Why is Hell permanent?

[dollarsbill]

trying to enlighten you as to what the gospel actually says, not what another human being says that it says.

Annihilation doesn't fly, unless you believe God is VERY unjust.

 

[dollarsbill]

sounds more like dante than the bible, cause the bible states nowhere that there are varying degrees of fire in hell, this is just another made up idea by man, in an attempt to scare people into coming to God. another concept from pagan origins, and not scriptual.
and also makes people feel better about hell, cause 'grandma' wont suffer as much as hitler the fire will be only 200 degrees for 'grandma' and 200 billion for hitler.

I wasn't quoting "dante", I quoted God's word. There's a huge difference.

 

[dollarsbill]

You've told me over and over that the wages of sin is NOT death. Clearly YOUR translation disagrees with every English Bible we have.

The wages of sin indeed is death, physical and spiritual. Care to retract that statement?

"My" translation does not disagree with other english translations. Please post where you believe that I translated something that disagrees. I want to see the post. You are making claims about me that aren't accurate. You should stop doing this.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Timothew]

The wages of sin indeed is death, physical and spiritual. Care to retract that statement?

Yes, I will retract that statement. I mis-spoke. Nearly everyone who believes in eternal torment wants to translate Romans 6:23 as "The wages of sin is "spiritual" death." I'm very happy that you showed that I was wrong. I'm sorry dollarsbill.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

και ο διαβολος ο πλανων αυτους εβληθη εις την λιμνην του πυρος και θειου οπου και το θηριον και ο ψευδοπροφητης και βασανισθησονται ημερας και νυκτος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων

I wouuld translate this as:
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet are; and they will be tormented (βασανισθησοντα&#953 day and night into the age of ages (or forever).

βασανισθησονται
Examine, as by torture; torment; buffet, as of waves.

αἰῶνας
an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

αἰώνων
plural of αἰών, αἰῶνας

These aren't my definitions (They are from Strong's Greek Dictionary) and they don't change the meaning of the verse. I would probably include the idea of examining by torture in the translation, if I were translating this.

The problem though, is not the translation, The book of Revelation is easy enough to translate. The problem is understanding what kind of book the book of Revelation is. If you take the words of the Apocalypse of John literally, you miss the meaning. John wrote it this way on purpose, so that his intended recipients would understand it, but the enemies of the churches would not.

 

[Timothew]

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So as you can see, I agree with that translation. Is there no place where I've translated something different than "most other english translations" as you claimed? Can't you supply any examples of me mistranslating?

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, I will retract that statement. I mis-spoke. Nearly everyone who believes in eternal torment wants to translate Romans 6:23 as "The wages of sin is "spiritual" death." I'm very happy that you showed that I was wrong. I'm sorry dollarsbill.

No problem.

 

[dollarsbill]

So as you can see, I agree with that translation. Is there no place where I've translated something different than "most other english translations" as you claimed? Can't you supply any examples of me mistranslating?

You can't believe in annihilation and believe this Scripture also.

"they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[Hillsage]

Had to rewrite because of changes

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, so you think Hitler and Granny will receive the exact same punishment.

In Luke 12 we are told that there are degrees of punishment -- some receive few lashes (little torment) some many lashes (much torment).

But ALL are ultimately "destroyed both body and soul in fiery hell" according to Matt 10:28.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You can't believe in annihilation and believe this Scripture also.

"they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The smoke ascends up "forever and ever" in the land of hedge hog and pelican according to Isaiah 34:8-11 - yet those animals live there -- in the former land of Edom.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[dollarsbill]

In Luke 12 we are told that there are degrees of punishment -- some receive few lashes (little torment) some many lashes (much torment).

But ALL are ultimately "destroyed both body and soul in fiery hell" according to Matt 10:28.

in Christ,

Bob

God is going to torment them and then destroy them?

 

[dollarsbill]

The smoke ascends up "forever and ever" in the land of hedge hog and pelican according to Is 34-8-11 - yet those animals live there -- in the former land of Edom.

in Christ,

Bob

OT does not overrule NT. You've got it backwards.

Matthew 18:8 (NASB)
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

 

[Sophrosyne]

God is going to torment them and then destroy them?

That is kind of like sentencing someone to 20 years in prison and the death penalty IMO.

 

[Timothew]

You can't believe in annihilation and believe this Scripture also.

"they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

You have to understand the genre of the book that you are reading.

You can't believe in eternal torment and believe these scriptures also:
The wages of sin is death.
These pay the penalty of eternal destruction.
The wicked will perish.
Wide is the gate that leads to destruction.
Unless you repent you will likewise perish.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Hillsage]

Then what kind of 'dead' is it? The same as this:

Luke 15:24 (NASB)
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

Dead and alive at the same time.

No it is not 'the same kind of dead'. And since it isn't, you have an added theological problem IMO. When did this son die, and when did he become alive again?

If he became lost/dead when he left his earthly father, then spiritual death has absolutely no relevance in the parable, nor does your attempt to prove that spiritual death is a reality since this is an earthly father in the parable.

If it means that he was to be buried, like Jesus spoke of in the last verse you quoted, then this kid was never buried, so physical death has no relevance.

The only life/death symbolic relevance here, has to do with the death of 'fellowship ina father/son relationship'. And to have such 'fellowship death' requires that one must already be in a living relationship to begin with. IOW you must be born into this earthly father/son relationship in the parable and spiritually speaking, you must be 'born again' spiritually for it to be a relevant spiritual 'father/son relationship' to our heavenly father. But in none of these scenarios is a dead spirit even a relevant point.

Why are you afraid to answer my last posts question?

POST 308; Question, what do you believe is necessary for one to 'not be dead' spiritually?

Question from this post now is added; When did this son die, and when did he become alive again?

 

[Sadalmelik]

You can't believe in annihilation and believe this Scripture also.

"they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

i do, the part of forever and ever is just mistranslated, as has been shown and proven that it doesnt have to mean 'without end', your the one who chooses to believe it means that, its not what original biblical texts said.....many times the words forever and ever, and similiar words, have been used, which have ended....and therefore matthew is not proof of anything when it comes to 'eternal torment'. its just another mistranslated word in a series of them, that were translated for diabolical purposes, other than doing what should have been done... translating the truth.

 

[dollarsbill]

You have to understand the genre of the book that you are reading.

The verse is perfectly easy to understand and consistent with the NT. Eternal, forever = NEVER ending.

You can't believe in eternal torment and believe these scriptures also:
The wages of sin is death.

You keep quoting that verse over and over and it has NOTHING to do with this. It is referring to physical and spiritual death, NOT extinction.

These pay the penalty of eternal destruction.

If you are right it wouldn't say 'eternal'. Destruction would be perfect.

The wicked will perish.

The wicked perish everyday. So what?

Wide is the gate that leads to destruction.

Obviously referring to:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Again, NOT extinction.

Unless you repent you will likewise perish.

People perish everyday. Still doesn't mean they 'cease to exist'.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Keep reading:

John 3:36 (NASB)
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[Hillsage]

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

Do you believe that there is a difference between regeneration, renewal and conversion? I do, and this verse is speaking in regards to conversion. And conversion pertains to a physical/body change in walk or lifestyle.. It is in conversion that our sins are blotted out which cancels out the temporal curse but not the eternal one. Forgiveness of sins and blotting them out is two different things. Forgiveness which comes upon spirit regeneration is different than the renewal of the soul, or the conversion of ones bodily walk.

Heb 4:6

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

If you read this verse in context you once again see that this is talking about someting that is done AFTER one is born again or 'chosen'. It is talking about entering the "rest" of God. The 'Jews/chosen ones' did not enter into that rest simply because of unbelief and the 'Christians/chosen ones' that are being written to in your above Hebrews verse are also being told that there is still a rest that comes from belief,obedience and striving.

HEB 4:9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;
10 for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.

But all of this is really not relevant to the topic of this thread, and I do not want to debate this as my time here is a bit limited lately.

 

[dollarsbill]

No it is not 'the same kind of dead'. And since it isn't, you have an added theological problem IMO. When did this son die, and when did he become alive again?

It is indeed the same, 'dead and alive'. Spiritual death!

If he became lost/dead when he left his earthly father, then spiritual death has absolutely no relevance in the parable, or your attempt to prove spiritual death is a reality since this is an earthly father.

It is clearly referring to our relationship with God. We were dead and are now alive, spiritually.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (NASB)
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

If it means that he was to be buried, like Jesus spoke of in the last verse you quoted, then this kid was never buried, so physical death has no relevance.

It is referring to those who are doing the burying. They are called "dead". Spiritually dead.

The only life/death symbolic relevance here, has to do with the death of 'fellowship ina father/son relationship'. And to have such 'fellowship death' requires that one must already be in a living relationship to begin with. IOW you must be born into this earthly father/son relationship in the parable and spiritually speaking, you must be 'born again' spiritually for it to be a relevant spiritual 'father/son relationship' to our heavenly father. But in none of these scenarios is a dead spirit even a relevant point.

"He was dead", spiritually dead.

Why are you afraid to answer my last posts question?

POST 308; Question, what do you believe is necessary for one to 'not be dead' spiritually?

To be 'born again', saved.

Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

 

[dollarsbill]

i do, the part of forever and ever is just mistranslated, as has been shown and proven that it doesnt have to mean 'without end', your the one who chooses to believe it means that, its not what original biblical texts said.....many times the words forever and ever, and similiar words, have been used, which have ended....and therefore matthew is not proof of anything when it comes to 'eternal torment'. its just another mistranslated word in a series of them, that were translated for diabolical purposes, other than doing what should have been done... translating the truth.

AGAIN, All you have offered is YOUR personal translation. No proof whatsoever.