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Why is hell even necessary?

Exial

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here is a link that shows various theories about "are the heathen lost"

Destiny of the unevangelized: Are the heathen really lost?

4,6,8 are the ones I believe

Since they all have scripture backing them I guess as a Christian you could believe any of those theories and be biblically justified. But the truth is the truth, it doesn't care for our opinions. From my persepective it seems I could believe option no 2, which is all, including the unvangelized are saved. So that means I don't have to beleive in your god to get to heaven. Doesn't that make your god useless in getting to heaven?
 
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createdtoworship

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Since they all have scripture backing them I guess as a Christian you could believe any of those theories and be biblically justified. But the truth is the truth, it doesn't care for our opinions. From my persepective it seems I could believe option no 2, which is all, including the unvangelized are saved. So that means I don't have to beleive in your god to get to heaven. Doesn't that make your god useless in getting to heaven?

thats why I disagree with that option. Jesus said to repent and believe to get eternal life, time and time again. IF there is no repentance it doesn't matter what you believe. Universalists believe all is saved regardless of beliefs, and this is clearly been pointed wrong.
 
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Timothew

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thats why I disagree with that option. Jesus said to repent and believe to get eternal life, time and time again. IF there is no repentance it doesn't matter what you believe. Universalists believe all is saved regardless of beliefs, and this is clearly been pointed wrong.
I agree.
 
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Hakan101

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Hearsay. The resurrection is accepted by faith, not by knowledge.

There are facts that support the resurrection. It is nothing that cannot be doubted, but it makes a very convincing case. I accepted Jesus and his resurrection by faith, and two years later I learned of these facts. They strengthened my faith.
 
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elman

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There are facts that support the resurrection. It is nothing that cannot be doubted, but it makes a very convincing case. I accepted Jesus and his resurrection by faith, and two years later I learned of these facts. They strengthened my faith.
There are no facts that prove the resurrection. I believe Jesus was raised from the dead. I do not have proof that He did.
 
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elman

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IF no history is fact then I guess your right, because He was a historian.

Are you suggesting Josephus said the resurrection was fact? I don't think so. My saying Josephus does not prove the resurrection is fact has nothing to do with there being no facts in history. Have you read what Josephus wrote?
This comes from your own link.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is part of the Jesus and history series of articles.


A Roman portrait bust said to be of Josephus[1]Josephus (c.37 – 100, also known as Yosef ben Matityahu, Hebrew יוסף בן מתתיהו, Joseph son of Matthias) was a renowned 1st-century Jewish historian. Despite being a Roman apologist, his writings are considered authoritative and provide an important historical and cultural background for the era described in the New Testament. Books 18 to 20 of the Antiquities are the most important in this regard.[2] Josephus was fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek.

Josephus writes of a Jewish sect led by James the Just, whom he calls the brother of Jesus. Josephus' history includes sections on John the Baptist, the High Priest Annas, Pontius Pilate, and Jesus called the Messiah.

A third passage, the famous Testimonium Flavianum found in the Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64, in its current form summarizes the ministry and death of Jesus; but the authenticity of this passage remains contested by many scholars, and has been the topic of ongoing debate since the 17th century. The most widely held current scholarly opinion is that the Testimonium Flavianum is partially authentic; but that those words and phrases that correspond with standard Christian formulae are additions from a Christian copyist.[3][4]

In those parts of the Testimonium that are commonly regarded as authentic, Josephus describes Jesus as a teacher and miracle worker, attracting a large following who revered him after his death; but, other than James, Josephus names none of the founders of the Church such as St. Paul, St.Peter or any of the Twelve Apostles, nor does he refer to basic Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation or the Atonement. This led William Whiston to suggest that Josephus may have been an Ebionite Christian.[5]

Nothing there about Josephus proving the resurrection as fact.
 
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createdtoworship

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Are you suggesting Josephus said the resurrection was fact? I don't think so. My saying Josephus does not prove the resurrection is fact has nothing to do with there being no facts in history. Have you read what Josephus wrote?
This comes from your own link.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is part of the Jesus and history series of articles.


A Roman portrait bust said to be of Josephus[1]Josephus (c.37 – 100, also known as Yosef ben Matityahu, Hebrew יוסף בן מתתיהו, Joseph son of Matthias) was a renowned 1st-century Jewish historian. Despite being a Roman apologist, his writings are considered authoritative and provide an important historical and cultural background for the era described in the New Testament. Books 18 to 20 of the Antiquities are the most important in this regard.[2] Josephus was fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek.

Josephus writes of a Jewish sect led by James the Just, whom he calls the brother of Jesus. Josephus' history includes sections on John the Baptist, the High Priest Annas, Pontius Pilate, and Jesus called the Messiah.

A third passage, the famous Testimonium Flavianum found in the Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64, in its current form summarizes the ministry and death of Jesus; but the authenticity of this passage remains contested by many scholars, and has been the topic of ongoing debate since the 17th century. The most widely held current scholarly opinion is that the Testimonium Flavianum is partially authentic; but that those words and phrases that correspond with standard Christian formulae are additions from a Christian copyist.[3][4]

In those parts of the Testimonium that are commonly regarded as authentic, Josephus describes Jesus as a teacher and miracle worker, attracting a large following who revered him after his death; but, other than James, Josephus names none of the founders of the Church such as St. Paul, St.Peter or any of the Twelve Apostles, nor does he refer to basic Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation or the Atonement. This led William Whiston to suggest that Josephus may have been an Ebionite Christian.[5]

Nothing there about Josephus proving the resurrection as fact.

you are right about josephus, it was a forgery when He mentions the resurrection. I didn't know.

but there are others...

the earliest Jewish arguments against Christianity admit the empty tomb. The Toledoth Jesu, a compilation of early Jewish writings, acknowledges this. Further, we have a record of a second century debate between a Christian and a Jew, in which a reference is made to the fact that the Jews claim the body was stolen. So it is pretty well established that the early Jews admitted the empty tomb.
Why is this important? Remember that the Jews were opposed to Christianity. In acknowledging the empty tomb, they were admitting the reality of a fact that was certainly not in their favor. So why would they admit that the tomb was empty unless the evidence was too strong to be denied?

Third, the empty tomb account in the gospel of Mark is based upon a source that originated within seven years of the event it narrates. This places the evidence for the empty tomb too early to be legendary, and makes it much more likely that it is accurate. If the empty tomb wasn't real:
The Jewish authorities would have exposed the whole affair. The quickest and surest answer to the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus would have been simply to point to his grave on the hillside.

Fourth, the empty tomb is supported by the historical reliability of the burial story. NT scholars agree that the burial story is one of the best established facts about Jesus. One reason for this is because of the inclusion of Joseph of Arimethea as the one who buried Christ. You see, Joseph was a member of the Jewish Sanhedrein, a sort of Jewish supreme court. People on this ruling class were simply too well known for fictitious stories about them to be pulled off in this way. This would have exposed the Christians as fraud's. So they couldn't have circulated a story about him burying Jesus unless it was true. This was prophesied 500 years at least in advance....in Isaiah 53:9 and fulfilled Matthew 27:57-60

Fifth, Jesus' tomb was never venerated as a shrine.

Sixth, Mark's account of the empty tomb is simple and shows no signs of legendary development.

Seventh, the tomb was discovered empty by women. Why is this important? Because the testimony of women in 1st century Jewish culture was considered worthless. If the empty tomb story were a legend, then it is most likely that the male disciples would have been made the first to discover the empty tomb.

I'm sure you've heard of the various theories used to explain away the empty tomb, such as that the body was stolen. For example, the Jews or Romans had no motive to steal the body--they wanted to suppress Christianity, not encourage it by providing it with an empty tomb. The disciples would have had no motive, either. Because of their preaching on the resurrection, they were beaten, killed, and persecuted. Why would they go through all of this for a deliberate lie?

Resurrection Appearances
There is the evidence that Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ. We have the testimony of the original disciples themselves that they saw Jesus alive again.

Now, just because the disciples think they saw Jesus doesn't mean that they really did. There are three possible alternatives:

1. They were lying
2. They hallucinated
3. They really saw the risen Christ

Which of these is most likely? Were they lying? On this view, the disciples knew that Jesus had not really risen, but they made up this story about the resurrection. But then why did 10 of the disciples willingly die as martyrs for their belief in the resurrection?

The hallucination theory is untenable because it cannot explain the physical nature of the appearances. The disciples record eating and drinking with Jesus, as well as touching him. This cannot be done with hallucinations. Further, the hallucination theory cannot explain the conversion of Paul, three years later. Was Paul, the persecutor of Christians, so hoping to see the resurrected Jesus that his mind invented an appearance as well? And perhaps most significantly, the hallucination theory cannot even deal with the evidence for the empty tomb.

Since the disciples could not have been lying or hallucinating, we have only one possible explanation left: the disciples believed that they had seen the risen Jesus because they really had seen the risen Jesus.

Origin of the Christian Faith
Finally, the existence of the Christian church is strong proof for the resurrection. Why is this? Because even the most skeptical NT scholars admit that the disciples at least believed that Jesus was raised from the grave. But how can we explain the origin of that belief? There are three possible causes: Christian influences, pagan influences, or Jewish influences.

Could it have been Christian influences? Craig writes, "Since the belief in the resurrection was itself the foundation for Christianity, it cannot be explained as the later product of Christianity." Further, as we saw, if the disciples made it up, then they were frauds and liars--alternatives we have shown to be false.

But what about pagan influences? Isn't it often pointed out that there were many myths of dying and rising savior gods at the time of Christianity? Couldn't the disciples have been deluded by those myths and copied them into their own teaching on the resurrection of Christ? First, it has been shown that these mystery religious had no major influence in Palestine in the 1st century. Second, most of the sources which contain parallels originated after Christianity was established.

Jewish influences cannot explain the belief in the resurrection, either. 1st century Judaism had no conception of a single individual rising from the dead in the middle of history. Their concept was always that everybody would be raised together at the end of time. So the idea of one individual rising in the middle of history was foreign to them.

So we see that if the resurrection did not happen, there is no plausible way to account for the origin of the Christian faith. We would be left with a third inexplicable mystery.

more info on the resurrection proofs
http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html
 
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addo

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I know what you're trying to say. You're saying we send ourselves to hell through our choices. I'm saying that's stupid. My choice is to not believe what there is no reason to believe. In other words, I choose to not have faith. The Bible says that faith is the evidence of things hoped for, and the belief in things not seen. In other words, faith is believing in something you really want to be true even though there is no evidence for it. Because I care about whether my view of the world accurately reflects reality, I choose to believe things for which there is evidence (i.e. a reason to believe)
Here is a good article which I want to share with you:

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html
 
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Hakan101

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There are no facts that prove the resurrection. I believe Jesus was raised from the dead. I do not have proof that He did.

I didn't say there were facts that proved the resurrection. I explicitly said there were not, that these facts can be doubted of relating to a resurrection. What I said is there are facts that support his resurrection, that show it is not something that must be taken entirely on faith and nothing else. I accepted Jesus out of faith, and when I learned of these facts, it was by faith that I decided they support the resurrection, rather than something like a hallucination or a conspiracy, etc.
 
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elman

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you are right about josephus, it was a forgery when He mentions the resurrection. I didn't know.

but there are others...

the earliest Jewish arguments against Christianity admit the empty tomb. The Toledoth Jesu, a compilation of early Jewish writings, acknowledges this. Further, we have a record of a second century debate between a Christian and a Jew, in which a reference is made to the fact that the Jews claim the body was stolen. So it is pretty well established that the early Jews admitted the empty tomb.
Why is this important? Remember that the Jews were opposed to Christianity. In acknowledging the empty tomb, they were admitting the reality of a fact that was certainly not in their favor. So why would they admit that the tomb was empty unless the evidence was too strong to be denied?

Third, the empty tomb account in the gospel of Mark is based upon a source that originated within seven years of the event it narrates. This places the evidence for the empty tomb too early to be legendary, and makes it much more likely that it is accurate. If the empty tomb wasn't real:
The Jewish authorities would have exposed the whole affair. The quickest and surest answer to the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus would have been simply to point to his grave on the hillside.

Fourth, the empty tomb is supported by the historical reliability of the burial story. NT scholars agree that the burial story is one of the best established facts about Jesus. One reason for this is because of the inclusion of Joseph of Arimethea as the one who buried Christ. You see, Joseph was a member of the Jewish Sanhedrein, a sort of Jewish supreme court. People on this ruling class were simply too well known for fictitious stories about them to be pulled off in this way. This would have exposed the Christians as fraud's. So they couldn't have circulated a story about him burying Jesus unless it was true. This was prophesied 500 years at least in advance....in Isaiah 53:9 and fulfilled Matthew 27:57-60

Fifth, Jesus' tomb was never venerated as a shrine.

Sixth, Mark's account of the empty tomb is simple and shows no signs of legendary development.

Seventh, the tomb was discovered empty by women. Why is this important? Because the testimony of women in 1st century Jewish culture was considered worthless. If the empty tomb story were a legend, then it is most likely that the male disciples would have been made the first to discover the empty tomb.

I'm sure you've heard of the various theories used to explain away the empty tomb, such as that the body was stolen. For example, the Jews or Romans had no motive to steal the body--they wanted to suppress Christianity, not encourage it by providing it with an empty tomb. The disciples would have had no motive, either. Because of their preaching on the resurrection, they were beaten, killed, and persecuted. Why would they go through all of this for a deliberate lie?

Resurrection Appearances
There is the evidence that Jesus' disciples had real experiences with one whom they believed was the risen Christ. We have the testimony of the original disciples themselves that they saw Jesus alive again.

Now, just because the disciples think they saw Jesus doesn't mean that they really did. There are three possible alternatives:

1. They were lying
2. They hallucinated
3. They really saw the risen Christ

Which of these is most likely? Were they lying? On this view, the disciples knew that Jesus had not really risen, but they made up this story about the resurrection. But then why did 10 of the disciples willingly die as martyrs for their belief in the resurrection?

The hallucination theory is untenable because it cannot explain the physical nature of the appearances. The disciples record eating and drinking with Jesus, as well as touching him. This cannot be done with hallucinations. Further, the hallucination theory cannot explain the conversion of Paul, three years later. Was Paul, the persecutor of Christians, so hoping to see the resurrected Jesus that his mind invented an appearance as well? And perhaps most significantly, the hallucination theory cannot even deal with the evidence for the empty tomb.

Since the disciples could not have been lying or hallucinating, we have only one possible explanation left: the disciples believed that they had seen the risen Jesus because they really had seen the risen Jesus.

Origin of the Christian Faith
Finally, the existence of the Christian church is strong proof for the resurrection. Why is this? Because even the most skeptical NT scholars admit that the disciples at least believed that Jesus was raised from the grave. But how can we explain the origin of that belief? There are three possible causes: Christian influences, pagan influences, or Jewish influences.

Could it have been Christian influences? Craig writes, "Since the belief in the resurrection was itself the foundation for Christianity, it cannot be explained as the later product of Christianity." Further, as we saw, if the disciples made it up, then they were frauds and liars--alternatives we have shown to be false.

But what about pagan influences? Isn't it often pointed out that there were many myths of dying and rising savior gods at the time of Christianity? Couldn't the disciples have been deluded by those myths and copied them into their own teaching on the resurrection of Christ? First, it has been shown that these mystery religious had no major influence in Palestine in the 1st century. Second, most of the sources which contain parallels originated after Christianity was established.

Jewish influences cannot explain the belief in the resurrection, either. 1st century Judaism had no conception of a single individual rising from the dead in the middle of history. Their concept was always that everybody would be raised together at the end of time. So the idea of one individual rising in the middle of history was foreign to them.

So we see that if the resurrection did not happen, there is no plausible way to account for the origin of the Christian faith. We would be left with a third inexplicable mystery.

more info on the resurrection proofs
Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
I believe Jesus was resurrected. I do not believe it is proven fact. It is a matter of faith.
 
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createdtoworship

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I believe Jesus was resurrected. I do not believe it is proven fact. It is a matter of faith.

regardless whither it's factual there is historicity to the resurrection.
 
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