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Why is Hell permanent?

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Sadalmelik

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AGAIN, All you have offered is YOUR personal translation. No proof whatsoever.



oh, ok, ive only posted it for you over the course of the last 4 months, about 6 times, at least, and gave dozens of examples.....please do not lie, it offends me, and what your saying is not true, i can go back and get proof that i have posted it many times.....if you wish to ignore it, thats your choice, but stop saying its only my opinion, and i havent provided any proof, or at least posted scipture to back up my pov. cause you and i both know i have....

and untill you can provide proof that sodom and gemorrah are still buring, ill stick with my translation, not yours, cause if one were to believe your pov......it would still be smoldering....and we both know it isnt^_^
 
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he-man

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It is not lie that you are heavily dependent upon YOUR personal translation. Otherwise you haven't proven much, if any.

Since I have never said that Sodom is still burning how is that not a lying implication? I have clearly stated that the "eternal fire" goes beyond the physical destruction of Sodom into the next life, the eternal.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
 
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Hillsage

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Why are you afraid to answer my last posts question?

POST 308; Question, what do you believe is necessary for one to 'not be dead' spiritually?
YOUR ANSWER
To be 'born again', saved.
Now you've hung yourself theologically. Being "born again/saved" wasn't even possible in the parable of the prodigal son OR in the first verse you shared.

Matthew 8:22 (NASB)
22 But Jesus *said to him, "FOLLOW ME, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."
What Is being made available by Jesus in this verse above is the possibility of walking IN a 'living' physical relationship and FELLOWSHIP with Jesus as they "Follow Me".

Unless of course you want to say that being "born again" getting "saved" was available before Jesus even died on the cross. :doh:
 
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Sadalmelik

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It is not lie that you are heavily dependent upon YOUR personal translation. Otherwise you haven't proven much, if any.

Since I have never said that Sodom is still burning how is that not a lying implication? I have clearly stated that the "eternal fire" goes beyond the physical destruction of Sodom into the next life, the eternal.


well unfortunately for your pov, it totally contradicts it, because the same word(s) used to describe sodom and gomorrah burning forever, are the same one used to describe the eternal hell phallacy, and since sodom and gemorrah arent burning anymore, well anyone can do the math...dont add up. what i have stated in regards to this are facts, you can continue to say it is only my translation and my opinion.....but i know the definition of what a fact is, and therefore my statement(s) stand up fine, all by themselves.:thumbsup:

so just to clarify my position

which are stated facts, not opinions or my own translations.

the same words used to describe sodom and gomorrah, and hundreds of other verses in the bible, are the same ones used to describe eternal hell.

sodom and gomorrah are not still burning, nor are the hundreds of other things still going on in the bible, which used the same words describing them, that are used to describe eternal hell....

therefore it is a logical conclusion to think that these word(s), used do not always mean an endless duration.

those statements are all facts.

so you can continue to insist they are only my translations and opinions, i think everyone can make up their own minds in regards to it.:thumbsup:
 
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Sadalmelik

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Aion (Greek New Testament) / Oham = Hebrew (Hebrew Old Testament) [most Bibles put "forever" or "everlasting"]:


Before the Hebrew Old Testament was translated into Greek (200-300 B.C., according to Prideaux, or during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus, 285-247 B. C., say other authorities) this word aionion was in common use by the Greeks. Homer, Hesiod, Aeschylus, Pindar, Sophocles, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Empedocles, Euripedes, Philoctetes, and Plato, all use the word, but never once does one of them give it the sense of eternity.

Aristotle: "The entire heaven is one and eternal (aidios) having neither beginning nor end of an entire aion." And still more to the purpose is this quotation concerning God's existence: "Life and 'an aion continuous and eternal, zoe kai aion sunekes kai aidios.'" Here the word aidios, (eternal) is employed to qualify aion and impart to it what it had not of itself, the sense of eternal. Aristotle could be guilty of no such language as "an eternal eternity." Had the word aion contained the idea of eternity in his time, or in his mind, he would not have added aidios.

Josephus and Philo, Jewish Greeks, who wrote between the Old and New Testaments, use the word aionion with the meaning of temporal duration, always.

Alluding to the Pharisees, Josephus says: "They believe that the wicked are detained in an everlasting prison (eirgmon aidion) subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria) and the Essenes (another, Jewish sect) "Allotted to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing punishment (timoria adialeipton) where they suffer a deathless punishment, (athanaton timorian)."
Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and always used aionion to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of Philo, says he never used aionion for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew 25:46, precisely as Christ used it. "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aionios) from such as are more powerful."



Here we have the exact terms employed by our word, to show that aionion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ.


You may point to Jude 6. "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Hanson wrote, "The word here rendered "everlasting" is not aionios, temporary duration, but aidios, whose intrinsic meaning is endless. It is found in one other place in the New Testament, Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."


Now it must be admitted that this word among the Greeks had the sense of eternal, and should be understood as having that meaning wherever found, unless by express limitation it is shorn of its proper meaning. It is further admitted that had aidios occurred where aionios does, there would be no escape from the conclusion that the New Testament teaches Endless Punishment. It is further admitted that the word is here used in the exact sense of aionios, as is seen in the succeeding verse: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of aionian fire." That is to say, the "aidios chains" in verse 6 are "even as" durable as the "aionion fire" in verse 7. Which word modifies the other?



1) The construction of the language shows that the latter word limits the former. The aidios chains are even as the aionion fire. As if one should say "I have been infinitely troubled, I have been vexed for an hour," or "He is an endless talker, he can talk five yours on a stretch." Now while "infinitely" and "endless" usually convey the sense of unlimited, they are here limited by what follows, as aidios, eternal, is limited by aionios, indefinitely long.



2) That this is the correct exegesis is evident from still another limitation of the word. "The angels...he hath reserved in everlasting chains unto the judgment of the great day." Had Jude said that the angels are held in aidios chains, and stopped there, not limiting the word, it might be claimed that he taught their eternal imprisonment. But when he limits the duration by aionios and them expressly states that it is only unto a certain date, it follows that the imprisonment will terminate, even though we find applied to it a word that intrinsically signifies eternal duration, and that was used by the Greeks to convey the idea of eternity, and was attached to punishment by the Greek Jews of our Savior's times, to describe endless punishment, in which they were believers.




But observe, while this word aidios was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment, Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment?"
And as for the attributes of God it is quite simple. God is before the ages, he created the ages, he himself wasn't created, he's the King of the Ages, he spoke the ages into being, he has no beginning, he has no end, he is the self-existent one, etc. Therefore "olam" and "aionion" when applied to God (and His kingdom) denote "infinity" or "eternality" because of the object in view.




There are too many scriptures to mention them all using the term "forever" or "everlasting." Here are just a few as examples:



"We see the word "everlasting" applied to God's covenant with the Jews; to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple. We see the word forever applied to the duration of a man's earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi's leprosy; to the duration of the life of David; to the duration of a king's life; to the duration of the earth; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the time they were to dwell in Jerusalem; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the time Jerusalem was to remain a city; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the laws and ordinances of Moses; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; to the time the righteous were to inhabit the earth; and to the time Jonah was in the fish's belly.


"We find the phrase forever and ever applied to the hosts of heaven, or the sun, moon, and stars; to a writing contained in a book; to the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea; and to the time the Jews were to dwell in Judea. We find the word never applied to the time the fire was to burn on the Jewish altar; to the time the sword was to remain in the house of David; to God's covenant with the Jews; to the time the Jews should not experience shame; to the time the house of David was to reign over Israel; to the time the Jews were not to open their mouths because of their shame; to the time those who fell by death should remain in their fallen state; and to the time judgment was not executed


"But the law covenant is abolished; the priesthood of Aaron and his sons has ceased; the ordinances, and laws, and statutes of Moses are abrogated; the Jews have long since been dispossessed of the land of Canaan, have been driven from Judea, and God has brought upon them a reproach and a shame; the man to the duration of whose life the word forever was applied is dead; David is dead, and has ceased to reign over Israel; the throne of Solomon no longer exists; the Jewish temple is demolished, and Jerusalem has been overthrown, so that there is not left "one stone upon another;" the servants of the Jews have been freed from their masters; Gehazi is dead, and no one believes he carried his leprosy with him into the future world; the stones that were set up at Jordan have been removed, and the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea has ceased to ascend; the righteous do not inherit the earth endlessly, and no one believes that the mountains and hills, as such, are indestructible; the fire that burnt on the Jewish altar has long since ceased to burn; judgment has been executed; and no Christian believes that those who fall by death will never be awakened from their slumbers


"Now, as these words are used in this limited sense in the Scriptures, why should it be supposed that they express endless duration when applied to punishment?" (Thomas B. Thayer - The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment). See Everlasting. - Gen. 17:7, 8, 13; 48:4; 49:26; Exod. 40:15; LeV 16:34; Numb. 25:13; Ps. 24:7; Hab. 3:6. Forever. - Deut. 15:17; 1 Sam. 1:22; 27:12; Lev 25:46; 2 Kings 5:27; Job 41:4; 1 Kings 1:31; Neh. 2:3; Dan. 2:4; Exod. 14:13; Eccl 1:4; Ps. 104:5; 78:69; Ezek. 37:25; Gen. 13:15; Exod. 32:13; Josh. 14:9; 1 Chron. 23:25; Jer. 17:25; Ps. 48:8; Jer. 31:40; 1 Kings 8:13; Numb. 10:8;18:23; 1 Chron. 28:4; 1 Kings 9:5; Josh. 4:7; Jonah 2:6; Ps. 37:29. Forever and ever. - Ps. 148:5, 6; Isa. 30:8; 34:10; Jer. 7:7; 25:5. Never. - LeV 6:13; 2 Sam. 12:10; Judges 2:1; Joel 2:26, 27; Jer. 33:17; Ezek. 16:63; Amos 8:14; Hab. 1:4.


Hanson wrote, "All these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things -- things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionion words are applied--have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning."


Now these words are applied to God and the soul's happiness. They are words that in the Bible are never applied to punishment or anything perishable. They would have been affixed to punishment had the Bible intended to teach endless punishment. And certainly they show the error of those who declare that the indefinite word aionion is all the word, or the strongest one in the Bible, declarative of the endlessness of life beyond the grave. (ecclesia.org)



so actually that wouldnt just be my opinion, there are hundreds of sites, and millions of people who believe this to be true....i didnt just come up with it, as you can see, i didnt write this....so this is not my translation, it happens to be the translation(s) that i agree with, yes. just to correct your last post.
 
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he-man

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Aion (Greek New Testament) / Oham = Hebrew (Hebrew Old Testament) [most Bibles put "forever" or "everlasting"]:


Before the Hebrew Old Testament was translated into Greek (200-300 B.C., according to Prideaux, or during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus, 285-247 B. C., say other authorities) this word aionion was in common use by the Greeks. Homer, Hesiod, Aeschylus, Pindar, Sophocles, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Empedocles, Euripedes, Philoctetes, and Plato, all use the word, but never once does one of them give it the sense of eternity.
:doh:αἰώνιος -ία -ον age-long αἰώνιος , ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:—
A. lasting for an age (“αἰών” 11), perpetual, eternal Ev.Matt.25.46,Adv. -ίως eternally, “νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν” Procl.Inst.172, cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch.E.Alc.338.
αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.-Dsc.4.88. Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, id=Plat.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon.
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν penalty αιωνιον eternal οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον eternal
Mt 18:8, Mt 19:16, Mt 19:29, Mt 25:41, Mt 25:46, Mk 10:17, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25, Lk 18:18, Lk 18:30, Jn 3:15, Jn 3:16, Jn 3:36, Jn 4:14, Jn 4:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 5:39, Jn 6:27, Jn 6:40, Jn 6:47, Jn 6:54, Jn 10:28, Jn 12:25, Jn 17:2, Acts 13:48, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:22, 2Cor 4:17, 2Cor 5:1, Gal 6:8, 2Thes 1:9, 1Tm 1:16, 1Tm 6:16, Phlm 1:15, 1Pt 5:10, 2Pt 1:11, 1Jn 1:2, 1Jn 2:25, 1Jn 3:15, 1Jn 5:11, 1Jn 5:13, Jude 1:21, Rv 14:6
 
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Stealth001

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There are many sincere Christians of sensitive heart from all faith traditions who believe in Apocatastasis (Universal Reconciliation). An excellent book on the topic is titled, Hope Beyond Hell, and can be downloaded in .pdf format if searched for on Google. It's an easy read and presents the theological argument in a way that the non-theologian can grasp the concept. This doctrine is also called the Blessed Hope. This book addresses almost all the arguments against Apocatastasis, language, and gives examples of linguistic usage of various terms throughout the Bible. He also quotes many theologians and Hebrew/Greek scholars. Many very well known individuals are quoted. Also, some history of the doctrine is presented. For example, out of the six best known early schools of Christianity... four taught this doctrine.

I'm not convinced either way after reading this book and a few others. I do respect those who believe in Universal Reconciliation. I now know why they believe what they do. Part of me hopes that it is true. It truly presents a loving God who will punish wickedness and correct His children. I've debated the topic in the past. It's a provocative position.

Philippians 2:9-11

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


 
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he-man

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:doh:αἰώνιος -ία -ον age-long αἰώνιος , ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:—
A. lasting for an age (“αἰών” 11), perpetual, eternal Ev.Matt.25.46,Adv. -ίως eternally, “νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν” Procl.Inst.172, cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch.E.Alc.338.
αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.-Dsc.4.88. Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, id=Plat.
Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon.
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν penalty αιωνιον eternal οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον eternal
Mt 18:8, Mt 19:16, Mt 19:29, Mt 25:41, Mt 25:46, Mk 10:17, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25, Lk 18:18, Lk 18:30, Jn 3:15, Jn 3:16, Jn 3:36, Jn 4:14, Jn 4:36, Jn 5:24, Jn 5:39, Jn 6:27, Jn 6:40, Jn 6:47, Jn 6:54, Jn 10:28, Jn 12:25, Jn 17:2, Acts 13:48, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:22, 2Cor 4:17, 2Cor 5:1, Gal 6:8, 2Thes 1:9, 1Tm 1:16, 1Tm 6:16, Phlm 1:15, 1Pt 5:10, 2Pt 1:11, 1Jn 1:2, 1Jn 2:25, 1Jn 3:15, 1Jn 5:11, 1Jn 5:13, Jude 1:21, Rv 14:6

Heb 9:12
nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος
 
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Stealth001

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Let's consider that the term "eternal" can speak to the nature of something. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire".

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Are the plains where these cities were located still burning? No. Then how was it "eternal fire"? Because it was delivered by God. If God punishes a soul for ten years... it's an "eternal punishement". Why? Because it's eternal in nature, having come from God.
 
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he-man

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Let's consider that the term "eternal" can speak to the nature of something. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire".
Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Are the plains where these cities were located still burning? No. Then how was it "eternal fire"? Because it was delivered by God. If God punishes a soul for ten years... it's an "eternal punishement". Why? Because it's eternal in nature, having come from God.
And Where is Sodom and Gomorrah today? Archeologists cannot even find it. Still buried in eternal ashes!

Heb 9:12 nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος

 
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Stealth001

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And Where is Sodom and Gomorrah today? Archeologists cannot even find it. Still buried in eternal ashes!

Heb 9:12 nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος


The Bible doesn't say "eternal ashes" (of course the ashes have long since vanished too). The Bible speaks of "eternal fire". The fire was "eternal" because it was of divine origin and served a divine purpose.

Please note.... God promised to restore Sodom:

Ezekiel 16:53

English Standard Version (ESV)

53 “I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst,


So much for "eternal" ashes. lol
 
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mandelduke

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A question I have been asking myself lately...

Why is damnation in hell permanent? Why not another chance after a certain duration of punishment?
Hell is not permanent both soul and body Will be killed in hell. Matthew 10:28
Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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Stealth001

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Also note something about the lake of "fire and brimstone".

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The word "brimstone" reveals something interesting here. The word for "brimstone" is "theion" meaning:

2303 // yeion // theion // thi'-on //

probably of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); TDNT - 3:122,*; n n

AV - brimstone 7; 7

1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having
power to purify
, and to ward off disease
Ah... a lake of "fire and purification".

Next consider this...

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:45-46&version=KJV
That term "punishment" is "kolasis" meaning:

2851 // kolasiv // kolasis // kol'-as-is //

from 2849 ; TDNT - 3:816,451; n f

AV - punishment 1, torment 1; 2

1) correction, punishment, penalty

For Synonyms see entry 5859 & 5909
The root of "kolasis" is "kolazo" meaning:

2849 // kolazw // kolazo // kol-ad'-zo //

from kolos (dwarf); TDNT - 3:814,451; v

AV - punish 2; 2

1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Here the wording is more in line with a corrective chastisement. A spiritual "pruning" if you will. So we see a "correction" that indeed lasts forever.

The Universalist view is simple... all would have perished forever had not Christ died for the entire world. Now, through the blood of Jesus, God is justified in saving and rewarding the righteous while feasomely purifying the wicked. Hell is no joke... even if it is only for a period of time. Also consider:

Luke 12:46-48

King James Version (KJV)

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


This servant is appointed his portion with the unbelievers. Here we see that punishment isn't equal. Some are punished with many stripes, while others are punished with fewer stripes. It's obvious that those punished by many stripes are punished longer than those punished with fewer stripes. This testifies to a limited duration of corrective punishment. God uses a furnace to purify those who will not bow before Him today in Christ Jesus.

My point is that there are multiple views on Hell. One is that it is eternal. The second is that it vaporizes the wicked out of existence. The third is that it was created by God to punish and purify the wicked. We do see the end of the matter:

Philippians 2:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


And....

1 Corinthians 15:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


At the consumation of all things... God will be ALL in ALL. That leaves no exceptions.

This is the theological concept of Universal Reconciliation:

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+2:1-3&version=KJV
 
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Stealth001

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Hell is not permanent both soul and body Will be killed in hell. Matthew 10:28
Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Destroy means to make ruin of. Get real. Besides, it doesn't say that God will... it only says that He can.
 
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Stealth001

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Why isn't that so many profess that Jesus came to save the world... but insist that He couldn't have been 100% successful???

If God desires that all men be saved... God gets what He desires. Even if they have to pass through the flames. Hell serves a purpose beyond never ending torture. <edit>

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 
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Stealth001

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As I said in another post, there are multiple views and interpretations of Hell. It's much like the Rapture doctrine with it's multiple views and interpretations. I believe there is room for tolerance on the issue as long as one does believe in the punishment of the wicked.
 
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mandelduke

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Why isn't that so many profess that Jesus came to save the world... but insist that He couldn't have been 100% successful???

If God desires that all men be saved... God gets what He desires. Even if they have to pass through the flames. Hell serves a purpose beyond never ending torture. <edit>
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The reason it will not be 100% is God gave us free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Revelation 2:11
He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
 
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Hillsage

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The reason it will not be 100% is God gave us free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Revelation 2:11
He, who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Free will is a myth when it comes to initial salvation. God must "predestine", "ordain", "call", "draw/drag" all who initially come to Him. If God would have blown my dad off a donkey and spoke from heaven...he too would have accepted, just like Paul. But God DID NOT DO THAT so He is either a respecter of persons, or He has a plan most of Christianity today is ignorant of.

Whose will is mentioned in this 'born again' verse.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of (the will of) God.

All of your OT scriptures were written to the CHOSEN people...the NT equivalent of that is CHRISTIANS...not the unsaved.

Your Revelation quote is also speaking only to "the overcomers" OF THE 7 CHURCHES...eg CHRISTIANS. And even then it isn't addressing ALL the saved sitting in the church. It has nothing to do with the unbeliever.
 
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he-man

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Free will is a myth when it comes to initial salvation. God must "predestine", "ordain", "call", "draw/drag" all who initially come to Him. Whose will is mentioned in this 'born again' verse.
JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of (the will of) God. It has nothing to do with the unbeliever.
Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, *but of God.
* Note: "nor of the will of man" is not in the Manuscripts

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"Called" transmits the message that you can refuse the call if you so wish.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2Jn 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

That Christ could have refused to be hung on a tree is shown by his statement in Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Christ had a choice:

Joh 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

The children of Israel had a choice and rejected God.

Hos 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

 
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Hillsage

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Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Well, according to scripture it was to 'force every one into a common SUBJECTION to sin' AGAINST their supposed FREE will. Did you 'willingly' sign up for a bondage to the nature of sin? Sure was against my will.

GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Now who do you think does this ORDAINING, so that you CAN believe? My vote is GOD ordains.

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, *but of God.
* Note: "nor of the will of man" is not in the Manuscripts
Nor of the flesh is, and that pretty much takes in everyone.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw/DRAG him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)

So much for 'Free will' if the Father has to DRAG you to Him.


"Called" transmits the message that you can refuse the call if you so wish.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen
Not if you study a little bit deeper and look at the definition of the word "called". 2822 kletos:invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint

So how does it 'now' read?
"For many are "SAINTS", but few are chosen", ouch.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

That Christ could have refused to be hung on a tree is shown by his statement in Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Christ had a choice:
And AFTER you have been set free by you might have a FREE choice/will too.

JOH 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.


The children of Israel had a choice and rejected God .

Hos 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
READ it again; Because His people rejected knowledge God said; "I will also forget thy children." sounds like this verse says the children were cursed...probably against their FREE will.

Now, since all these scriptures don't prove FREE WILL answer me this:


In every scripture you quoted
, what FREE WILL did the Israelites, exercise to BE the CHOSEN people of God. Let me answer that they didn't because it was GODS WILL that they were Chosen of God to be born JEWS...the CHOSEN people.
 
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