Why is Contraception Considered Morally Acceptable?

[patricius79]

Because you've provided no support for the assertion other than restating it over and over and over. And over.

Please show that. I keep reading assertions, but then when I question you about your assertions you seem to decline to answer my questions.

I think that contraceptives clearly place a barrier within the interpersonal sharing of sex, because they allow a couple to seek sexual pleasure without respecting the woman's natural fertility cycle (and the man's fertility), and the procreative meaning of sex.

And asking pointless questions isn't going to change that fact.

I think we both have to try to answer the other person's questions.

I can, but I won't. Thanks for asking, though.

Are you going to get around to answering any of my questions? Is this really the best you have to support your faith?

Thanks for acknowledging that you have a belief system about sexual morality. May I ask why won't you talk about it, if your position is strong?

I know you didn't acknowledge any objective sexual morality, even as to rape. Could you explain that more? It seems like one would never see contraception as wrong if they don't believe in any absolute moral laws.

It seems fair that we would both have to explain our beliefs. If you want to really dialogue, that would be necessary.

I think that when people want to only question others and negate their beliefs, it is usually because their own belief system is questionable.

 

[Cearbhall]

Are you saying that contraception is not important?

I predicted that you would ask this question in response to that sentence of mine. Whenever someone says something like that, you manage to twist what we mean when we say that it's insignificant or unimportant, so I regretted it as soon as I said it. It'd be greatly appreciated if you would stop. I think we're all pretty clear when we say that it's insignificant in the sense that it doesn't harm the purity or intimacy of the act, as you suggest that it does. We're responding to your claims, after all. Yet you waste our time and keep the conversation from moving forward by playing dumb. At this point, after seeing you do it so many times, I have to assume that it's intentional. I can't imagine that there's actually a single doubt in your mind at this point that I think contraception is very important if a couple wants to avoid pregnancy.

 

[KCfromNC]

Please show that.

Not my job to make your case for you. If you can't point out where you've provided anything to back up your assertions you can't blame anyone but yourself.

I keep reading assertions, but then when I question you about your assertions you seem to decline to answer my questions.

Please show that.

I think that contraceptives clearly place a barrier within the interpersonal sharing of sex, because they allow a couple to seek sexual pleasure without respecting the woman's natural fertility cycle (and the man's fertility), and the procreative meaning of sex.

And I think you're wrong. Now what?

Thanks for acknowledging that you have a belief system about sexual morality. May I ask why won't you talk about it, if your position is strong?

You just did. And you have several times before, and I've consistently given the same answer. Go back and review and ask any questions you might have about those answers.

I know you didn't acknowledge any objective sexual morality, even as to rape. Could you explain that more?

I already answered that. Did you specifically find anything lacking in the answer? Did you have problems understanding it?

It seems like one would never see contraception as wrong if they don't believe in any absolute moral laws.

It doesn't seem so to me. Why do you think that only people who believe in absolute or objective morality can find things wrong?

It seems fair that we would both have to explain our beliefs. If you want to really dialogue, that would be necessary.

I think that when people want to only question others and negate their beliefs, it is usually because their own belief system is questionable.

Could be. Or it could be that people get tired of constantly answering questions while someone who claims to want to have a dialogue never answers any posed to them.

 

[KCfromNC]

I predicted that you would ask this question in response to that sentence of mine. Whenever someone says something like that, you manage to twist what we mean

Oh right. Add this to the many reasons why answering the endless stream of leading questions is pointless.

 

[patricius79]

I predicted that you would ask this question in response to that sentence of mine. Whenever someone says something like that, you manage to twist what we mean when we say that it's insignificant or unimportant, so I regretted it as soon as I said it. It'd be greatly appreciated if you would stop. I think we're all pretty clear when we say that it's insignificant in the sense that it doesn't harm the purity or intimacy of the act, as you suggest that it does. We're responding to your claims, after all. Yet you waste our time and keep the conversation from moving forward by playing dumb. At this point, after seeing you do it so many times, I have to assume that it's intentional. I can't imagine that there's actually a single doubt in your mind at this point that I think contraception is very important if a couple wants to avoid pregnancy.

Hi Cearbhall,

Good morning.

I don't see how I twisted anything. I just asked you a question to clarify your meaning.

Clearly, now, you mean that contraception is very important and good as a means of avoiding pregnancy, but not at all a barrier to the purity or intimacy of sex.

I also indicated that married couples who cannot reproduce can still have a meaningful sex life, which is something I believe you had indicated.

What I don't understand is why some people--perhaps not you--seem to believe that sex is almost absolutely important to relationships, while at the same time indicating that the procreation of new persons is almost absolutely not important to relationships. There seems to be something out of balance. It seems like people are valuing sexual pleasure much more than the gift of new life.

Moreover, I don't understand why contraception is claimed to be be so good, and also to have no bad uses. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems to me like most physical things that can be used for good can also be used for evil, even when there is consent.

 

[patricius79]

Not my job to make your case for you.

I didn't ask you to make my case for me.

If you can't point out where you've provided anything to back up your assertions you can't blame anyone but yourself.


Please show that.



And I think you're wrong. Now what?



You just did. And you have several times before, and I've consistently given the same answer. Go back and review and ask any questions you might have about those answers.



I already answered that. Did you specifically find anything lacking in the answer? Did you have problems understanding it?



It doesn't seem so to me. Why do you think that only people who believe in absolute or objective morality can find things wrong?



Could be. Or it could be that people get tired of constantly answering questions while someone who claims to want to have a dialogue never answers any posed to them.

I did answer your question. You asked how contraception created a barrier to the interpersonal sharing of sex. I said:

"I think that contraceptives clearly place a barrier within the interpersonal sharing of sex, because they allow a couple to seek sexual pleasure without respecting the woman's natural fertility cycle (and the man's fertility), and the procreative meaning of sex."

So I did answer your question. You just didn't agree with it, which is why you said "I think you're wrong". But there was no explanation from you as to why.

I'm not seeing answers to my questions in your post here.

I want both of us to try to answer the other persons questions, so that there is real dialogue, rather than one side asking all the questions and then negating the answers, without providing evidence or answering questions themselves.

In answer to your question, no, **I don't I don't remember or understand your belief system about sexual morality/immorality. Please explain what you believe is sexually wrong and why.**

 

[KCfromNC]

I didn't ask you to make my case for me.

You asked me to prove you never posted something - how would I possibly do that without repeating everything you've written?

I did answer your question.

Not true. You've dodged many of them. See posts 588 and 591 for examples.

You didn't agree with my answer, which is why you said "I think you're wrong", but didn't explain why.

Which means I gave just as much justification as you did. As you are discovering, random assertions aren't particularly interesting, which is why I don't find much of what you have to say on the subject convincing in the least.

I'm not seeing answers to my questions in your post here.

Which questions haven't I answered?

I want both of us to try to answer the other persons questions, so that there is real dialogue, rather than one side asking all the questions and then negating the answers, without providing evidence or answering questions themselves.

Then you should stop behaving in those ways. Nothing stopping you except for yourself.

In answer to your question, no, I don't I don't remember or understand your belief system about sexual morality. Please explain it.

Weird, considering you already responded to my comments on some aspects of it. If this question is really vital to your well being you'll be able to find the post (and your reply). I imagine you have better things to do, though, since the question is irrelevant to the issue of you being able to provide any sort of justification for your claims.

 

[quatona]

What I don't understand is why some people--perhaps not you--seem to believe that sex is almost absolutely important to relationships, while at the same time indicating that the procreation of new persons is almost absolutely not important to relationships.

Who believes this? Who has expressed this belief? I must have missed that.
But even if there were a person holding this belief - how does the fact that you don´t understand it support the idea that it is immoral?

Moreover, I don't understand why contraception is claimed to be be so good, and also to have no bad uses. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems to me like most physical things that can be used for good can also be used for evil, even when there is consent.

And that´s a good reason to call the use of such physical things categorically "immoral"?

 

[patricius79]

You asked me to prove you never posted something - how would I possibly do that without repeating everything you've written?

Hi KC,

If you make a lot of negations, it's reasonable to ask you to back them up.

Not true. You've dodged many of them. See posts 588 and 591 for examples.

I think you've dodged many questions. As to post 591, I think I've been clear that there is no explicit Biblical condemnation of contraception, excepting perhaps the sin of Onan. The same is true of marital rape. But both are condemned by reason and by the Catholic Church, which is the source of the N.T. Canon, which is not in Scripture either.

Which means I gave just as much justification as you did. As you are discovering, random assertions aren't particularly interesting, which is why I don't find much of what you have to say on the subject convincing in the least.

That is also how I feel about your assertions.

Which questions haven't I answered?

For starters: is rape always wrong? Another question which you have declined to answer repeatedly: would you prefer to live in a Christian world or an Islamic world?

(Obviously there would be more Christians in this country and in the world if Christians weren't contracepting. Before 1930 all the Protestant groups agreed with the Catholic Church about contraceptoin)

Then you should stop behaving in those ways. Nothing stopping you except for yourself.

I think it would be good if you answer the questions I pose, also.

Weird, considering you already responded to my comments on some aspects of it. If this question is really vital to your well being you'll be able to find the post (and your reply). I imagine you have better things to do, though, since the question is irrelevant to the issue of you being able to provide any sort of justification for your claims.

Your position seems very evasive when I ask about your belief system as to sexual morality. If you can explain more about it, I think that would be good.

What, for example, do you believe the purpose of sex is?

 

[patricius79]

Who believes this? Who has expressed this belief? I must have missed that.
But even if there were a person holding this belief - how does the fact that you don´t understand it support the idea that it is immoral?



And that´s a good reason to call the use of such physical things categorically "immoral"?

What do you think makes something sexually immoral?

I will try to answer one question for every question that you answer, assuming that both of us have the time and want to do so. (I can't respond to everyone all the time, especially since I don't know much). In answer to your first question, nobody has explicitly said it. But while we've had many people talk about how good contraception is, very few on the pro-contraceptive side--if any, unless I just can't recall--have talked about how good it is to welcome new life into the world, how wonderful babies are, how having a child bonds a couple more deeply, or about the negative aspects of contraception, etc.

Again, I will not keep answering your questions unless you answer mine also.

This is a page for dialogue about views on contraception.

 

[quatona]

What do you think makes something sexually immoral?

"Immoral" is part of your terminology and your worldview, not of mine. That´s why I have repeatedly asked you to explain your use of this term to me.
You will have to understand that I am not able to explain your worldview or your terminology to you, or to explain myself from within your worldview and based on a terminology that isn´t mine.

I will try to answer one question for every question that you answer, assuming that both of us have the time and want to do so. (I can't respond to everyone all the time, especially since I don't know much). In answer to your first question, nobody has explicitly said it. But while we've had many people talk about how good contraception is, very few on the pro-contraceptive side--if any, unless I just can't recall--have talked about how good it is to welcome new life into the world, how wonderful babies are, or about the negative aspects of contraception.

There can be many reasons for that - most of which do not support your interpretation.

Again, I will not keep answering your questions unless you answer mine also.

This is a page for dialogue about views on contraception, not for one-sided posturing.

Well, you are the guy who keeps making assertions concerning the "morality" or "immorality" of contraception. So you can be expected to defend them.
A dialogue consists not of a tit (randomly asked questions) for tat (questions to defend assertions regarding the topic).

I am aware that your script entirely depends on attacking a counterposition in order to distract from the fact that you can´t or don´t want to defend your assertive claims - but since I don´t hold any of the counterpositions you´d like to tackle, I am afraid I am the wrong person to play that game with.
So you´ll have to either defend your assertions or leave them as unsupported as you have done so far.

 

[quatona]

What, for example, do you believe the purpose of sex is?

I am not sure I understand your question correctly. I am not sure I know what you mean when saying "purpose".
As far as I can tell, sex has different purposes to different people (and often even different purposes to the same persons, depending on the situation). E.g. it´s pretty safe to say that when using contraception procreation isn´t the purpose people have sex for. OTOH, I know couples who are so desperately seeking to have a baby that procreation has become the only purpose when they have sex.
So, are you asking what I personally get out of sex and what my purpose is in having it?
Or are you using "purpose" in a different way that you would like to explain before we can discuss it?

 

[DaisyDay]

I predicted that you would ask this question in response to that sentence of mine. Whenever someone says something like that, you manage to twist what we mean when we say that it's insignificant or unimportant, so I regretted it as soon as I said it. It'd be greatly appreciated if you would stop. I think we're all pretty clear when we say that it's insignificant in the sense that it doesn't harm the purity or intimacy of the act, as you suggest that it does. We're responding to your claims, after all. Yet you waste our time and keep the conversation from moving forward by playing dumb. At this point, after seeing you do it so many times, I have to assume that it's intentional. I can't imagine that there's actually a single doubt in your mind at this point that I think contraception is very important if a couple wants to avoid pregnancy.

I found it disingenuous that he would ask what we think then dismiss our subjective experiences out of hand.

 

[patricius79]

"Immoral" is part of your terminology and your worldview, not of mine. That´s why I have repeatedly asked you to explain your use of this term to me.
You will have to understand that I am not able to explain your worldview or your terminology to you, or to explain myself from within your worldview and based on a terminology that isn´t mine.

What is your worldview?

In answer to your question, what I mean by "immoral" is something which is contrary to human dignity.

 

[patricius79]

I found it disingenuous that he would ask what we think then dismiss our subjective experiences out of hand.

Hi DaisyDay,

I don't know where I've been disrespectful of anybody. I think that I'm a sinner and don't condemn people who contracept but only contraception.

Likewise you are criticizing me for what you perceive to be unjust or disingenuous, and it seems to me I've been taking as much criticism as anybody.

That doesn't bother me much. I just hope we can all work at better dialogue.

 

[patricius79]

I am not sure I understand your question correctly. I am not sure I know what you mean when saying "purpose".
As far as I can tell, sex has different purposes to different people (and often even different purposes to the same persons, depending on the situation). E.g. it´s pretty safe to say that when using contraception procreation isn´t the purpose people have sex for. OTOH, I know couples who are so desperately seeking to have a baby that procreation has become the only purpose when they have sex.
So, are you asking what I personally get out of sex and what my purpose is in having it?
Or are you using "purpose" in a different way that you would like to explain before we can discuss it?

To answer your question, I don't really want to ask you what you personally get out of sex, because I'm not sure if that is considered appropriate or if it is comfortable for you to discuss.

I would ask: what do you think true love is?

 

[quatona]

What is your worldview?

What exactly is it you want to know about it - with regards to the topic at hand?
Why do you want to know it? Are you, by any chance, going to stop trying to make me express myself in terms of your worldview? (I´d greatly appreciate that, btw.)

In answer to your question, what I mean by "immoral" is something which is contrary to human dignity.

Thank you.
How exactly do you determine what is in line with and what is contrary to "human dignity"?

 

[quatona]

To answer your question, I don't really want to ask you what you personally get out of sex, because I'm not sure if that is considered appropriate or if it is comfortable for you to discuss.

Well, you asked for the "purpose", and I have no problems giving my purposes.

I would ask: what do you think true love is?

Can we please try to clarify what you mean by a question (here: "...purpose...") - before you ask the next question I don´t understand?
I don´t and have never operated with the term "true love". You introduced it, you tell me what you mean by it - if you want it to be part of our conversation. Thank you.

 

[patricius79]

What exactly is it you want to know about it - with regards to the topic at hand?
Why do you want to know it? Are you, by any chance, going to stop trying to make me express myself in terms of your worldview? (I´d greatly appreciate that, btw.)


Thank you.
How exactly do you determine what is in line with and what is contrary to "human dignity"?

Hi Quatona,

I just want to know what your basic worldview is, especially in relation to the topic of sexuality and contraception.

Sorry for what I've forgotten of it. It's been a while.

You don't need to explain it in Christian terms, if you are not Christian.

Please just explain it in English.

As to how I know something is contrary to human dignity: I know through intuitive reason and the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[John The Recorder Player]

Do you believe that contraception is morally acceptable? If so, why? If not, why not?

I want to know more about what others think about this topic, and to discuss this.

Peace of Christ,

Patrick

I believe it is moral. I can't see any reason why it would not be.