Why is Hell permanent?

[dollarsbill]

Sciene has shown there was no great flood that drowned the Earth and that humanity is most certainly not decended from 8 individuals that survived it.

Let's see, should we believe 'science' or God? Not really a tough choice.

 

[dollarsbill]

And you are saying that Granny and Hitler receive the exact same punishment: an eternity being tortured in hell.

So your statement condemns your doctrine much more than it condemns mine.

We will be judged individually and fairly according to all that's recorded in God's books. Hell could very well have different degrees of punishment therein. I.E. from bad to worst.

Revelation 20:11-15 (NASB)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[dollarsbill]

I trust God who looks at the heart. He is able to be just and fair to Granny and Hitler.
He won't torture Granny right next to Hitler for all eternity. What do you think? That Hitler will be burned alive for all eternity with really hot flames and Granny will be burned alive for all eternity with less hot flames? Granny thanks you for that consideration! Not.

Ok, so you think Hitler and Granny will receive the exact same punishment.

 

[dollarsbill]

How old is your grandmother? You are telling me she has not had the chance to seek God?

Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Hitler, Stalin, Truman, all dictators, already have paid the penalty of death and will not see the face of God.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Another one who believes that Granny and Hitler will receive the exact same punishment.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Let's see, should we believe 'science' or God? Not really a tough choice.

Its not god, but humans who wrote the bible about god, they are not infalliable and niether is the bible.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Another one who believes that Granny and Hitler will receive the exact same punishment.

Why are you so hung up on punishment.

If you really believe your going to heaven, paradise surely knowledge that Hitler will never ever be there is punishment enough? Oh no, whats that, you'd like to see him tortured too? Eternally?

Yes he was a evil man
Yes his works killed millions
But they did not last eternally.

 

[Timothew]

Ok, so you think Hitler and Granny will receive the exact same punishment.

That's not what I said. However...An eternity in hell's torment is equal to an eternity in hell's torment (if such a thing existed, but you say it does), So I'm not following your argument that under your system Hitler and your (mythological) Granny receive different punishments. I guess you are saying that Granny will be tortured forever in the nice section of hell. If I'm being tortured forever, I'm not really thinking "Oh, what nice wallpaper this is!"

 

[Hillsage]

You still didn't answer the question. What kind of death is this?

Matthew 8:22 (NASB)
22 But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

I've been out of town, and really didn't even know whether I wanted to re-enter this yesterday upon checking where it's at, but;

It is body death in the verse you quote.

The spirit departs the body before you put it in the ground. Jewish belief was that it did linger for three days before doing so. That's why it was such a big deal to Martha when Jesus raised her brother . Because Lazarus had been dead 4 days, and they believed that was too late for a spirit to return. I'm not even sure where I learned that, or if it is even true. Anyone else ever hear something similar?

As to the soul...I know not where it goes...but possibly Paradise, and a/or dreamy soul sleep awaiting wakening and judgment. I am only guessing as to where though.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So you have nothing to say for those who never heard the gospel except that we don't know if they deserved to burn in hell. For having no knowledge of christ they burn. I cannot reconcile the ideas that a god who loves us all equally would allow those who never even had a chance to hear his message to suffer in the afterlife for crimes they did not even comprehende.

Is it God's fault that people purposely refuse to tell their children about God and then those children do likewise for theirs? It is like saying that a doctor who invents a vaccine for a disease is responsible for all the deaths of a tribe in the remote regions of south america because he doesn't fly down there and talk to them in their native language and make sure they understand they need it to live. Man is responsible for his own rejecting Christ and encouraging his offspring and others to ignore God for generations.... not God. The problem we have is that some people "think" that everyone deserves heaven by default and that those who don't get a chance to go there can call God evil when in fact heaven is a privilege afforded to those who believe and accept the invitation. God has no obligation to make sure ALL mankind gets the invitation just as throughout the OT he had no obligation to convince all mankind to get on the ark with noah to keep from being drowned.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork. There were many in the OT that followed God without the direct Gospel and faith in God was imputed unto them salvation. The simple thing is faith in God saves us, and the OT saints believed in God without the Gospel and were saved. I contend that those who did not directly hear the gospel but put their faith in God accept Jesus as they understand him. There are stories of Muslims that never heard the gospel having visions and accepting Jesus because of just that. God will judge properly those he thinks accept him applicable to accepting Christ and those who do not.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Is it God's fault that people purposely refuse to tell their children about God and then those children do likewise for theirs? It is like saying that a doctor who invents a vaccine for a disease is responsible for all the deaths of a tribe in the remote regions of south america because he doesn't fly down there and talk to them in their native language and make sure they understand they need it to live. Man is responsible for his own rejecting Christ and encouraging his offspring and others to ignore God for generations.... not God. The problem we have is that some people "think" that everyone deserves heaven by default and that those who don't get a chance to go there can call God evil when in fact heaven is a privilege afforded to those who believe and accept the invitation. God has no obligation to make sure ALL mankind gets the invitation just as throughout the OT he had no obligation to convince all mankind to get on the ark with noah to keep from being drowned.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork. There were many in the OT that followed God without the direct Gospel and faith in God was imputed unto them salvation. The simple thing is faith in God saves us, and the OT saints believed in God without the Gospel and were saved. I contend that those who did not directly hear the gospel but put their faith in God accept Jesus as they understand him. There are stories of Muslims that never heard the gospel having visions and accepting Jesus because of just that. God will judge properly those he thinks accept him applicable to accepting Christ and those who do not.

What of those who have NEVER heard of the gospel? They never had the choice. Humanity has existed roughly 100,000 to 250,000 years. What of those born before Christ?

 

[Soulgazer]

What of those who have NEVER heard of the gospel? They never had the choice. Humanity has existed roughly 100,000 to 250,000 years. What of those born before Christ?

PART II. THE DESCENT INTO HELL

This writing, or the nucleus of it, the story of the Descent into Hell was not originally part of the Acts of Pilate. It is -apart from its setting- probably an older document. When it was first attached to the Acts of Pilate is uncertain. The object of this prefatory note is to say that we have the text in three forms, [however, only the Latin A text will be given. For a complete listing of all three texts see M.R. James apocryphal New Testament].

.[Part I, cap. xvi, ends with words of the rulers of the synagogue, &c. All nations shall serve him, and kings shall come from afar worshipping and magnifying him. Part II, cap. i, runs on from this.~

I (XVII)

1 And Joseph arose and said unto Annas and Caiaphas: Truly and of right do ye marvel because ye have heard that Jesus hath been seen alive after death, and that he hath ascended into heaven. Nevertheless it is more marvelous that he rose not alone from the dead, but did raise up alive many other dead out of their sepulchres, and they have been seen of many in Jerusalem. And now hearken unto me; for we all know the blessed Simeon, the high priest which received the child Jesus in his hands in the temple. And this Simeon had two sons, brothers in blood and we all were at their falling asleep and at their burial. Go therefore and look upon their sepulchres: for they are open, because they have risen, and behold they are in the city of Arimathaea dwelling together in prayer. And indeed men hear them crying out, yet they speak with no man, but are silent as dead men. But come, let us go unto them and with all honour and gentleness bring them unto us, and if we adjure them, perchance they will tell us concerning the mystery of their rising again.
2 When they heard these things, they all rejoiced. And Annas and Caiaphas, Nicodemus and Joseph and Gamaliel went and found them not in their sepulchre, but they went unto the city of Arimathaea, and found them there, kneeling on their knees and giving themselves unto prayer. And they kissed them, and with all reverence and in the fear of God they brought them to Jerusalem into the synagogue. And they shut the doors and took the law of the Lord and put it into their hands, and adjured them by the God Adonai and the God of Israel which spake unto our fathers by the prophets, saying: Believe ye that it is Jesus which raised you from the dead? Tell us how ye have arisen from the dead.
3 And when Karinus and Leucius heard this adjuration, they trembled in their body and groaned, being troubled in heart. And looking up together unto heaven they made the seal of the cross with their fingers upon their tongues, and forthwith they spake both of them, saying: Give us each a volume of paper, and let us write that which we have seen and heard. And they gave them unto them, and each of them sat down and wrote, saying:

II (XVIII)

1 O Lord Jesu Christ, the life and resurrection of the dead (al. resurrection of the dead and the life of the living), suffer us to speak of the mysteries of thy majesty which thou didst perform after thy death upon the cross, inasmuch as we have been adjured by thy Name. For thou didst command us thy servants to tell no man the secrets of thy divine majesty which thou wroughtest in hell.
Now when we were set together with all our fathers in the deep, in obscurity of darkness, on a sudden there came a golden heat of the sun and a purple and royal light shining upon us. And immediately the father of the whole race of men, together with all the patriarchs and prophets, rejoiced, saying: This light is the beginning (author) of everlasting light which did promise to send unto us his co-eternal light. And Esaias cried out and said: This is the light of the Father, even the Son of God, according as I prophesied when I lived upon the earth: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim beyond Jordan, of Galilee of the Gentiles, the people that walked in darkness have seen a great light, and they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them did the light shine. And now hath it come and shone upon us that sit in death.
2 And as we all rejoiced in the light which shined upon us, there came unto us our father Simeon, and he rejoicing said unto us: Glorify ye the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God; for I received him in my hands in the temple when he was born a child, and being moved of the Holy Ghost I made confession and said unto him: Now have mine eyes seen thy salvation which thou hast prepared before the face of all people, a light to lighten the Gentiles, and to be the glory of thy people Israel. And when they heard these things, the whole multitude of the saints rejoiced yet more.

~Gospel of Nicodemus

 

[Sophrosyne]

What of those who have NEVER heard of the gospel? They never had the choice. Humanity has existed roughly 100,000 to 250,000 years. What of those born before Christ?

Think about Abraham

 

[Timothew]

ya, that was a good one too, but i still remember the funniest, was actually something you posted, it was a picture of a contortionist or something, i dont really know, all i know is a girl was all twisted around like a pretzel, i was in tears with that one.

Thanks, but I think I got modded for that one.

 

[Timothew]

How does she do that?

 

[Sadalmelik]

Thanks, but I think I got modded for that one.

dude, for the context of the conversation, it was perfect, glad you saved it, im trying not to laugh to hard now, as not to wake my son.

i didnt know this was possible, i know, it hurts just looking at it, i wonder if the cia could use this for enhanced interrogation techniques?

 

[dollarsbill]

Its not god, but humans who wrote the bible about god, they are not infalliable and niether is the bible.

And that's your opinion.

 

[dollarsbill]

Why are you so hung up on punishment.

It's Biblical doctrine.

 

[dollarsbill]

That's not what I said. However...

Then tell us how all the wicked will be destroyed but they're not receiving the same punishment.

 

[dollarsbill]

It is body death in the verse you quote.

Read it again.

Matthew 8:22 (NASB)
22 But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

 

[dollarsbill]

at times, yes, i have been amused, i do indeed remember the ashes running around, weeping and gnashing their teeth....i never did get an answer as to whether or not ashes have teeth? how did they put that.....'the dont die, they just change form', something like that i believe it was.

The clear answer was that was referring to physical bodies in this life. At lease I give answers to questions.