Why is Christianity declining?

[1Tonne]

As I've noted, I'm not trying to discourage you from sharing with as many as possible...I'm trying to encourage you to do it in a way that is sensitive to the needs of the people you are engaging with rather than simply talking at them.

You have not discouraged me, but you have most likely given people who read this thread an excuse not to share the Gospel with many people.

Too many street preachers have inauthentic interactions where they basically run through a script and people are too polite to just tell them to shove off

So, now you are judging how the Holy Spirit can work in a person.
If I were to memorise a bible verse and then say it, would it still have power? Of course, it does. And likewise, if someone memorises how to share the Gospel in a certain way, then that will still have power in it too. Whether it is memorised or not, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
It is good to prepare a defence for your faith.

You are the type of person whom I was originally talking about in my original post. These are the types of people that trust more in their own good deeds to be the power of God unto salvation than you do in the Gospel to be the power of God. This is friendship evangelism elevated above proclamation. So, because of people like you, the Gospel is being very limited, and the church is in decline.

 

[Fervent]

You have not discouraged me, but you have most likely given people who read this thread an excuse not to share the Gospel with many people.

Hardly, unless the only way you can conceive of "sharing the gospel" is the inauthentic witness that so often characterizes street evangelism.

So, now you are judging how the Holy Spirit can work in a person.
If I were to memorise a bible verse and then say it, would it still have power? Of course, it does. And likewise, if someone memorises how to share the Gospel in a certain way, then that will still have power in it too. Whether it is memorised or not, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
It is good to prepare a defence for your faith.

This is just an excuse for not engaging people in an authentic way. Let me ask you a simple question, do you appreciate when people come up to you and use inauthentic sales tactics on you to get you to buy a product?

You are the type of person whom I was originally talking about in my original post. These are the types of people that trust more in their own good deeds to be the power of God unto salvation than you do in the Gospel to be the power of God. This is friendship evangelism elevated above proclamation. So, because of people like you, the Gospel is being very limited, and the church is in decline.

Cool, and you are striking a very strong resemblance to the kind of inauthentic street evangelist that puts people off the gospel by making it seem like some kind of merchandise.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Paul said imitate me as I imitate Christ. And there are many people today who also mimic Paul and Christ.
It seems as though you are dishonouring Jesus or the model He set out for us by using the word "tropes". But that is your prerogative.

I'm not sure how I'm "dishonoring Jesus" if my reference to being mindful of tropes is one that is within the purview of today's Christian scholars of Biblical Exegesis.

As for Paul 'imitating' Christ, one can't really merely extract a small verse in which Paul states he sought to imitate Christ. That verse you cited doesn't stand alone in its meaning, as if all you have to do then is ignore everything else Paul did or said and instead slap open one of the four gospels for "full explanation." There's more to the New Testament than just the Four Gospels.

I gave you the context of Paul's preaching on Mars Hill to consider, among many I am within my rational rights to choose from.

 

[MForbes]

I'm not sure how I'm "dishonoring Jesus" if my reference to being mindful of tropes is one that is within the purview of today's Christian scholars of Biblical Exegesis.

As for Paul 'imitating' Christ, one can't really merely extract a small verse in which Paul states he sought to imitate Christ. That verse you cited doesn't stand alone in its meaning, as if all you have to do then is ignore everything else Paul did or said and instead slap open one of the four gospels for "full explanation." There's more to the New Testament than just the Four Gospels.

I gave you the context of Paul's preaching on Mars Hill to consider, among many I am within my rational rights to choose from.

Street preachers have their own little world. If you're not "sharing the gospel" as they do.....or to as many as they do, then you're wrong. That type of mindset is blatantly obvious on this forum.

 

[Merrill]

The "hardest part" of the faith is

1. Evangelism
2. Defending the faith, even when you are alone, and the odds are against you

I think everyone here, despite all the disagreement, will at least partially agree with that

we can argue all day about the best way to spread the Gospel, and how to approach others, but we still need to do it

and I am the first to admit I fail horribly in this endeavor

when we speak of Hell, it always seemed to me that people end up in Hell because they choose it, and they don't stop sinning once they are there --they continue to sin and deny God. No one is "sending you to Hell", conceptually-speaking --you end up there because it is where you want to be. Now some theologians may disagree with that interpretation, but that is how I see it

Likewise, no Christian can declare anyone "damned", just as none of us can take agency and judgment away from God

We are the prodigal son, and our grieving father wants us to come home

it is OK to tell people they should "go home"

Americans don't want to be told what to do. They are tribal, close-minded, stubborn, etc. Some need to be approached in a friendly and soft way, and others need to be confronted more directly. Some will be moved by example, and others through their intellect. But all of them need to hear the Gospel

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Street preachers have their own little world. If you're not "sharing the gospel" as they do.....or to as many as they do, then you're wrong. That type of mindset is blatantly obvious on this forum.

Yes, these days, it's an unfortunate and frequent thing we see.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The "hardest part" of the faith is

1. Evangelism
2. Defending the faith, even when you are alone, and the odds are against you

I think everyone here, despite all the disagreement, will at least partially agree with that

we can argue all day about the best way to spread the Gospel, and how to approach others, but we still need to do it

and I am the first to admit I fail horribly in this endeavor

when we speak of Hell, it always seemed to me that people end up in Hell because they choose it, and they don't stop sinning once they are there --they continue to sin and deny God. No one is "sending you to Hell", conceptually-speaking --you end up there because it is where you want to be. Now some theologians may disagree with that interpretation, but that is how I see it

Likewise, no Christian can declare anyone "damned", just as none of us can take agency and judgment away from God

We are the prodigal son, and our grieving father wants us to come home

it is OK to tell people they should "go home"

Americans don't want to be told what to do. They are tribal, close-minded, stubborn, etc. Some need to be approached in a friendly and soft way, and others need to be confronted more directly. Some will be moved by example, and others through their intellect. But all of them need to hear the Gospel

I agree with much of what you're saying, Merrill. At the same time, I think we underestimate the implications of what it is to be truly deceived and what that means. Somewhere in the mix, a number of people refuse to believe in the Gospel because something in their thinking has not only been corrupted, it also has been inverted.

Have you ever seen the movie, Coraline? Or, have you ever read C.S. Lewis', The Screwtape Letters? Both of these, while not a watershed of ultimacy in either case, still provide a hint of what I think is transpiring today and which makes it doubly difficult to convey the Gospel.

So, I also think that we as Christians can't simply pull out the idea of Finney's "Anxious Bench" and assume that the Holy Spirit is going to be engaged in that process and that each individual who rejects our message does so simply because they're being rebellious. No, I think there's a lot more at stake in the souls and minds of people today than simply that they, as sinners, choose to rebel.

 

[Fervent]

Americans don't want to be told what to do. They are tribal, close-minded, stubborn, etc. Some need to be approached in a friendly and soft way, and others need to be confronted more directly. Some will be moved by example, and others through their intellect. But all of them need to hear the Gospel

I'm not sure this is something particular about Americans. There are numerous sub-cultures within America that tend to respond to different approaches, and I don't think anyone likes having people use manipulative sales tactics on them and treat them like some kind of object to win. Which is where my issue with street evangelism is, rather than with street evangelism done right. Too often out of supposed concern for the lost important ethical considerations like the golden rule get lost and people become a "mission field" rather than being treated as individuals with their own value. So while I agree that there needs to be more encouragement about sharing the gospel, and more willingness to engage, the typical street evangelist model is often seriously wanting.

 

[Merrill]

I agree with much of what you're saying, Merrill. At the same time, I think we underestimate the implications of what it is to be truly deceived and what that means. Somewhere in the mix, a number of people refuse to believe in the Gospel because something in their thinking has not only been corrupted, it also has been inverted.

Have you ever seen the movie, Coraline? Or, have you ever read C.S. Lewis', The Screwtape Letters? Both of these, while not a watershed of ultimacy in either case, still provide a hint of what I think is transpiring today and which makes it doubly difficult to convey the Gospel.

So, I also think that we as Christians can't simply pull out the idea of Finney's "Anxious Bench" and assume that the Holy Spirit is going to be engaged in that process and that each individual who rejects our message does so simply because they're being rebellious. No, I think there's a lot more at stake in the souls and minds of people today than simply that they, as sinners, choose to rebel.

What always struck me as profound in the writings of Lewis, is the simple idea that to be jaded and detached, is in many ways much worse than being angry at God or the world. Reaching the active sinner who knows he or she is wrong is much easier than reaching a person who simply no longer cares, and is in spiritual desolation.

The White Witch Jadis is one of the great villains of literature, and her name is appropriate. Her seduction starts by simply pulling you away from the truth, the ones who love you, and into desolation and hedonism

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What always struck me as profound in the writings of Lewis, is the simple idea that to be jaded and detached, is in many ways much worse than being angry at God or the world. Reaching the active sinner who knows he or she is wrong is much easier than reaching a person who simply no longer cares, and is in spiritual desolation.

The White Witch Jadis is one of the great villains of literature, and her name is appropriate. Her seduction starts by simply pulling you away from the truth, the ones who love you, and into desolation and hedonism

Well said.

 

[1Tonne]

This is just an excuse for not engaging people in an authentic way. Let me ask you a simple question, do you appreciate when people come up to you and use inauthentic sales tactics on you to get you to buy a product?

I appreciate it when people come to me and warn me of extreme danger. I don't care if they have a prepared defence. What I see in someone who comes and warns of an impending danger is that they show love towards me. Not telling people is unloving.

Cool, and you are striking a very strong resemblance to the kind of inauthentic street evangelist that puts people off the gospel by making it seem like some kind of merchandise.

At least I give away the merchandise Christ has given us instead of hoarding it to myself.
"The Gospel is not something to be hoarded. But rather something to be shared" Ray Comfort

 

[Fervent]

I appreciate it when people come to me and warn me of extreme danger. I don't care if they have a prepared defence. What I see in someone who comes and warns of an impending danger is that they show love towards me. Not telling people is unloving.

So you appreciate people using manipulative sales tactics on you so long as they're doing so to warn you of danger?

At least I give away the merchandise Christ has given us instead of hoarding it to myself.
"The Gospel is not something to be hoarded. But rather something to be shared" Ray Comfort

First Paul Washer, now Ray Comfort. No surprise.

 

[Merrill]

I'm not sure this is something particular about Americans. There are numerous sub-cultures within America that tend to respond to different approaches, and I don't think anyone likes having people use manipulative sales tactics on them and treat them like some kind of object to win. Which is where my issue with street evangelism is, rather than with street evangelism done right. Too often out of supposed concern for the lost important ethical considerations like the golden rule get lost and people become a "mission field" rather than being treated as individuals with their own value. So while I agree that there needs to be more encouragement about sharing the gospel, and more willingness to engage, the typical street evangelist model is often seriously wanting.

Many of us my be uncomfortable with "street evangelism" but it is a complicated issue

There is an Indian guy at my church (EFCA) who is very committed to the faith. He was thrown out of an Indian festival in my city for passing out copies of the Gospel and spreading Christian messages to Hindus and Muslims. He wasn't aggressive about this, and he didn't get out-of-line, but the organizers didn't want him there.

He showed up the next day and tried to get back in. And then the day after that. Someone let him in, and he continued with his efforts.

How many of us are willing to go to those lengths to spread the good news? I certainly wasn't

This guy comes from a Hindu family and is absolutely convinced of Christ's message--so much so, that he is willing to go against his culture, his people, and even his community, to spread the Gospel

That takes guts and commitment

and we wouldn't have a faith or a church if it weren't for people like this guy.

so let's go easy on those public preachers and evangelicals

 

[Fervent]

Many of us my be uncomfortable with "street evangelism" but it is a complicated issue

There is an Indian guy at my church (EFCA) who is very committed to the faith. He was thrown out of an Indian festival in my city for passing out copies of the Gospel and spreading Christian messages to Hindus and Muslims. He wasn't aggressive about this, and he didn't get out-of-line, but the organizers didn't want him there.

He showed up the next day and tried to get back in. And then the day after that. Someone let him in, and he continued with his efforts.

How many of us are willing to go to those lengths to spread the good news? I certainly wasn't

This guy comes from a Hindu family and is absolutely convinced of Christ's message--so much so, that he is willing to go against his culture, his people, and even his community, to spread the Gospel

That takes guts and commitment

and we wouldn't have a faith or a church if it weren't for people like this guy.

so let's go easy on those public preachers and evangelicals

Again, I don't take any issue with street evangelism even simply handing out pamphlets. But too often the model that is used involves blatant manipulative tactics and many of the more public figures in pushing for that kind of evangelism have issues with their integrity and dishonesty that often serves as a blight on the gospel message among non-Christians that makes it more difficult to engage in discussions that aren't immediately antagonistic. So while in many ways simply having the courage to go out and witness in the face of difficulties such as you mention is very admirable, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be calling out the problematic behaviors and attitudes that are often held by street evangelists.

 

[Merrill]

Again, I don't take any issue with street evangelism even simply handing out pamphlets. But too often the model that is used involves blatant manipulative tactics and many of the more public figures in pushing for that kind of evangelism have issues with their integrity and dishonesty that often serves as a blight on the gospel message among non-Christians that makes it more difficult to engage in discussions that aren't immediately antagonistic. So while in many ways simply having the courage to go out and witness in the face of difficulties such as you mention is very admirable, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be calling out the problematic behaviors and attitudes that are often held by street evangelists.

brother

do you really think any street preacher is trying to manipulate or lie to you? There might be some out there --but I don't think that is the norm

I'll tell you what: in my darkest hours, and they were dark indeed, I needed someone to preach to me, or even suggest the Gospel. In those moments where I almost destroyed myself and everyone around me, I needed to hear the good news.

again, we need to give the evangelist some slack

 

[Fervent]

brother

do you really think any street preacher is trying to manipulate or lie to you? There might be some out there --but I don't think that is the norm

It's been my experience that more often than not street evangelists treat it like doing cold approach sales. And I've had conversations with numerous non-believers after they engaged with street evangelists like this that have basically stated that's exactly what it felt like. They play games asking "gotcha" questions and lambast nonbelievers calling them "liars, thieves and blasphemers" and the like. I'm not saying this is always the case, or denying that they often mean well even while doing this kind of inauthentic "witnessing" but that that style street evangelism puts people off of Christianity far more than it forces them to honestly evaluate things.

I'll tell you what: in my darkest hours, and they were dark indeed, I needed someone to preach to me, or even suggest the Gospel. In those moments where I almost destroyed myself and everyone around me, I needed to hear the good news.

again, we need to give the evangelist some slack

When the premise is "you've got to tell them the Bad News before you tell them the good news" alarm bells go off.

 

[rebornfree]

Sorry: had to edit as quoted the wrong thing! The guy going to the Hindu event to hand out the gospel was impressive.

Going back to the OP's question, I'm not sure that Christianity is declining. They mentioned Orthodoxy, about which I know nothing, but the number of people in the Pentecostal churches, here in the UK, is increasing. Of course we know that the Church never will die out and if it did the rocks and stones would cry out the truth about Jesus.

My church, in.the previous town in which I lived, expanded largely through various ministries: coffee shop, counselling, nursery school, etc. and particularly through the Alpha Course. People came in through these routes and got saved. Of course we try to spread the gospel to our personal contacts as well.

We have had a time of prayer and fasting in my current church and are waiting to see where the Lord will lead. There has been a new venture with children, which is also bringing in their parents, but I am concerned about other adults as well. Meanwhile the Lord has told me what to do, which is through writing, and another church member is writing on a different area which will help spread the gospel in the scientific community. There are many ways to spread the gospel including the internet: blog, vlog, Facebook, CF etc. So it's wrong to assume that those who prefer methods other than street preaching don't care for the lost. I've seen much prayer, money, time and effort put into outreach ministries because Christians love others and do not want them to go to hell.

 

[Merrill]

It's been my experience that more often than not street evangelists treat it like doing cold approach sales. And I've had conversations with numerous non-believers after they engaged with street evangelists like this that have basically stated that's exactly what it felt like. They play games asking "gotcha" questions and lambast nonbelievers calling them "liars, thieves and blasphemers" and the like. I'm not saying this is always the case, or denying that they often mean well even while doing this kind of inauthentic "witnessing" but that that style street evangelism puts people off of Christianity far more than it forces them to honestly evaluate things.

When the premise is "you've got to tell them the Bad News before you tell them the good news" alarm bells go off.

why are you taking the side of the unconverted and their petty complaints about street-preachers?

there is nothing "gotcha" about the Gospel --it says what it says, and we either accept it, internalize it, wrestle with it, or reject it

the clumsy sermons of a man on a street corner should not be confused with the ultimate message given to us by He who lives forever

 

[Fervent]

why are you taking the side of the unconverted and their petty complaints about street-preachers?

This seems like an entirely ridiculous complaint, because I'm not "taking sides" I'm relaying the perspective of those the street preachers are supposedly trying to reach. Do you think it's ok to dehumanize people while supposedly preaching the gospel?

there is nothing "gotcha" about the Gospel --it says what it says, and we either accept it, internalize it, wrestle with it, or reject it

No, but street evangelists do play silly games by asking "gotcha" style questions that automatically make the encounter confrontational and puts people off the gospel.

the clumsy sermons of a man on a street corner should not be confused with the ultimate message given to us by He who lives forever

If it were simply clumsy sermons, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But in my experience the type of street evangelist I am talking about isn't simply clumsily relaying a message but going through practiced routines that would be more fitting in a pyramid scheme than engaging people with honest witness.

 

[Merrill]

This seems like an entirely ridiculous complaint, because I'm not "taking sides" I'm relaying the perspective of those the street preachers are supposedly trying to reach. Do you think it's ok to dehumanize people while supposedly preaching the gospel?

No, but street evangelists do play silly games by asking "gotcha" style questions that automatically make the encounter confrontational and puts people off the gospel.

If it were simply clumsy sermons, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But in my experience the type of street evangelist I am talking about isn't simply clumsily relaying a message but going through practiced routines that would be more fitting in a pyramid scheme than engaging people with honest witness.

This seems like an entirely ridiculous complaint, because I'm not "taking sides" I'm relaying the perspective of those the street preachers are supposedly trying to reach. Do you think it's ok to dehumanize people while supposedly preaching the gospel?

No, but street evangelists do play silly games by asking "gotcha" style questions that automatically make the encounter confrontational and puts people off the gospel.

If it were simply clumsy sermons, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But in my experience the type of street evangelist I am talking about isn't simply clumsily relaying a message but going through practiced routines that would be more fitting in a pyramid scheme than engaging people with honest witness.

"Do you think it's ok to dehumanize people while supposedly preaching the gospel"

Who is doing that? "Dehumanizing" --sounds like a fake, left-wing talking point quite frankly. Let's lose the "dehumanizing" rhetoric --it should have no place here

The street preacher, or the preacher proper, is not trying to dehumanize anyone --he is trying to save you. You can object to his methods, or reject his message, but what you should not do is doubt his sincerity. You may think he is wrong, but more often than not, he is trying to help

and as cynical Americans, we think that anyone trying to help us is a huckster, a scam-artist, or ciminal

there are corrupt preachers out there for sure, but I don't think they are the ones in the streets --they are the guys on TV