Why is Hell permanent?

[Stealth001]

Why isn't that so many profess that Jesus came to save the world... but insist that He couldn't have been 100% successful???

If God desires that all men be saved... God gets what He desires. Even if they have to pass through the flames. Hell serves a purpose beyond never ending torture. (Roman Catholic scare tactic)

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

​

The reason it will not be 100% is God gave us free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Revelation 2:11
He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Free will? Yes. But what loving Father gives a child free will, knowing they will fail, and then locks them in a burning oven forever if they do?

God doesn't love... God IS love. Therefore, even Hell must be an expression of His nature... an expression of love.

Christian Universalism teaches a God of just retribution. A God who will fearsomely purify the wicked in the flames of Hell. In Universalism Hell isn't a never ending torture chamber for a cantakerous God. In Universalism Hell is God's refining fire. Be saved and be spared the eternal punishment (kolasis) of fire and brimstone. Be saved from the fires of torment and agonies that will burn away every last bastion of rebellion, sin, and self. Be saved from the fire that reveals the utter ruin and loss of all that one's life was intended to be. Horrors, agonies, burnings, and darkness. And yet it is this very fire and brimstone that brings every last soul to it's knees professing, "Jesus, thou hast won. I surrender!" The sinner is loved. And though they refuse and reject Christ, they must accept the fact that one day they will accept Him. One day they will cry out for His tender mercies. One day they will surrender sin and self to Christ... even if it be from the very flames of God's refining fire. Resistence is futile. Why wait until then? Why waste your life? Why endure age abiding torments that will serve to bring you to your knees professing that Jesus is Lord? Why not simply accept Him today?

Philippians 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

​

 

[x141]

This is an interesting scripture ...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Considering Jesus came to both show us the way and be the way; and that way, a pouring out your soul unto to death.

 

[Stealth001]

This is an interesting scripture ...

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Considering Jesus came to both show us the way and be the way; and that way, a pouring out your soul unto to death.

Deut 30:19 was issued to Israel. They could choose to obey God.... or suffer cursing and death as a nation. Notce, they were admonished to choose obedience that God might bless their nation so that their children might live.

 

[he-man]

Well, according to scripture it was to 'force every one into a common SUBJECTION to sin' AGAINST their supposed FREE will. ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Now who do you think does this ORDAINING, so that you CAN believe? My vote is GOD ordains.

prescribed agreed upon
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were agreed upon, to eternal life believed

τεταγμενοι τεταγμένῳ ordain, prescribe, “τ. τὰ περὶ τὰ τέκνα” Arist.Pol.1262b6: abs., ὁ νόμος οὕτω τ. Pl.La.199a; “οὕτω τ. ὁ λόγος” Arist.EN1119b17:—Pass., “τὸ ταττόμενον” Ar.Ec.766; “τὸ ταχθὲν τελεῖν” S.Aj.528; “τὰ τεταγμένα” X.Cyr.1.2.5, etc.; τὰ τετ. ἄγειν the things appointed to them for conveying, ib.8.5.4; “τῆς τροφῆς ἡ βελτίστη τέτακται τοῖς ἐλευθέροις” Arist.GA744b18; ἐν τῷ τεταγμένῳ εἶναι to be fulfilling one's obligations, IG12.57.47, 22.116.48, X. Cyr.6.2.37. χρήματα ταξάμενοι κατὰ χρόνους ἀποδοῦναι agreeing to pay by instalments, ib.117, cf. 3.70

Med., generally, agree upon, settle, “ταξαμένους . . δέχεσθαι μισθὸν τῆς φυλακῆς” Pl.R.416e; “τὰς τιμάς” Id.Lg.743e, cf. 844b, 844c, al.; “τέταγμαι ποιμέσιν, οἵ μοι δώσουσιν τιμήν” PMich.Zen.56.19 (iii B.C.); votum expld. as εὐχή, ὃ τάττεταί τις θεῷ, Gloss.: c. inf. fut., PEnteux.54.5(iii B.C.), Plb.18.7.7, al.
Act 13:48 ακουοντα δε τα εθνη εχαιρον και εδοξαζον τον λογον του κυριου και επιστευσαν οσοι ησαν τεταγμενοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw/DRAG him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)

ελκυση έλκω ελκύω attract draw; έλκω v. attract; ελκύω v. draw

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me he/she/it-should-ATTRACT, him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ελκυση draw to oneself, attract, of the magnet, E.Fr.567

draw after one, “ἐν δ᾽ ἔπεσ᾽ Ὠκεανῷ . . φάος ἠελίοιο, ἕλκον νύκτα μέλαιναν” Il.8.486
draw or derive from a source, “ἐντεῦθεν εἵλκυσεν ἐπὶ τὴν . . τέχνην τὸ πρός φορον αὐτῇ” Pl.Phdr.270a, cf. Jul.Or.7.207a
draw to oneself, scrape up, amass, τιμάς, ἄφενος ἕλκεσθαι, Thgn.30
be drawn or contracted, “εἱλκύσθη ἐπὶ τὰ δεξιὰ τράχηλος” Hp.Epid.4.14.
draw a sword, S.Ant.1233, E.Rh.576 (Pass.):—Med., “ἕλκετο δ᾽ ἐκ κολεοῖο . . ξίφος” Il.1.194.
of roots, draw up nourishment, Thphr.HP1.6.10
draw from a receptacle, “ἐξ ἑκάστου κιβωτίου πινάκιον ἕν” Arist.Ath.64.1.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon

Not if you study a little bit deeper and look at the definition of the word "called". 2822 kletos:invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

Wrong word, my bad, "Mat 22:14 For many are invited, but few chosen
So how does it 'now' read?

And AFTER you have been set free by you might have a FREE choice/will too.JOH 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not kept fast again with the yoke of servitude.

 

[Hillsage]

he-man

I guess it boils down to 'pick your favorite lexicon' then. I guess that the truth be dammed and let everyone be ruled by the religious spirit of their choice.

 

[Stealth001]

This is like the rapture debate. Follow what you believe is true. God will sort it out in the end. Will not the creator and judge of the earth be just?

 

[he-man]

he-man

I guess it boils down to 'pick your favorite lexicon' then. I guess that the truth be dammed and let everyone be ruled by the religious spirit of their choice.

Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[dollarsbill]

well unfortunately for your pov, it totally contradicts it, because the same word(s) used to describe sodom and gomorrah burning forever, are the same one used to describe the eternal hell phallacy, and since sodom and gemorrah arent burning anymore, well anyone can do the math...dont add up. what i have stated in regards to this are facts, you can continue to say it is only my translation and my opinion.....but i know the definition of what a fact is, and therefore my statement(s) stand up fine, all by themselves.

so just to clarify my position

which are stated facts, not opinions or my own translations.

the same words used to describe sodom and gomorrah, and hundreds of other verses in the bible, are the same ones used to describe eternal hell.

sodom and gomorrah are not still burning, nor are the hundreds of other things still going on in the bible, which used the same words describing them, that are used to describe eternal hell....

therefore it is a logical conclusion to think that these word(s), used do not always mean an endless duration.

those statements are all facts.

so you can continue to insist they are only my translations and opinions, i think everyone can make up their own minds in regards to it.

The "eternal fire" is not referring to the physical burning of Sodom. It it referring to afterwards.

Jude 1:7 (NASB)
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[dollarsbill]

Aion (Greek New Testament) / Oham = Hebrew (Hebrew Old Testament) [most Bibles put "forever" or "everlasting"]:


Before the Hebrew Old Testament was translated into Greek (200-300 B.C., according to Prideaux, or during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus, 285-247 B. C., say other authorities) this word aionion was in common use by the Greeks. Homer, Hesiod, Aeschylus, Pindar, Sophocles, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Empedocles, Euripedes, Philoctetes, and Plato, all use the word, but never once does one of them give it the sense of eternity.

Aristotle: "The entire heaven is one and eternal (aidios) having neither beginning nor end of an entire aion." And still more to the purpose is this quotation concerning God's existence: "Life and 'an aion continuous and eternal, zoe kai aion sunekes kai aidios.'" Here the word aidios, (eternal) is employed to qualify aion and impart to it what it had not of itself, the sense of eternal. Aristotle could be guilty of no such language as "an eternal eternity." Had the word aion contained the idea of eternity in his time, or in his mind, he would not have added aidios.

Josephus and Philo, Jewish Greeks, who wrote between the Old and New Testaments, use the word aionion with the meaning of temporal duration, always.

Alluding to the Pharisees, Josephus says: "They believe that the wicked are detained in an everlasting prison (eirgmon aidion) subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria) and the Essenes (another, Jewish sect) "Allotted to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing punishment (timoria adialeipton) where they suffer a deathless punishment, (athanaton timorian)."
Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and always used aionion to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of Philo, says he never used aionion for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew 25:46, precisely as Christ used it. "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aionios) from such as are more powerful."



Here we have the exact terms employed by our word, to show that aionion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ.


You may point to Jude 6. "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Hanson wrote, "The word here rendered "everlasting" is not aionios, temporary duration, but aidios, whose intrinsic meaning is endless. It is found in one other place in the New Testament, Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."


Now it must be admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal, and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aionios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aionios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of aionian fire." That is to say, the "aidios chains" in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the "aionion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?



1) The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the former. The aidios chains are even as the aionion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five yours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" usually convey the sense of unlimited, they are here limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aionios, indefinitely long.



2) That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels...he hath reserved in everlasting chains unto the judgment of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, it might be claimed that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aionios and them expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, it follows that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.




But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment?"
And as for the attributes of God it is quite simple. God is before the ages, he created the ages, he himself wasn't created, he's the King of the Ages, he spoke the ages into being, he has no beginning, he has no end, he is the self-existent one, etc. Therefore "olam" and "aionion" when applied to God (and His kingdom) denote "infinity" or "eternality" because of the object in view.




There are too many scriptures to mention them all using the term "forever" or "everlasting." Here are just a few as examples:



"We see the word "everlasting" applied to God's covenant with the Jews; to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple. We see the word forever applied to the duration of a man's earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi's leprosy; to the duration of the life of David; to the duration of a king's life; to the duration of the earth; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the time they were to dwell in Jerusalem; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the time Jerusalem was to remain a city; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the laws and ordinances of Moses; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; to the time the righteous were to inhabit the earth; and to the time Jonah was in the fish's belly.


"We find the phrase forever and ever applied to the hosts of heaven, or the sun, moon, and stars; to a writing contained in a book; to the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea; and to the time the Jews were to dwell in Judea. We find the word never applied to the time the fire was to burn on the Jewish altar; to the time the sword was to remain in the house of David; to God's covenant with the Jews; to the time the Jews should not experience shame; to the time the house of David was to reign over Israel; to the time the Jews were not to open their mouths because of their shame; to the time those who fell by death should remain in their fallen state; and to the time judgment was not executed


"But the law covenant is abolished; the priesthood of Aaron and his sons has ceased; the ordinances, and laws, and statutes of Moses are abrogated; the Jews have long since been dispossessed of the land of Canaan, have been driven from Judea, and God has brought upon them a reproach and a shame; the man to the duration of whose life the word forever was applied is dead; David is dead, and has ceased to reign over Israel; the throne of Solomon no longer exists; the Jewish temple is demolished, and Jerusalem has been overthrown, so that there is not left "one stone upon another;" the servants of the Jews have been freed from their masters; Gehazi is dead, and no one believes he carried his leprosy with him into the future world; the stones that were set up at Jordan have been removed, and the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea has ceased to ascend; the righteous do not inherit the earth endlessly, and no one believes that the mountains and hills, as such, are indestructible; the fire that burnt on the Jewish altar has long since ceased to burn; judgment has been executed; and no Christian believes that those who fall by death will never be awakened from their slumbers


"Now, as these words are used in this limited sense in the Scriptures, why should it be supposed that they express endless duration when applied to punishment?" (Thomas B. Thayer - The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment). See Everlasting. - Gen. 17:7, 8, 13; 48:4; 49:26; Exod. 40:15; LeV 16:34; Numb. 25:13; Ps. 24:7; Hab. 3:6. Forever. - Deut. 15:17; 1 Sam. 1:22; 27:12; Lev 25:46; 2 Kings 5:27; Job 41:4; 1 Kings 1:31; Neh. 2:3; Dan. 2:4; Exod. 14:13; Eccl 1:4; Ps. 104:5; 78:69; Ezek. 37:25; Gen. 13:15; Exod. 32:13; Josh. 14:9; 1 Chron. 23:25; Jer. 17:25; Ps. 48:8; Jer. 31:40; 1 Kings 8:13; Numb. 10:8;18:23; 1 Chron. 28:4; 1 Kings 9:5; Josh. 4:7; Jonah 2:6; Ps. 37:29. Forever and ever. - Ps. 148:5, 6; Isa. 30:8; 34:10; Jer. 7:7; 25:5. Never. - LeV 6:13; 2 Sam. 12:10; Judges 2:1; Joel 2:26, 27; Jer. 33:17; Ezek. 16:63; Amos 8:14; Hab. 1:4.


Hanson wrote, "All these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things -- things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionion words are applied--have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning."


Now these words are applied to God and the soul's happiness. They are words that in the Bible are never applied to punishment or anything perishable. They would have been affixed to punishment had the Bible intended to teach endless punishment. And certainly they show the error of those who declare that the indefinite word aionion is all the word, or the strongest one in the Bible, declarative of the endlessness of life beyond the grave. (ecclesia.org)



so actually that wouldnt just be my opinion, there are hundreds of sites, and millions of people who believe this to be true....i didnt just come up with it, as you can see, i didnt write this....so this is not my translation, it happens to be the translation(s) that i agree with, yes. just to correct your last post.

I didn't say that you are the only person wrong about eternal punishment. Our English Bibles are quite clear and consistent. Eternal punishment is indeed eternal, NEVER ending.

 

[dollarsbill]

Let's consider that the term "eternal" can speak to the nature of something. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire".

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
​

Are the plains where these cities were located still burning? No. Then how was it "eternal fire"? Because it was delivered by God. If God punishes a soul for ten years... it's an "eternal punishement". Why? Because it's eternal in nature, having come from God.

The eternal fire comes later, not in the physical burning of Sodom.

 

[Hillsage]

Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

And on this scriptual point we are in total agreement. As I have always said; God is more worried about what you DO, than what you THINK doctrinally. And we will all be judged on whether you walked it right and not if you talked it right.

 

[he-man]

And on this scriptual point we are in total agreement. As I have always said; God is more worried about what you DO, than what you THINK doctrinally. And we will all be judged on whether you walked it right and not if you talked it right.

Excuse me but that sounds a little too mild for rebuke.
Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience cauterized;
3 Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word according to the teachings, that he may be able to exhort in doctrine which is sound and to convince the ones who speak against it.

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be covered over, who overturn whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for shameful gain.

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On

​

This thread has been cleaned.
Please stick to the topic and avoid flaming
Thanks.
Mod Hat Off​

 

[Hillsage]

Excuse me but that sounds a little too mild for rebuke.

Maybe that's because it wasn't meant as a rebuke. You simply had a whole post that was right and I just wanted to compliment you on it.

But enough of 'off topic' since we appear to have drifted.

 

[Stealth001]

The eternal fire comes later, not in the physical burning of Sodom.

Jude states that Sodom was an example having suffered eternal fire. The point is, the fire is no longer burning. And if they didn't suffer as an example of eternal fire... Jude was mistaken.

 

[he-man]

Jude states that Sodom was an example having suffered eternal fire. The point is, the fire is no longer burning. And if they didn't suffer as an example of eternal fire... Jude was mistaken.

No, their fire is still eternal because they no longer have life. They are eternally extinct. Just as you and I will be condemned with destruction if we conduct ourselves in the same manner.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with destruction, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Luk 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed all.

Num 26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.

1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Num_25:9

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Num_21:6

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Num 16:49
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[dollarsbill]

Jude states that Sodom was an example having suffered eternal fire. The point is, the fire is no longer burning. And if they didn't suffer as an example of eternal fire... Jude was mistaken.

The eternal fire is referring to AFTER this life. You are mistaken.

 

[Timothew]

The eternal fire is referring to AFTER this life. You are mistaken.

Then it wouldn't be an example, having not happened yet.

 

[he-man]

Then it wouldn't be an example, having not happened yet.

Right, their fire is still eternal because they no longer have life. They are eternally extinct. Just as you and I will be condemned with destruction if we conduct ourselves in the same manner.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with destruction, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Luk 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed all.

Num 26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.

1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Num_25:9

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Num_21:6

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Num 16:49
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[dollarsbill]

The eternal fire is not referring to the physical destruction of Sodom. Obviously it is referring to something else. Something later.