Why is Hell permanent?

[dollarsbill]

In Matthew 25:46 the word for punishment is "kolasis". It means "correction". It's root is the Greek word "kolazo", meaning to "prune". The word is used to denote the pruning of a vine by a vinedresser. The pruning chastens the vine, and causes it to grow correctly. A correction.

An "eternal correction" is a correction that lasts forever. Not a never ending correcting. Why? Because by definition if the correcting lasts forever... nothing's being corrected.

None of which agrees with our English Bibles. Hell is not corrective.

 

[Stealth001]

You are offering hope that the Bible does not. There will be no escape from the ETERNAL fire.

Really?

Please note the very description of the "lake of fire". Most don't realize that this isn't it's name. It's actually... the "lake of fire and brimstone". What is "brimstone"? In the Greek "brimstone" is "theion". Among the ancient peoples of that region "theion" (brimstone) was a sacred incense. This incense was believed to have the power to "purify" and ward off disease. Look it up in your Strong's.

Therefore... when a Greek mind read the phrase "lake of fire and brimstone" their minds understood, "lake of fire and purification". Yes, the nature of this fire is eternal. It's corrective and purifying effects are also.

 

[Stealth001]

Certainly, but the Bible gives precise info on this. Luke 16. Rev 14 and 20 and others. The rich man who died and is alive in the fire is unmistakeable!

The rich man's "kolasis" (Grk. for punishment/correction) wasn't yet complete.

 

[Stealth001]

None of which agrees with our English Bibles. Hell is not corrective.

The Bible wasn't written in English <staff edit>. lol

 

[dollarsbill]

The Bible wasn't written in English <staff edit>. lol

I see, another who 'refutes' our English Bibles with YOUR personal translation. That's quite common around here.

 

[Sophrosyne]

While that is possible, and is the traditional take on it, Jonah describes the waves and the deep encompassing him. Jonah talks about becoming intangled in sea weed. Jonah describes the "roots of the mountains" (bottom of the sea), and the bars of the land of death below the earth. Now... I know verse 2 could be a euphemism for the belly of the fish being the grave or "hell". However, given all the statements in this context... the guy was obviously having an out of body experience wherein Jonah was consciously witnessing himself being carried by currents into the depths of the sea. Jonah was dead. This was an NDE. And as with many NDE's, Jonah cried out to God... and God heard him, had mercy, and sent him back.

Or the fish swallowed seaweed and 3 days trapped hopeless in it in the dark made him delirious. The style in which this was written isn't factual but more poetic like more of a dream than anything so trying to imply he died is inconclusive.

 

[Stealth001]

What most of you are saying is that God created Satan and the entire human race knowing that he would either torture the vast majority of living souls, or vaporize them, in the lake of fire. Now, if that&#8217;s true&#8230; who has brought the most torment upon creation? Most also state that God desires to save all men. To insist that God will torture the vast majority in Hell or vaporize them is essentially insisting that God will fail at what he desires to do, making God the only God who failed. How can we not walk away thinking, &#8220;Poor poor God. He couldn&#8217;t save mankind.&#8221; ?

Consider this verse:

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

Notice it says that Christ is not only our propitiation, but the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That means every last human being on the planet. God&#8217;s Word also made this warning:

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
​

So&#8230; one has a choice. They can be baptized with the Holy Ghost in this dispensation of grace&#8230; or be baptized with fire. Either way&#8230; all men will be baptized. Note what Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
​

So&#8230; in Adam ALL die. In Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order. First we have Christ as the firstfruits, then we who are in Christ at his coming, then comes the end when Christ will have subjugated all creation and put all things under his feet. Even &#8220;death&#8221; is destroyed. Death cannot be truly destroyed if anyone is still bound by death&#8217;s chains. So all must be made alive in Christ. And when this happens, Jesus himself will be subject to the Father that put all things under him. Why? So that God may be ALL in ALL. That leaves no exceptions. Paul also wrote:

Philippians 2:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
​

So here Paul tells us that &#8220;every knee&#8221; shall bow&#8230; and &#8220;every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. That means all souls will accept Jesus as Lord. Also notice&#8230; this is to the glory of God the Father.

So&#8230; how is God glorified if He fails to redeem every soul in His creation? Satan will have successfully separated God from the vast majority of mankind. So God fails at saving the world&#8230; Satan wins by gaining the majority. That can&#8217;t glorify God.

 

[Stealth001]

I see, another who 'refutes' our English Bibles with YOUR personal translation. That's quite common around here.

What is meant by this verse?

Genesis 49:6
O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

​

Tell me, is the English a correct interpretation here? Yes or no?

 

[dollarsbill]

What most of you are saying is that God created Satan and the entire human race knowing that he would either torture the vast majority of living souls, or vaporize them, in the lake of fire. Now, if that’s true… who has brought the most torment upon creation? Most also state that God desires to save all men. To insist that God will torture the vast majority in Hell or vaporize them is essentially insisting that God will fail at what he desires to do, making God the only God who failed. How can we not walk away thinking, “Poor poor God. He couldn’t save mankind.” ?

Consider this verse:

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

Notice it says that Christ is not only our propitiation, but the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. That means every last human being on the planet. God’s Word also made this warning:

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
​

So… one has a choice. They can be baptized with the Holy Ghost in this dispensation of grace… or be baptized with fire. Either way… all men will be baptized. Note what Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
King James Version (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
​

So… in Adam ALL die. In Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order. First we have Christ as the firstfruits, then we who are in Christ at his coming, then comes the end when Christ will have subjugated all creation and put all things under his feet. Even “death” is destroyed. Death cannot be truly destroyed if anyone is still bound by death’s chains. So all must be made alive in Christ. And when this happens, Jesus himself will be subject to the Father that put all things under him. Why? So that God may be ALL in ALL. That leaves no exceptions. Paul also wrote:

Philippians 2:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
​

So here Paul tells us that “every knee” shall bow… and “every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. That means all souls will accept Jesus as Lord. Also notice… this is to the glory of God the Father.

So… how is God glorified if He fails every last bit of His creation? Satan will have successfully separated God from the vast majority of mankind. So God fails at saving the world… Satan wins by gaining the majority. That can’t glorify God.

Salvation is an individual matter. BILLIONS reject Jesus. They will pay the ETERNAL price as did the rich man in Luke 16. He died but was still alive in TORMENT in the FIRE. With NO way of escape.

 

[Stealth001]

Or the fish swallowed seaweed and 3 days trapped hopeless in it in the dark made him delirious. The style in which this was written isn't factual but more poetic like more of a dream than anything so trying to imply he died is inconclusive.

So... Jonah says he saw the mountains of the deep... but he really didn't. He was just "delirious"? lol

Was Jesus "delirious" about his death? Nope.

Just face it... Jonah died and cried out from the grave (the state of death) and God revived him to be spat out on dry land to carry on the mission.

 

[Stealth001]

Salvation is an individual matter. BILLIONS reject Jesus. They will pay the ETERNAL price as did the rich man in Luke 16. He died but was still alive in TORMENT in the FIRE. With NO way of escape.

You're glossing over way too much here bro. Billions reject Jesus, but Paul said that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord... TO THE GLORY of God the Father. That tells me... they can reject Him now... but one day all will accept Him and testify that He is their Lord. That includes the most vile human being on the plane to Pope Benedict.

Jesus states that those who reject Him will enter "everlasting punishment" (Grk. "aionos kolasis") which translates more accurately, "eternal correction". In other words... they face a correction that will correct them for eternity.

The rich man was still in "kolasis" (correction). But Paul states that every man, including the rich man, will be made alive in his own order. Even the rich man will one day bow his knee and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Also note the eschatological framework of the NT. First, the church is glorified and raised from the dead at Christ's second coming. Then we have the Millennium. After the Millennium we have the Great White Throne Judgment where those not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Then we see a New Heavens and a New Earth. Then we see the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven and the eternal age begins. However, we read something very provocative in Revelation 22:

Revelation 22 :1-2

King James Version (KJV)

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


​

Ummm... wait! The church is already glorified and the Great White Throne Judgment has already taken place. The New Jerusalem is down from Heaven and the eternal age has begun. I've yet to hear any ask... "Who are the "nations" (peoples) in need of healing???" The only group of people that this can speak to at this point eschatologically are... those in the lake of fire and brimstone. Please don't forget... "brimstone" was an incense used to purify. In other words... the people who are being purified by fire and brimstone.

Lastly, consider Christ's own teaching:

Luke 12:46-48

King James Version (KJV)

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


​

Now... if all are tortured forever... how can "many stripes" and "few stripes" be compared? Clearly this demands a limited duration of punishment that will ultimately come to an end (a "kolasis" or "correction"). Most throw away Christ's teaching here. But it's in perfect harmony with the reconciliatory passages of Scripture.

My point is... God wins. Sin and Satan will have won NOTHING.

Now that's good news! lol

 

[dollarsbill]

You're glossing over way too much here bro. Billions reject Jesus, but Paul said that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord... TO THE GLORY of God the Father.

But not unto salvation. Out of fear.

That tells me... they can reject Him now... but one day all will accept Him and testify that He is their Lord. That includes the most vile human being on the plane to Pope Benedict.

You really shouldn't bash Catholics. There are a lot of WONDERFUL Catholics. I am not Catholic.

Jesus states that those who reject Him will enter "everlasting punishment" (Grk. "aionos kolasis") which translates more accurately, "eternal correction". In other words... they face a correction that will correct them for eternity.

It means it's EVERLASTING.

The rich man was still in "kolasis" (correction). But Paul states that every man, including the rich man, will be made alive in his own order. Even the rich man will bow his knee and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Again, not unto salvation.

Also note the eschatological framework. First, the church is glorified and raised from the dead at Christ's second coming. Then we have the Millennium. After the Millennium we have the Great White Throne Judgment. Then we see a New Heavens and a New Earth. Then we see the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven and the eternal age begins. However, we read something very provocative in Revelation 22:

Revelation 22 :1-2

King James Version (KJV)

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.​

Back up a little.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
​

Ummm... wait! The church is already glorified and the Great White Throne Judgment has already taken place. The New Jerusalem is down from Heaven and the eternal age has begun. I've yet to hear any ask... "Who are the "nations" (peoples) in need of healing???" The only group of people that this can speak to at this point eschatologically are... those in the lake of fire and brimstone. Please don't forget... "brimstone" was an incense used to purify. In other words... the people who are being purified by fire and brimstone.

Lastly, consider Christ's own teaching:

Luke 12:46-48

King James Version (KJV)

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

​

Now... if all are tortured forever... how can "many stripes" and "few stripes" be compared? Clearly this demands a duration of punishment that will ultimately come to an end. Most throw away Christ's teaching here. But it's in perfect harmony with the reconciliatory passages of Scripture.

Is that suppose to assure us of salvation to all??? It doesn't even come close. And ALL who give false assurance to God's enemies of salvation will have to answer to God.

 

[Stealth001]

But not unto salvation. Out of fear.

So... your God gets "glory" out of forcing people to confess Him essentially at gunpoint? LOL

No... they bow the knee and confess with their tongues TO THE GLORY of God the Father. In other words... God is GLORIFIED through their bowing and confession.

Lastly, we have to define "salvation". Salvation is experiencing being saved from what? The corrective judgment of God. Therefore... even if one were to only spend a week in the lake of fire and brimstone... they were never "saved".

You really shouldn't bash Catholics. There are a lot of WONDERFUL Catholics. I am not Catholic.

I'm not bashing Catholics. lol

It means it's EVERLASTING.

In your heart you know it means more. Not to mention your adjective isn't being defined. "Everlasting" what??? Everlasting "kolasis" or "correction".

Again, not unto salvation.

I'm not saying that everyone is saved from God's corrective judgment.

Back up a little.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Is that suppose to assure us of salvation to all??? It doesn't even come close. And ALL who give false assurance to God's enemies of salvation will have to answer to God.

So you're saying that Jesus lied when He stated that some would have "many stripes" and others would have "few stripes"??? Hmmm...

Or... do you want to accept that Jesus was telling the truth and therefore Revelation 20:10 is clearly euphamism?

And bro... consider your tone. "God's enemies". LOL God laughs at the notion. He has no "enemies"... just rebellious children who are but gnats to Him when it comes to power. He can bring them to their knees at will.

 

[dollarsbill]

So... your God gets "glory" out of forcing people to confess Him essentially at gunpoint? LOL

No... they bow the knee and confess with their tongues TO THE GLORY of God the Father. In other words... God is GLORIFIED through their bowing and confession.

Lastly, we have to define "salvation". Salvation is experiencing being saved from what? The corrective judgment of God. Therefore... even if one were to only spend a week in the lake of fire and brimstone... they were never "saved".



I'm not bashing Catholics. lol



In your heart you know it means more. Not to mention your adjective isn't being defined. "Everlasting" what??? Everlasting "kolasis" or "correction".



I'm not saying that everyone is saved from God's corrective judgment.



So you're saying that Jesus lied when He stated that some would have "many stripes" and others would have "few stripes"??? Hmmm...

Or... do you want to accept that Jesus was telling the truth and therefore Revelation 20:10 is clearly euphamism?

Are you willing to accept responsibility for all who go to the ETERNAL Hell because they believe you?

 

[Stealth001]

Are you willing to accept responsibility for all who go to the ETERNAL Hell because they believe you?

Bro... the Bible states:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

​

It's God's will and desire to save all men. Am I in error if I believe He can do it???

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

​

God is the Saviour of all men, especiall we who believe. Therefore, I just accept it.

Here's the deal, many of those who go to Hell (whatever one believes about it) will go there because they rejected Christ and the Gospel. That's THEIR choice. But the vast majority of mankind that are religated to Hell because they never heard the Gospel. Out of those who do hear, far more people reject the notion of God over the idea of eternal torture (an evil worse than the Holcaust) than the notion that God justly punishes and corrects the soul. Please understand... no one truly "knows" beyond a doubt. That's why it's called "faith". We simply put our faith and trust in that which glorifies God and truly expresses His character. To some... they think God's character is one that would torture people forever... even those who never had a chance to hear. Yet others believe that God's character is one that would vaporize people out of existence after torments...even those who never had a chance to hear. Me... I'm inclined to believe that God knows how to purify the human soul. And I believe that it's through the cross of Jesus that God gains this leverage to deal with every soul. I'll also add... if a soul refuses to bow and confess that Jesus is Lord... if they continue to harbor rebellion and hatred against God... they will remain in the flames. So, if anyone burns forever... it's because they've chosen to and have resisted God even in the death. Remember... even David wrote that if he made his bed in hell (the grave, the state of death), God is there.

Here's an interesting verse...

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
​

Notice the torments of the wicked are "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb". Imagine with me... every time you approach the throne of Christ in eternity... off to the left you can see a fiery pit of blazing fire and brimstone. In it you can hear your lost loved one's screaming in agonies. And Jesus wants you to bow and worship Him... because that could have been you. How can you worship a God like that? A mother can hear her daughter who never heard the truth burning forever? A son can hear his father who never heard the truth burning forever? A sister can hear a brother who left Christianity over being abused in church burn forever? Every time she comes into Christ's presence?

No. That's not right. You know it. I know it.

Now... if we know that Hell is God's Hell. He created it for a purpose. And we know that through it God is working corrective punishment upon those we love, we can rejoice before Him, praying that they be reconciled to us soon.

God is love. Love holds no record of wrongs. Love does demand justice. Love doesn't torture.

 

[Stealth001]

Also, fear of Hell doesn't curb sin. Any pastor can testify to this. Loving God, and desiring to be conformed into the image of Jesus. Now, that curbs sin.

 

[Stealth001]

Imagine an infant spitting up on President Obama's suit... and as a result being sentenced to the electric chair. Is that just?

Now, imagine a human being whose nature is sinful... and an infinite God. Is frying a 16 year hold Hindu girl that never had the chance to really hear and understand Jesus without end really just???

 

[Stealth001]

Wow. God is all powerful but can't figure out how to save His creation? So he has to either torture the vast majority of all of them... or vaporize them. Hmmm... now He's all powerful... all knowing... and everywhere. And he chose to do this??? What's that truly tell us about him?

Ah... but IF God is just and has chosen to reconcile the entire creation through the cross of Christ... what glory!

I contend that if not for the cross of Jesus... all would be separated from God without end. However, it is because of the cross that God is justified in saving every last human soul that has ever graced our planet.

 

[Stealth001]

Love Has Come - Mark Schultz - Worship Video w/lyrics - YouTube

 

[dollarsbill]

ATTENTION Stealth001:

Hear ye the word of God:

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'