Why is hell even necessary?

[createdtoworship]

No you cannot prove God even exists. If you cannot prove that you cannot prove God was raised from the dead.

the arguments were not about Christ's diety but about His physical resurrection

 

[Exial]

God doesn't send anyone there. They skip and dance there on their own.

Ok, I'm an athiest but lets assume hell exists.

I die unsaved, but I die with the wish that after death "I don't want to go to hell, so I'm not going"

So my question to you is

Is god going to still send me to hell for my unbelief, even after I have chosen not to go?

Of course he is. Your idea that anybody would chose willingly to go to a place of enternal torture is absouletly ridiculous.

 

[Timothew]

Ok, I'm an athiest but lets assume hell exists.

I think too many Christians ASSUME hell exists, without ever checking the bible to see if it actually exists. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. If this is true, how could the wages of sin be to spend eternity conscious in the fire pit of hell?

 

[Texan40]

Ok, I'm an athiest but lets assume hell exists.

I die unsaved, but I die with the wish that after death "I don't want to go to hell, so I'm not going"

So my question to you is

Is god going to still send me to hell for my unbelief, even after I have chosen not to go?

Of course he is. Your idea that anybody would chose willingly to go to a place of enternal torture is absouletly ridiculous.

Those whose consequence is hell will have put themselves there by their actions not be "sent" there by God. We all have the power to choose. If one has chosen to mock God and disdain His children then I would imagine some would very much like for Him not to exist nor the consequence of their actions be reaped.

 

[elman]

the arguments were not about Christ's diety but about His physical resurrection

That is also a matter of faith and not provable as fact.

 

[Exial]

Those whose consequence is hell will have put themselves there by their actions not be "sent" there by God.

The mere action of unbelief is not worthy of condemnation to hell. Would you condem your own children to hell if they chose not to accept you as a parent? The relationship between a parent/young child and god/humans is a good analogy, both feature a party with ultimate authority over the other and who absolute trust is supposed to be placed. Most Christians I speak to in person always seem rather focused on the "nice" elements of their faith. What some do not see is their god has a very dark and cruel side.

The way I've seen it since a young age and with other gods of other faiths is that the diety always seems to bear the behavioral characteristics of the humans they supposedly created.

We all have the power to choose.

No, not everybody does.

What of those who have never heard of Christ or the bible?
What of those brought up in families with a different religion?
Those who died before they could even comprehend the very concept of god?

If one has chosen to mock God and disdain His children then I would imagine some would very much like for Him not to exist nor the consequence of their actions be reaped.

Thats a very big if.

Its not a matter of whether I would like or not like for god to exist. He either does or he doesn't. What I, you or anybody else likes is irrelevant.

I do not accept your biblical morales for the same reason you do not accept the qurans version of morals. I think I* can handle the responsiblity of deciding right and wrong for myself. I don't have to be told that killing, raping and stealing is wrong. Nor working on the sabbath.

*On that point, considering their are thousands of different demonitations and Christians often seem to follow different laws more strictly than others. Seems you decide your morals for yourself also.

For instance,

Matthew 5:18

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I would consider the Ten Commandments to fall under any biblical definition of the word law.

exodus 20:2-20:17

8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9For six days you shall labour and do all your work. 10But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

I wonder, how many Christians keep the Sabbath holy and do no work or allow their family to work?

EXODUS 31:15-17

"Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

I wonder how many Christians kill others for working on the sabbath?

I've just demonstrated that Christians, like most other people picks and chooses their own morales to follow, no matter what kind of authority is telling them to obey.

 

[Exial]

I think too many Christians ASSUME hell exists, without ever checking the bible to see if it actually exists. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. If this is true, how could the wages of sin be to spend eternity conscious in the fire pit of hell?

I see your Romans 6:23 and raise you a Revelation 14:9-11

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

So where does this leave us?

 

[Timothew]

I see your Romans 6:23 and raise you a Revelation 14:9-11

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

So where does this leave us?

Well, I quoted Romans, a letter of theology and you quoted The Apocalypse of John, a letter cram packed full of symbolism. Also, your passage is referring to those who worship the beast and its image, not every person who ever died since Adam. You also missed the harvest of the earth in the next section.

But if you wish, this leaves us tied, 1:1.

Round 2!
John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This doesn't say whoever believe in him shall not be tormented in fire for all eternity, but will have eternal life.

Why do you want eternal torment to be true anyway? Is it because you want the Christians to have a doctrine that is easy to scorn?

 

[SkyWriting]

That is also a matter of faith and not provable as fact.

Science cannot prove any historical events as fact.

Proving the resurrection falls under legal guidelines for the court.
Read New Evidence that Demands a Verdict-JMM

 

[SkyWriting]

The mere action of unbelief is not worthy of condemnation to hell. Would you condem your own children to hell if they chose not to accept you as a parent? .....

But they did and they are.


"Fortunately" for us.........
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[razeontherock]

The mere action of unbelief is not worthy of condemnation to hell.

And your opinion on the matter equals what, exactly?

"without Faith it is impossible to please G-d."

Don't ask me to defend that, I can't. I can't say I understand it much, either. As well as I know G-d, even in my greatest moments of clarity I've never gotten revelation specific to this one point.

It's pretty simple to accept it as true though, and it is a basic tenet.

What of those who have never heard of Christ or the bible?
What of those brought up in families with a different religion?
Those who died before they could even comprehend the very concept of god?

If your questions were sincere, and came from heart that didn't think it knows everything already, you could be very surprised by the answers you would get.

 

[createdtoworship]

That is also a matter of faith and not provable as fact.

did you even watch the vid?

There are many points to contend with before shoving this as non provable. It is intellectually dishonest to say it is not provable before listening to the arguments.

 

[Exial]

And your opinion on the matter equals what, exactly?

It equals the same as your opinion on the matter. I think its fair to say we can both have a equal say on the matter of morals as civilized adults?

"without Faith it is impossible to please G-d."

Don't ask me to defend that, I can't. I can't say I understand it much, either. As well as I know G-d, even in my greatest moments of clarity I've never gotten revelation specific to this one point.

You should not profess what you cannot defend

It's pretty simple to accept it as true though, and it is a basic tenet

I'm having a very difficult time accepting that premise as true.

If your questions were sincere, and came from heart that didn't think it knows everything already, you could be very surprised by the answers you would get.

You don't know me at all yet you are willing to make that kind of judgement about me? How very christlike of you.

I wonder if you resorted to that to affirm your dodge of the questions which you made no attempt to answer. Would you like me to say "pretty please?" at the end of every question to satisty you?

So, what of these people? Has god abandoned them to oblivion or hell?

 

[Exial]

But they did and they are.


"Fortunately" for us.........
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I'm afraid I don't follow.

 

[createdtoworship]

What of those who have never heard of Christ or the bible?
What of those brought up in families with a different religion?
Those who died before they could even comprehend the very concept of god?

here is a link that shows various theories about "are the heathen lost"

Destiny of the unevangelized: Are the heathen really lost?

4,6,8 are the ones I believe

 

[sk8Joyful]

Why is hell even necessary?

Why would a loving God punish the majority of people
for eternity, ETERNITY! for the sin of not accepting His love?

Hell is necessary for those souls who don't!!, WANT to enjoy Heaven.

God said: 'ok, evidently I'll have to Create yet another place,
sigh. - WHY don't those fools, just simply ACCEPT HEAVEN's LOVE'

Don't tell me that we send ourselves to hell. We don't.
I'm choosing right now not to go.

No, see - 'choosing not to go to hell' <- focuses on the WRONG Target.

Instead you wanna reframe your Intentions: "I'm choosing right now to be/live in Heaven ".

But according to the Bible, I'm going anyway.
God
becomes vengeful, unloving, and unmerciful.

Or is there something I'm missing?

Finally you're Admitting the truth! what truth?

That focused on hell, you are missing-OUT
on
*EVERY-blessing* God so graciously you created for...

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, I quoted Romans, a letter of theology and you quoted The Apocalypse of John, a letter cram packed full of symbolism. Also, your passage is referring to those who worship the beast and its image, not every person who ever died since Adam. You also missed the harvest of the earth in the next section.

But if you wish, this leaves us tied, 1:1.

Round 2!
John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This doesn't say whoever believe in him shall not be tormented in fire for all eternity, but will have eternal life.

Why do you want eternal torment to be true anyway? Is it because you want the Christians to have a doctrine that is easy to scorn?

if you keep reading in john 3 verse 18-21 it says that they are condemned when they love darkness.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

later on it is mentioned what the condemnation is....the lake of fire.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:12-15

 

[Timothew]

if you keep reading in john 3 verse 18-21 it says that they are condemned when they love darkness.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

later on it is mentioned what the condemnation is....the lake of fire.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:12-15

You are correct. "later on it is mentioned what the condemnation is....the lake of fire." And John tells us what he means by the lake of fire, it is the second death. You should have bolded that part as well. Then you wouldn't have read right past it.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:12-15

Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death. Being cast into the lake of fire is not eternal torment. This is according to John, the writer of the book of Revelation.

 

[elman]

did you even watch the vid?

There are many points to contend with before shoving this as non provable. It is intellectually dishonest to say it is not provable before listening to the arguments.

No it is not. It cannot be proven as fact that Jesus ever existed.

 

[createdtoworship]

No it is not. It cannot be proven as fact that Jesus ever existed.

Josephus was a non christian Historian and makes mention of Jesus and details of his ministry.