Why is Hell permanent?

[Timothew]

The wicked do perish. But is God's hand too short that He cannot correct them and reconcile them to Himself?

No, but we can agree that God doesn't torture people in hell forever and ever without end. There are too many people here with a bad opinion of God for those of us who believe He doesn't torture forever to be disagreeing. When they accept that God is not evil, then we can debate the other two positions.

 

[Sadalmelik]

I just said that I don't think it will change. See evangelicals are always evangelizing and growing. They are the largest christian group. So it won't change. Unless all the annihilationists start an outreach program.

my theory, if it's new it's not true, if it's true it's not new. The church through the ages has held to this theory so it's pretty good evidence that it's the truth. God wouldn't mess up.

why do you continue to ignore the fact that the current orthodox version of hell was not even established by the church as orthodox untill the early part of the 6th century, it has not always been the predominant belief.

i believe the group of people closest to the time of Jesus and the early church, before it became corrupted with pagan and other influences, had more clearer insight into this.

yes the hellfire crowd eventually won out, im not disputing that. but dont pretend like anything other than the current orthodox version of hell, has always been the one and only, predominant view of hell. it has not always been. and the ideas of annihilationism, and universalism have been around as long, if not longer than eternal hellfire notion....

so while these ideas may be new to you, they are not new, by any stretch. your being misleading with the way you present things.


and btw, God hasnt messed up, man has, as usual.

 

[he-man]

Merely quoting Scripture means nothing. You have to know what it means. Jesus said that the wicked exerience "aionios kolasis"... "eternal CORRECTION". The word "kolasis" is rooted in "kolazo", meaning to prune. To make a planet GROW BETTER.

No, not correction, prune is κλαδεύω to cut, chop off; trim tree branches (or shrubs, etc.); reduce, lessen; remove, take away, rid
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]κολασις is from [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2849 κολάζω κολαζομενους mince, cut up οr shred, penal infliction[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G 2851 κολασις κολασμός penalize, fine [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]So, Please remove your veil![/FONT][/FONT]

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, (4) whose minds the God of this world has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God, should shine on them.

LEST they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, Matthew 13:14,15; ; Mark 4:12; ; John 12:40; and particularly Romans 11:8-10: God HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT of SLUMBER, EYES that they SHOULD not SEE…

4 that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost.

2 Cor 4:4 But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients. (Wakefield, Adam Clarke Commentary)

 

[Jonathan95]

So why would you have any problem with us not believing that God tortures people forever in hell? The bible says that the wicked perish. God is true to his word and not a liar.

That does not disprove torment and eternal hell. The bible doesn't contradict itself. Jesus spoke of everlasting fire. The rich man was in agony in fire (story of Lazarus).

 

[Soulgazer]

Yeah, the bible says a lot of things. MK: . [SIZE=-1]16:17[/SIZE]And these signs shall accompany them that believe <> if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them.

Now I don't know any believer that has ever consumed an ounce of cyanide and survived. It's been attempted many times. I don't want to see anyone get hurt, so don't try this at home! (Or in Jonestown)

Some things just have to be taken allegorically.

 

[Noxot]

Yeah, the bible says a lot of things. MK: . [SIZE=-1]16:17[/SIZE]And these signs shall accompany them that believe <> if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them.

Now I don't know any believer that has ever consumed an ounce of cyanide and survived. It's been attempted many times. I don't want to see anyone get hurt, so don't try this at home! (Or in Jonestown)

Some things just have to be taken allegorically.

funny ( or not so ) , just like when a bear killed some children for calling a dude bald.

 

[dollarsbill]

Okay, so you are saying it is because of what the bible says and not because most people believe in eternal torment. So even if everyone else didn't believe in eternal torment, you would be the Lone Ranger and believe because of what the bible says.

Now you know how we feel. Even if everyone else believed in eternal torment in hell, since the bible says that those who reject Christ will perish, that's also what I believe.

That would make God VERY unjust to give all sinners the exact same punishment. How about Satan? Same punishment also?

 

[dollarsbill]

In the early church, eternal torment was the minority view. ET was the new view then.

You offer no proof.

 

[Soulgazer]

funny ( or not so ) , just like when a bear killed some children for calling a dude bald.

Yeah, it's always funny till someone pokes an eye out.


There are signs all over the Bible telling people not to take itself literally.

 

[Jonathan95]

The wicked do perish. But is God's hand too short that He cannot correct them and reconcile them to Himself?

Yeah, the bible says a lot of things. MK: . [SIZE=-1]16:17[/SIZE]And these signs shall accompany them that believe <> if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them.

Now I don't know any believer that has ever consumed an ounce of cyanide and survived. It's been attempted many times. I don't want to see anyone get hurt, so don't try this at home! (Or in Jonestown)

Some things just have to be taken allegorically.

Attempted? Well we aren't to tempt Jesus (1 Cor 10:9). We can't be like "Oh, it says if we drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt us, lets drink cyanide to try this out".

The promise Jesus gave is valid, unless you want to believe God is a liar, which is not possible since it's against his nature. Lester Sumrall was fine as a missionary in Africa, he probably got a lot of poison into him.

 

[Jonathan95]

Yeah, it's always funny till someone pokes an eye out.


There are signs all over the Bible telling people not to take itself literally.

Wasn't it literal when they called Elisha bald, and the two bears tare them?

 

[Soulgazer]

Wasn't it literal when they called Elisha bald, and the two bears tare them?

No. Jesus is the perfect image of God, little children climbed all over Him, probably making fun of His beard, because that's what little children do.

No man can know the Father except through the Son.



Not drinking cyanide is a wise idea. It will kill you. Despite what is written.

 

[Jonathan95]

No. Jesus is the perfect image of God, little children climbed all over Him, probably making fun of His beard, because that's what little children do.

No man can know the Father except through the Son.

Not drinking cyanide is a wise idea. It will kill you. Despite what is written.

Where's the faith? It will not kill us if we ingest it involuntarily. Since I don't believe Jesus meant that it means we should go on drinking poison for the sake of it. But you can believe God is a liar, if you want, but he's not.

Not sure what you are talking about.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Don't you believe Jesus is God (1 John 5:20, John 1:1, Phil 2:6) nor the image of the invisible God as Paul says in Col 1:15 by the inspiration of God The Holy Spirit?

 

[Soulgazer]

Where's the faith? It will not kill us if we ingest it involuntarily. Since I don't believe Jesus meant that it means we should go on drinking poison for the sake of it. But you can believe God is a liar, if you want, but he's not.

Not sure what you are talking about.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Don't you believe Jesus is God (1 John 5:20, John 1:1, Phil 2:6) nor the image of the invisible God as Paul says in Col 1:15 by the inspiration of God The Holy Spirit?

I believe that Jesus is the image of God. I also believe that no man can know the father except through Jesus. I believe that all that came before Him are as thieves and Liars. I believe that even to this day, reading Moses will drop a veil over one's face.

I know that drinking an ounce of cyanide will kill you, voluntarily or involuntarily(not everyone in Jonestown knew what they were drinking.)

Jesus knew that Jumping off a high tower was nuts. Gravity----it's a law.

 

[Jonathan95]

I believe that Jesus is the image of God. I also believe that no man can know the father except through Jesus. I believe that all that came before Him are as thieves and Liars. I believe that even to this day, reading Moses will drop a veil over one's face.

I know that drinking an ounce of cyanide will kill you, voluntarily or involuntarily(not everyone in Jonestown knew what they were drinking.)

Jesus knew that Jumping off a high tower was nuts. Gravity----it's a law.

So you believe Jesus was lying when he said that if we drink any deadly thing it shall not kill us?

 

[Soulgazer]

So you believe Jesus was lying when he said that if we drink any deadly thing it shall not kill us?

No. I believe the author who finished Mark was over zealous. But I am not going to drink an ounce of cyanide, and neither will you, because we both know that it will kill us.

 

[Jonathan95]

No. I believe the author who finished Mark was over zealous.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Soulgazer]

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You don't believe that. Otherwise like first and second century Christians you would be trying to decipher the meaning of "the Odyssey", or pondering the Parables of "Enoch". You will not drink cyanide, because you know it will kill you. The Divinity of reason will prevail.

 

[Noxot]

So you believe Jesus was lying when he said that if we drink any deadly thing it shall not kill us?

seriously what is more important, the physical reality or the spiritual reality and the reality of the soul? obviously jesus was talking about false doctrines and tricks of evil spirits and ectect. for it is better to die physically if your spirit is right and good with Christ but for that kind of man to drink poison and die, drinking error and malice and hypocrisy, that kind of poison can kill the spiritual man if he does not Hold fast the head, who is Christ.

and the soul is wounded by all kinds of deadly poisons when it believes in such things as thinking that you can just drink a cup of cyanide and faith in Christ will save your flesh with the base assumptions your soul made. but nevertheless Christ is healing us all the time.

another hurtful poison, a most wicked one, is reading the laws of moses according to the fleshly understanding, it can fill you full of religious hypocrisy poison if not careful and that wicked poison in the heart of the anamalistic man will read moses and think he needs to be chunking stones at people for the same exact sins that he did commit too.

what about the deadly poison that we forced jesus to drink? how much poison did he have to endure all his life before we killed him? but not one bit of it did him any harm. and how much poision do we put in with our prayers to God? and how much poison are angelic beings forced to eat by seeing our wicked conduct? and yet those angels give us mana from heaven in return for the evils we destroy others and ourselves with. how much more will our Father not give us a serpent when we ask a fish??

 

[Soulgazer]

seriously what is more important, the physical reality or the spiritual reality and the reality of the soul? obviously jesus was talking about false doctrines and tricks of evil spirits and ectect.

I agree. I think it is about spiritual reality also; The god of this world rules matter, the True God is transcendent. Stories of flying wizards, talking animals, floods, ending of matter, are all entertaining. They make great tv.