happy to,assist.

I put it in the Apologetics forum.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/morality.7968372/

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So why is it wrong for me to murder Johnny? I doubt you can provide an explanation that fits into a 5-year-old's understanding of the world.

I've created a thread on morality in the apologetics forum now, so you can participate there if you like.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/morality.7968372/

 

[mollieleonard]

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

I'm sorry if I still don't understand exactly what you mean by indoctrination, I needed an example or something; but reading your comments throughout the post I think I may have it now. I would like to say that from my experience as a teacher and pastor very few, if any, parents would hear a rebuke against indoctrination. Their motivations are often emotional not rational, based on their own experiences of indoctrination either with parents or the faith community, and often reinforced by a theological perceptive that is too self-reliant. They want what they think is best for their children and to do what they are commanded to do by scripture. This is evidenced by many of the replies you received.

Why is it necessary? Fear. You discussed one kind of fear that their children might go to hell, but there are many others. I have heard parents say that they chose a particular church because their children want to go there even though they themselves are nurtured somewhere else. Or this church has a great child or youth program, so we are going there for the kids. Basically, the parents are afraid their children will be unhappy and drop out or that their needs will not met or they will not date the "right" kind of people. These parents rarely hear that it is their spiritual growth and needs that need to be met first and to trust their children to God.

It is often acceptable because it is easier than authenticity. To follow Jesus is not spouting Bible verses to prove a point or rigid rules, it is radical, counter-cultural, risk taking. To take up your cross and follow Jesus means that nothing and no one (including your spouse and children) have your love and attention before God. Children, like adults, learn best by example. But when Christians fail to worship only God and to love one another they are afraid and force feeding becomes necessary.

 

[Catherineanne]

Why? You're saying that atheists who raise moral, productive members of society haven't properly performed their parental duty?

Exactly the opposite, in fact.

Atheists bring up their children in a way that seems appropriate to them, which I presume includes not sending them to Sunday School to learn stuff that the parents can't endorse. I would expect nothing else.

So why not allow Christian parents the same freedom?

 

[Catherineanne]

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

I'm sorry if I still don't understand exactly what you mean by indoctrination, I needed an example or something; but reading your comments throughout the post I think I may have it now. I would like to say that from my experience as a teacher and pastor very few, if any, parents would hear a rebuke against indoctrination. Their motivations are often emotional not rational, based on their own experiences of indoctrination either with parents or the faith community, and often reinforced by a theological perceptive that is too self-reliant. They want what they think is best for their children and to do what they are commanded to do by scripture. This is evidenced by many of the replies you received.

Why is it necessary? Fear. You discussed one kind of fear that their children might go to hell, but there are many others. I have heard parents say that they chose a particular church because their children want to go there even though they themselves are nurtured somewhere else. Or this church has a great child or youth program, so we are going there for the kids. Basically, the parents are afraid their children will be unhappy and drop out or that their needs will not met or they will not date the "right" kind of people. These parents rarely hear that it is their spiritual growth and needs that need to be met first and to trust their children to God.

It is often acceptable because it is easier than authenticity. To follow Jesus is not spouting Bible verses to prove a point or rigid rules, it is radical, counter-cultural, risk taking. To take up your cross and follow Jesus means that nothing and no one (including your spouse and children) have your love and attention before God. Children, like adults, learn best by example. But when Christians fail to worship only God and to love one another they are afraid and force feeding becomes necessary.

No, not fear; I have no fear whatever of anyone I know going to hell.

We teach our children what we know to be true, preferably in an age appropriate way. We do this in a very small part in what we say, and far more importantly in how we live. Why wouldn't we? Every single person on earth does the same, whatever their beliefs.

It is simply bizarre to suggest that Christians should behave differently from absolutely everyone else.

Really, really weird.

 

[Catherineanne]

I think for any sincere believer it is not just OK to indoctrinate their kids. It's their absolute duty and a righteous thing before God.

.... What a tragedy!!!

Tragedy!!!

 

[Catherineanne]

Then either you don't bother to look or to listen. It's really very simple. I am a person, you are a person. As such, you deserve the same respect I do...and your race, belief (or lack), sexual orientation, gender identification, immigration status don't matter. Unlike some "Christians" who think that respect is predicated on whether or not you are judged to be "worthy"...IOW, if you're a minority, illegal immigrant, gay, not Christian, transgender, poor, etc. you don't deserve to be treated decently.

Personally, the most moral people I've ever met were NOT Christians.

All of those values you mention above are a product of Christianity. They did not exist for the ancient Romans, or the ancient Egyptians or ancient Greeks. They did not even exist for the ancient Israelites. The innate value of every human being, regardless of status, is a Christian value. We may not always follow this value very well, but nonetheless it is a Christian value.

Any atheist may, of course, adopt such values, but make no mistake, when they do they are following the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Human Rights Act is grounded in Christian belief, whether it says so or not.

 

[Catherineanne]

"The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector." (Luke 18:11)

Thanking God for giving us the faith he did is not the same as thanking God that we are not sinners.

Totally different thing.

We are still sinners; every single last one of us.

 

[Catherineanne]

At 5 years old, a succinct "because it is wrong" should suffice. Failing that, the threat of going to jail should work. Kids can and do grow up to be moral beings without religion. As I said above, when you remove the outer governor on behavior and develop SELF control (which is one of those "fruit of the spirit) things, you don't need an outside push not to behave a certain way.

I never use the 'just because' argument. I use the 'How would you like someone to do that to you?' one instead.

If I see any of my neighbour children chasing a cat, for example, I ask if they would like me to chase them in that exact same way. Usually the answer is no.

Why is it wrong to kill? Because it would not be good to be killed. That is simple enough.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hey, I know this is a divisive issue. Personally my kids go to sunday school, but they do come up with some really cute questions about the Bible. Especially the murdering children in the OT and David wearing foreskin on his neck. So sweet, that our little munchkins can learn the holy word of YHWH.

This must be a joke. I hope.

I would not send any child to a Sunday School like that.

 

[Catherineanne]

Do that many 5 year olds actually ask why they can't murder people?

Agreed. I suspect 5 year olds have probably worked that one out for themselves. Children have a very strong innate sense of what is fair and what is not.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And I'm fine with that. Like I said, introduce your kid to a child's version of the Bible, tell them the gist of it, and then let the Holy Spirit guide them as they read it. If they have questions or doubts, do your best to answer. Doing more than this is just a lack of faith in the Holy Spirit, in my opinion.

Or, one could do what I do, which is to tell my child that my entire book collection is open to them for investigation (which covers quite a diverse number of non-Christian subjects, being the Philosophy student that I am), and still, on a regular basis, I then sit down with my family to read a more robust translation of the Bible, and I, as a father and husband, give it my best academic explanation. Would you count that as indoctrination, NV?

 

[Tree of Life]

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

Teaching children, or what you call "indoctrination", is acceptable and, indeed, unavoidable. All people are always teaching their children all of the time. The question is: "what are we teaching them" and "is our curriculum intentional"?

It's necessary to teach children because they're not born with knowledge and wisdom. So we're given the responsibility of teaching, guiding, and correcting them so that they would grow in knowledge, wisdom, and maturity and hopefully become the people that God intends for them to be.

Teaching children is one of the most important normal means that God has ordained for advancing his kingdom on the earth. It's one of the ways that God is at work in the quiet, slow, and mundane processes to transform the world. In fact, education of children is probably the most effective means of changing the world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).

Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).

I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

You are using negative words in association with the good teachings of God. Also, Eternal Torment is not Biblical, nor is Calvinism. For they are both immoral constructs.

Anyways, if something you believe is good for your child, then you are going to teach them those things. Pure and simple.

For you see the teachings of Christianity to a child as in-doctrination (i.e. something negative) because you see true Biblical Christianity as false (When it is not).

Yet, I see Atheism or Macro-Evolution as false and I would consider a child being taught these things as in-doctrination because I see these things as false and wrong. For there is no standard of Morality in Atheism or Macro-Evolution. Nobody has to answer to God in Atheism or Macro-Evolution. For in Atheism, morality is subjective and you can do whatever you like.


...

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

This must be a joke. I hope.

I would not send any child to a Sunday School like that.

If it's in God's word they should know it. I can't hide the Lord from them =(

 

[Just_a_Joe]

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

I'm sorry if I still don't understand exactly what you mean by indoctrination, I needed an example or something; but reading your comments throughout the post I think I may have it now. I would like to say that from my experience as a teacher and pastor very few, if any, parents would hear a rebuke against indoctrination. Their motivations are often emotional not rational, based on their own experiences of indoctrination either with parents or the faith community, and often reinforced by a theological perceptive that is too self-reliant. They want what they think is best for their children and to do what they are commanded to do by scripture. This is evidenced by many of the replies you received.

Why is it necessary? Fear. You discussed one kind of fear that their children might go to hell, but there are many others. I have heard parents say that they chose a particular church because their children want to go there even though they themselves are nurtured somewhere else. Or this church has a great child or youth program, so we are going there for the kids. Basically, the parents are afraid their children will be unhappy and drop out or that their needs will not met or they will not date the "right" kind of people. These parents rarely hear that it is their spiritual growth and needs that need to be met first and to trust their children to God.

It is often acceptable because it is easier than authenticity. To follow Jesus is not spouting Bible verses to prove a point or rigid rules, it is radical, counter-cultural, risk taking. To take up your cross and follow Jesus means that nothing and no one (including your spouse and children) have your love and attention before God. Children, like adults, learn best by example. But when Christians fail to worship only God and to love one another they are afraid and force feeding becomes necessary.

WOW. Just wow.

After many days at christianforums.com, finally one post from a Christian that actually makes sense! Your students and church people must be very lucky.

Your reply is honest and shows understanding of the simple message of Jesus. Amazing! Why is it so rare to see in churches and in faith?

May I ask you a hard question. Can you even for a second imagine that the Bible and thus Christianity is wrong? Not in its entirety, obviously, but in some of its important teachings? In that case, would it be good to influence children to learn and believe it?

That is, do you think it is morally right or good to impose some religion as truth to children? Is it not a better way perhaps to try and be honest and say, this is what I believe in, but it's okay to think otherwise? If it's possible at all. To try and present knowledge most objectively, in a non-biased way?

Not indoctrination, but rather informing about all versions of explaining life, people, the world - allowing the possibility to chose what to believe in?

That is, giving them a complete freedom in choosing their believes and life path. No imposing. No indoctrination. Objective, balanced, wise, unprejudiced teaching. In complete honesty, openness, fullness of knowledge.

What do you think? Impossible task for a believer?

You say, upbringing should be motivated by love not hate or fear. True.

But what is TRUE love?

 

[ViaCrucis]

While I agree with the general notion that the Holy Spirit is supposed to play some role in the propagation of the Christian tradition as a handful of the things the writers of the New Testament suggests, I would also say that they don't discount that a portion of the role of the Holy Spirit is to be dispensed through the various gifts and agencies of the Church.

Hence, Christian parents, like Jewish parents of old, are a part of God's collective people, and are therefore charged with delivering some portion of God's "info" to the children.

Precisely. The historic understanding of the Christian Church is that the Holy Spirit works through the agency, gifts, and ministry of the Church--which is the occasion of preaching and the Sacraments. These are the ordinary means of grace which we say have been revealed and instituted.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bible Highlighter]

WOW. Just wow.

After many days at christianforums.com, finally one post from a Christian that actually makes sense! Your students and church people must be very lucky.

Your reply is honest and shows understanding of yhe simple message of Jesus. Amazing! Why is it so rare to see in churches and in faith?

May I ask you a hard question. Can you even for a second imagine that the Bible is wrong? Not in its entirety, obviously, but in some of its important teachings? In that case, would it be good to influence children to learn and believe it?

That is, do you think it is morally right or good to impose something as truth to children? Is it not a better way perhaps to try and be honest and say, this is what I believe in, but it's okay to think otherwise? If it's possible at all. To try and present knowledge most objectively, in a non-biased way?

Not indoctrination, but rather informing about all versions of explaining life, people, the world - allowing the possibility to chose what to believe in?

That is, giving them a complete freedom in choosing their believes and life path. No imposing. No indoctrination. Objective, balanced, wise, unprejudiced teaching. In complete honesty, openness, fullness of knowledge.

What do you think? Impossible task for a believer?

You say, upbringing should be motivated by love not hate or fear. True.

But what is TRUE love?

But would you teach your child that rain is not wet?
Or that the sky is not blue?
The Bible is true. So teaching a child about the Bible is not wrong. Sure, they are free to not believe. Nobody can force their child to believe. It still comes down to the child having faith; And a child will have to grow up and determine the truth of God's Word for themselves as they are an adult, too.


...

 

[rjs330]

WOW. Just wow.

After many days at christianforums.com, finally one post from a Christian that actually makes sense! Your students and church people must be very lucky.

Your reply is honest and shows understanding of yhe simple message of Jesus. Amazing! Why is it so rare to see in churches and in faith?

May I ask you a hard question. Can you even for a second imagine that the Bible is wrong? Not in its entirety, obviously, but in some of its important teachings? In that case, would it be good to influence children to learn and believe it?

That is, do you think it is morally right or good to impose something as truth to children? Is it not a better way perhaps to try and be honest and say, this is what I believe in, but it's okay to think otherwise? If it's possible at all. To try and present knowledge most objectively, in a non-biased way?

Not indoctrination, but rather informing about all versions of explaining life, people, the world - allowing the possibility to chose what to believe in?

That is, giving them a complete freedom in choosing their believes and life path. No imposing. No indoctrination. Objective, balanced, wise, unprejudiced teaching. In complete honesty, openness, fullness of knowledge.

What do you think? Impossible task for a believer?

You say, upbringing should be motivated by love not hate or fear. True.

But what is TRUE love?

Absolutely not. The reason is the child's eternal soul is at stake. It would be foolish to teach a child that it's just fine to believe whatever you want. Because believing in Jesus is the only way to gain eternal life in heaven. If I really believe that then what kind of parent would I,be if I said it's fine to believe what you want.

If you as a parent believed that your child needed to walk on the sidewalk so they don't get run over by a car so you tell them that's what you believe but other people believe differently and they say it's ok to walk on the road so go ahead and choose what you want? Or would you not even want to teach,them that cause if you do you know your child will get run over?

We believe that your soul IS at stake. Jesus said don't fear those who can kill the body but fear the one that can destroy your soul in hell. We really have no real faith or belief if we think it's fine to teach kids other options and believe they are just as viable as what I believe.