Why is Hell permanent?

[createdtoworship]

No. I believe the author who finished Mark was over zealous. But I am not going to drink an ounce of cyanide, and neither will you, because we both know that it will kill us.

interesting that Irenaeus quoted the long ending of mark in his apologetics writtings....

""So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." ''Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: so then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God." (Against Heresies III:10:6)."

Mark 16:19
Irenaeus (130-202)

 

[createdtoworship]

why do you continue to ignore the fact that the current orthodox version of hell was not even established by the church as orthodox untill the early part of the 6th century, it has not always been the predominant belief.

wow, where do you get your statistics. early church quoted extensively on hell fire and eternal flames.

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery.

(from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
Tatian was an early Assyrian believer who moved to Rome as a pagan and eventually became a Christian. Interestingly, he read the Jewish Scriptures and from these became convinced that other pagan ideas about the world were simply false. He was a student of Justin Martyr and wrote about the unreasonableness of paganism and the truth of Christianity:

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:

...Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send 'spiritual wickednesses,' and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:

These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshipers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged--the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. ("Apology" 48:12)

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Hippolytus was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church, and he was often at theological odds with the early Popes and church leaders of his time. He appears to have been a student of Irenaeus, and wrote MANY volumes of history, apologetics and Biblical teaching:


Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)


From Felix Minucius (226AD)
Felix Marcus Minucius is perhaps the earliest known Latin apologist for the Christian faith. He wrote “Octavius”, a dialogue on Christianity between a non-believer named Caecilius Natalis and a Christian named Octavius Januarius (who was a lawyer, friend and student of Minucius Felix:


I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment... Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)


From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus was bishop at Carthage. He had an excellent Greek education and wrote several key letters and treatises in which he discussed doctrines of the Church:


An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)



Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! ("To Thibaris" 55:10)


From Lactantius (307AD)
Lucius Caelius Firmianus Lactantius was a Latin speaking native of North Africa. He was an expert in rhetoric and he taught the subject in the city of Nicomedia at the request of Emperor Diocletian. He also wrote several apologetic and doctrinal works:


But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire...The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment ...Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)


From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
Cyril was a well respected theologian of the early Church and a bishop of the church at Jerusalem. He wrote twenty three teaching lectures on the doctrines of the Church and delivered these lectures while he was a presbyter in Jerusalem:


We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)

 

[Soulgazer]

interesting that Irenaeus quoted the long ending of mark in his apologetics writtings....

""So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." ''Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: so then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God." (Against Heresies III:10:6)."

Mark 16:19
Irenaeus (130-202)

It is. It means the ending had to be added before circa 160.

 

[createdtoworship]

It is. It means the ending had to be added before circa 160.

nope, too close to the original Apostles. It would get too much resistance.

 

[Sadalmelik]

wow, where do you get your statistics. early church quoted extensively on hell fire and eternal flames.

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:


(from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:



From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:





From Tatian (160AD)
Tatian was an early Assyrian believer who moved to Rome as a pagan and eventually became a Christian. Interestingly, he read the Jewish Scriptures and from these became convinced that other pagan ideas about the world were simply false. He was a student of Justin Martyr and wrote about the unreasonableness of paganism and the truth of Christianity:





From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:





From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:




From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:








From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:









From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Hippolytus was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church, and he was often at theological odds with the early Popes and church leaders of his time. He appears to have been a student of Irenaeus, and wrote MANY volumes of history, apologetics and Biblical teaching:


Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)


From Felix Minucius (226AD)
Felix Marcus Minucius is perhaps the earliest known Latin apologist for the Christian faith. He wrote “Octavius”, a dialogue on Christianity between a non-believer named Caecilius Natalis and a Christian named Octavius Januarius (who was a lawyer, friend and student of Minucius Felix:


I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment... Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)


From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus was bishop at Carthage. He had an excellent Greek education and wrote several key letters and treatises in which he discussed doctrines of the Church:


An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)



Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! ("To Thibaris" 55:10)


From Lactantius (307AD)
Lucius Caelius Firmianus Lactantius was a Latin speaking native of North Africa. He was an expert in rhetoric and he taught the subject in the city of Nicomedia at the request of Emperor Diocletian. He also wrote several apologetic and doctrinal works:


But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire...The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment ...Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)


From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
Cyril was a well respected theologian of the early Church and a bishop of the church at Jerusalem. He wrote twenty three teaching lectures on the doctrines of the Church and delivered these lectures while he was a presbyter in Jerusalem:


We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)

iknow, because ive read it, that i could copy and paste just as much w/opposite view, you read and see what you want to see and hear, that is why you found all this. i can give just as much refuting, with early church supporting universalism ideas. so please. further, you can never get around the fact of paul, now can you? or do you have verses of paul preaching about eternal hellfire i dont know about? btw, that would be about the earliest source, which preceeded any of this 'proof' you offer.although i wont bother posting it, cause all youll do is ignore it, so why bother. im not going to waste my time.

 

[Sadalmelik]

i maintain, that the mainstream thought concerning salvation, hell, was universalism amongst the gentiles. you can refute it all you want, doesnt prove anything. you werent there, so you dont know. i could even give you thoughts from augustine that show even he didnt believe in the notion of eternal hellfire.....wholeheartedly anyway. sure he preached it, but secretly he wasnt comfortable with the idea, and like i said, there are quotes from him that show this, and confirm that he didnt really believe it.

amongst others, the list goes on and on. like i said, im not going to waste my time trying to persuade of convince you of anything....as obviously your not interested in learning anything, only trying to prove the other side 'wrong'. good day.

 

[createdtoworship]

iknow, because ive read it, that i could copy and paste just as much w/opposite view, you read and see what you want to see and hear, that is why you found all this. i can give just as much refuting, with early church supporting universalism ideas. so please. further, you can never get around the fact of paul, now can you? or do you have verses of paul preaching about eternal hellfire i dont know about? btw, that would be about the earliest source, which preceeded any of this 'proof' you offer.although i wont bother posting it, cause all youll do is ignore it, so why bother. im not going to waste my time.

actually I never seen any quotes for universalism before the 19th century. So please find some.

 

[Sadalmelik]

actually I never seen any quotes for universalism before the 19th century. So please find some.

like ive said, ive already read them, so i know they are out there, google it. further, im not willing to do the research for you, untill you come up with verses from paul for me preaching of eternal hellfire.

this would preceed all of the quotes you gave. do you not believe that we should look to the earliest source, one who heard Jesus's teaching first hand, do you not consider that more reliable than what youve quoted?

ill be waiting for this plethora of verses/quotes from paul, considering who he was concerning the beginning of the church, and considering how important a subject that hell is, id think there would be a mountain of evidence.....when you quote for me the verses im asking for, i will consider changing my pov regarding eternal hell not existing.

 

[dollarsbill]

If our English Bibles are so horribly translated about Hell, how can anyone believe anything else they say? The fact is that they are amazingly consistent. Hell is real and eternal.

Matthew 5:29-30 (NASB)
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

And HORRIBLE!

 

[Phantasman]

If our English Bibles are so horribly translated about Hell, how can anyone believe anything else they say? The fact is that they are amazingly consistent. Hell is real and eternal.

Matthew 5:29-30 (NASB)
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

And HORRIBLE!

Literal? He was speaking in parable showing importance. He did not mean to literally cut off your hand.

 

[dollarsbill]

Literal? He was speaking in parable showing importance. He did not mean to literally cut off your hand.

True. He was saying it would be BETTER than going to Hell, thus showing the AWFULNESS of Hell.

 

[createdtoworship]

like ive said, ive already read them, so i know they are out there, google it. further, im not willing to do the research for you, untill you come up with verses from paul for me preaching of eternal hellfire.

this would preceed all of the quotes you gave. do you not believe that we should look to the earliest source, one who heard Jesus's teaching first hand, do you not consider that more reliable than what youve quoted?

ill be waiting for this plethora of verses/quotes from paul, considering who he was concerning the beginning of the church, and considering how important a subject that hell is, id think there would be a mountain of evidence.....when you quote for me the verses im asking for, i will consider changing my pov regarding eternal hell not existing.

Well I couldn't find any, in fact I emailed Tentmaker.org just to verify that they do not exist. I await His reply. (since you were unable to answer it either, or you would have).

 

[Sadalmelik]

Well I couldn't find any, in fact I emailed Tentmaker.org just to verify that they do not exist. I await His reply. (since you were unable to answer it either, or you would have).

no verses from paul? thought so.

 

[Sadalmelik]

who was more intimate with the thoughts of Jesus? what? whos that? the 'authoritarians' you quoted or paul? still waiting for that answer also, apparently you think those who came after paul are more trustworthy sources, as you havent stated otherwise. ill go with what paul said.....which was NOTHING on this 'most important subject' of eternal hellfire. where one is supposedly going to spend all of eternity if they are not saved, and how many times was it mentioned, 1,000, no, 100, no, 10, no, 1 not! real convincing.

 

[createdtoworship]

no verses from paul? thought so.

Changing the bars are we? Point noted. So now that you have sufficiently admitted that you do not have anti nicene or nicene support for your theories of annihilation we will now move on to new testament support for eternal hell.

 

[Sadalmelik]

just doing what you have repeatedly done throughout this post, you havent once refuted anything logically, without redirecting the conversation, still waiting for the verses from paul also.

 

[Sadalmelik]

( context from thebeautifulheresy.com)

The Early Church



OK. Perhaps you're new to Universalism and you think you've stumbled across some new age, new-fangled heresy. Would it surprise you to know that Universalism was present in the early church and that people like Origen and Clement gleaned it from the scriptures? Would it surprise you that Eternal Torment (ET) wasn't commonly accepted until around the year 500?

Here are some tidbits from a very long book (about 200 pages- available online). These might might whet your appetite to learn a little more.

The doctrine of Eternal Torment is nowhere to be found in ancient Judaism. Somewhere after the close of the Old Testament and Jesus' time, this error began creeping in from the surrounding paganism. The early church was not focused on eternal destiny but rather on apologetics. However, the early church Fathers were largely Universalists. This belief came from the scripture, as it was no where to be found in the surrounding Paganism.

The church fathers closest to the beginning of Christianity and who were well versed in Greek (the language of the New Testament) largely did not believe in endless, torment for the sake of retribution. They believed in limited, corrective punishment based on their understanding of several key Greek words that have been mistranslated. Augustine, the first church father to really promote ET to the exlusion of other beliefs, hated Greek and studied mostly in Latin. When the power of the church shifted from the Greek fathers (Alexandrian) to the Latin, the teachings became largely corrupted.

Prior to 200 AD, there were three schools of thought, within Christianity, concerning human destiny- endless punishment, annihilation (the wicked would simply be wiped out no longer to exist) and universal salvation. But prior to this there was not much, if any controversy over these opinions. Origen, who was the first to really systematize Christianity was a universalist. Even though he was later said to have committed many errors for which he was condemned, Universalism was never among them. Universalism wasn't really attacked and ET didn't come into "favor" until around 540 AD, the beginning of the Middle Ages. Some of the most revered early church fathers were staunch universalists, who gained this understanding from scripture.

Here are the Cliff's notes:

1. During the First Century the primitive Christians did not dwell on matters of eschatology, but devoted their attention to apologetics; they were chiefly anxious to establish the fact of Christ's advent, and of its blessings to the world. Possibly the question of destiny was an open one, till Paganism and Judaism introduced erroneous ideas, when the New Testament doctrine of the apokatastasis was asserted, and universal restoration became an accepted belief, as stated later by Clement and Origen, A.D. 180-230.
2. The Catacombs give us the views of the unlearned, as Clement and Origen state the doctrine of scholars and teachers. Not a syllable is found hinting at the horrors of Augustinianism, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers.
3. Clement declares that all punishment, however severe, is purificatory; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative. Origen explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all the other ancient Universalists, declare that "everlasting" (aionion) punishment, is consonant with universal salvation. So that it is no proof that other primitive Christians who are less explicit as to the final result, taught endless punishment when they employ the same terms.
4. Like our Lord and his Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but they, the early Christians, called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, discipline, chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration.
5. The early Christians taught that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead, and for that purpose descended into Hades. Many held that he released all who were in ward. This shows that repentance beyond the grave, perpetual probation, was then accepted, which precludes the modern error that the soul's destiny is decided at death.
6. Prayers for the dead were universal in the early church, which would be absurd, if their condition is unalterably fixed at the grave.
7. The idea that false threats were necessary to keep the common people in check, and that the truth might be held esoterically, prevailed among the earlier Christians, so that there can be no doubt that many who seem to teach endless punishment, really held the broader views, as we know the most did, and preached terrors pedagogically.
8. The first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets.
9. The first complete presentation of Christianity as a system was by Origen (A.D. 220) and universal salvation was explicitly contained in it.
10. Universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine in Christendom as long as Greek, the language of the New Testament, was the language of Christendom.
11. Universalism was generally believed in the best centuries, the first three, when Christians were most remarkable for simplicity, goodness and missionary zeal.
12. Universalism was least known when Greek, the language of the New Testament was least known, and when Latin was the language of the Church in its darkest, most ignorant, and corrupt ages.
13. Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not by a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers.
14. Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment.
15. With the exception of the arguments of Augustine (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
16. While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no oecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints.
17. As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
18. The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints.
19. The most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment were heathen born, and led corrupt lives in their youth. Tertullian one of the first, and Augustine, the greatest of them, confess to having been among the vilest.
20. The first advocates of endless punishment, Minucius Felix, Tertullian and Augustine, were Latins, ignorant of Greek, and less competent to interpret the meaning of Greek Scriptures than were the Greek scholars.
21. The first advocates of Universalism, after the Apostles, were Greeks, in whose mother-tongue the New Testament was written. They found their Universalism in the Greek Bible. Who should be correct, they or the Latins?
22. The Greek Fathers announced the great truth of universal restoration in an age of darkness, sin and corruption. There was nothing to suggest it to them in the world's literature or religion. It was wholly contrary to everything around them. Where else could they have found it, but where they say they did, in the Gospel?
23. All ecclesiastical historians and the best Biblical critics and scholars agree to the prevalence of Universalism in the earlier centuries.
24. From the days of Clement of Alexandria to those of Gregory of Nyssa and Theodore of Mopsuestia (A.D. 180-428), the great theologians and teachers, almost without exception, were Universalists. No equal number in the same centuries were comparable to them for learning and goodness.
25. The first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years.
26. In all Christendom, from A.D. 170 to 430, there were six Christian schools. Of these four, the only strictly theological schools, taught Universalism, and but one endless punishment.
27. The three earliest Gnostic sects, the Basilidians, the Carpocratians and the Valentinians (A.D. 117-132) are condemned by Christian writers, and their heresies pointed out, but though they taught Universalism, that doctrine is never condemned by those who oppose them. Irenaeus condemned the errors of the Carpocratians, but does not reprehend their Universalism, though he ascribes the doctrine to them.
28. The first defense of Christianity against Infidelity (Origen against Celsus) puts the defense on Universalistic grounds. Celsus charged the Christians' God with cruelty, because he punished with fire. Origen replied that God's fire is curative; that he is a "Consuming Fire," because he consumes sin and not the sinner.
29. Origen, the chief representative of Universalism in the ancient centuries, was bitterly opposed and condemned for various heresies by ignorant and cruel fanatics. He was accused of opposing Episcopacy, believing in pre-existence, etc., but never was condemned for his Universalism. The very council that anathematized "Origenism" eulogized Gregory of Nyssa, who was explicitly a Universalist as was Origen. Lists of his errors are given by Methodius, Pamphilus and Eusebius, Marcellus, Eustathius and Jerome, but Universalism is not named by one of his opponents. Fancy a list of Ballou's errors and his Universalism omitted; Hippolytus (A.D. 320) names thirty-two known heresies, but Universalism is not mentioned as among them. Epiphanius, "the hammer of heretics," describes eighty heresies, but he does not mention universal salvation, though Gregory of Nyssa, an outspoken Universalist, was, at the time he wrote, the most conspicuous figure in Christendom.
30. Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries. He closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it. Lecky says the age of Justinian was "the worst form civilization has assumed."
31. The first clear and definite statement of human destiny by any Christian writer after the days of the Apostles, includes universal restoration, and that doctrine was advocated by most of the greatest and best of the Christian Fathers for the first five hundred years of the Christian

there are thousands of sites stating universalism was the predominant view of early christians....you can deny it all you want, and try to make it sound like it was just invented in the last couple hundred years, there are many who disagree with you, including me.

 

[he-man]

nope, too close to the original Apostles. It would get too much resistance.

For the omission of the whole paragraph containing the last twelve verses of the second Gospel we have indeed no other direct manuscript evidence than theirs, [Codd. X and B] and even the scribe of Cod. B betrays a certain consciousness of an omission by leaving blank the column immediately following the end of St. Mark, this being the only perfectly vacant column throughout the whole volume.

Cod. X presents no such peculiarity; but Cod. L (Paris 62, of the eighth century) exhibits the passage in such a shape as plainly shows that its writer regarded vv. 9-20 as of very questionable authenticity. About thirty of the later or cursive manuscripts, though they contain the whole passage, either mark it with an asterisk, or append scholia which throw more or less doubt upon it, as an integral part of the Gospel.

In fact, after having been cited as genuine by the Fathers of the second and third centuries, from Irenaeus downwards, the difficulty of harmonizing their narrative with the other Gospels (a circumstance which ought to plead in their favor) brought suspicion upon these verses, and caused their omission in some copies seen by Eusebius (Quaternions ad Xarinum), whose influence over the Scripture codices of his age we have seen to be very considerable.

FULL COLLATION
OF THE CODEX SINAITICUS
WITH THE RECEIVED TEXT OF
THE NEW TESTAMENT:​

TO WHICH IS PREFIX-ED A CRITICAL INTRODUCTION
BY​

FREDERICK H. SCRIVENER, M.A.

 

[createdtoworship]

just doing what you have repeatedly done throughout this post, you havent once refuted anything logically, without redirecting the conversation, still waiting for the verses from paul also.

So bars have been changed, no problem.

so you don't want Jesus' words on Hell? What kind of theology is that (only wanting to debate pauls writtings)????

Paul doesn't use the word Hell, but Paul also doesn't use the word trinity, or Rapture or theocratic kingdom, or many other things.


but paul does say this...


9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Schwandt, John ; Collins, C. John: The ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament. Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2006; 2006, S. 2 Th 1:9

 

[Sadalmelik]

So bars have been changed, no problem.

so you don't want Jesus' words on Hell? What kind of theology is that (only wanting to debate pauls writtings)????

Paul doesn't use the word Hell, but Paul also doesn't use the word trinity, or Rapture or theocratic kingdom, or many other things.


but paul does say this...


9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Schwandt, John ; Collins, C. John: The ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament. Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2006; 2006, S. 2 Th 1:9

one quote, which by the way, says destruction, not eternal torment in a fiery hell without end. doesnt say that, it says destruction. it would be eternal, because something that is destroyed is destroyed eternally, not hard to understand.its consistent with all other scripture regarding the fate of the wicked., btw, one verse......for something so important, paul indirectly, mind you, mentions it once. gotcha, anything else?


you can bring up Jesuss teachings on hell and i will debate them with you one by one, ive no problem with that.....but since im giving some, shouldnt you? so answer me, why is it, one of Jesus's most trusted persons, sent out to teach the gentiles, a mission of the utmost importance, and given by God Himself, and not one direct mention of hell? such an important man, and important subject, why no mention of it? if this is so logical to you, please enlighten me as to the reason, so i can put the issue at rest with myself....and please just dont answer.....i dont know.

once you answer this simple question, i will be happy to answer your verses concerning Jesus's view on 'hell'