Why I will not buy a Ford

TheDag · Oct 12, 2007

Candide said:
I still don't get it. How can people boycott Ford for contributing to our horrible society or whatever, and not boycott every company that uses sweatshops, or cheap foreign labor? How can they not boycott Wal-Mart, Starbucks, McDonalds and all of the other mega corporations that are making this world a more horrible place to live (by biblical standards) every day? Why are we worried about homosexuality more than poverty? That makes no sense to me. How many versus in the Bible deal with homosexuality, and how many deal with the poor?

Seriously.

It certainly comes across as homosexuality being worse than the unforgiveable sin. Hopefully that is not the view of these anyone here. I couldn't agree more.

Concetta · Oct 14, 2007

Kudos to Ford, Disney, etc for what they are doing at the risk of being shunned by bigots

Rion · Oct 15, 2007

The Ford foundation is seperate from the Ford company.

*edit* And why they don't boycott sweatshops is two fold

1) It's not in the news nearly as much, so they don't get noticed.

2) Radical homosexuals, like the ones in California that tried to ruin a Catholic Communion service, tend to make this group stick out on the radar.

Btw, the original post is funny because Paul says to not worry over idol meat.

dies-l · Oct 15, 2007

Candide said:
I still don't get it. How can people boycott Ford for contributing to our horrible society or whatever, and not boycott every company that uses sweatshops, or cheap foreign labor? How can they not boycott Wal-Mart, Starbucks, McDonalds and all of the other mega corporations that are making this world a more horrible place to live (by biblical standards) every day? Why are we worried about homosexuality more than poverty? That makes no sense to me. How many versus in the Bible deal with homosexuality, and how many deal with the poor?

Seriously.

Because life (and religion) is so much easier when you only focus on the sins that you're not guilty of.

TheDag · Oct 15, 2007

Rion said:
Btw, the original post is funny because Paul says to not worry over idol meat.

Yeah i found that funny as well!

dpartlow · Oct 15, 2007

Rion said:
The Ford foundation is seperate from the Ford company.

*edit* And why they don't boycott sweatshops is two fold

1) It's not in the news nearly as much, so they don't get noticed.

2) Radical homosexuals, like the ones in California that tried to ruin a Catholic Communion service, tend to make this group stick out on the radar.

Btw, the original post is funny because Paul says to not worry over idol meat.

Apparently you didn't read the whole book.

thereselittleflower · Oct 15, 2007

dpartlow said:
Paul told us to avoid buying Idol Meat (because it funds heretical behavior).

Horsefeathers!

Paul said no such thing!

Paul said the exact opposite!

He said to buy whatever one found in the market place (and most of what was in the market place had been offered to idols first), asking no questions.

How people misuse the scriptures to support their own agenda is pretty sad. . .

.

dpartlow · Oct 16, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Horsefeathers!

Paul said no such thing!

Paul said the exact opposite!

He said to buy whatever one found in the market place (and most of what was in the market place had been offered to idols first), asking no questions.

How people misuse the scriptures to support their own agenda is pretty sad. . .

.

1st Corinthians 5

We are told to boycott (not consume - same thing) that which is the product of apostacy (idol meat - or in the modern context - products of companies which are contributing to societal apostacy/delinquancy - like Ford)

Paul goes on to explain (chapter 10) that it is not the act of eating meat which is sinful (just as driving a Ford in and of itself is not sinful), but it is association with the heresy, even though it is indirect, which is to be avoided.

The real motivation in Paul's writing is not leading others away from righteousness. Since Ford has cast it's lot with organizations that are leading people away from righteousness, I will cast my lot (and my transportation budget) with an automotive company which has not. To do otherwise only strengthens an organization and a cause which is out of line with the teaching of Christ.

dpartlow · Oct 16, 2007

dpartlow said:
1st Corinthians 5

We are told to boycott (not consume - same thing) that which is the product of apostacy (idol meat - or in the modern context - products of companies which are contributing to societal apostacy/delinquancy - like Ford)

Paul goes on to explain (chapter 10) that it is not the act of eating meat which is sinful (just as driving a Ford in and of itself is not sinful), but it is association with the heresy, even though it is indirect, which is to be avoided.

The real motivation in Paul's writing is not leading others away from righteousness. Since Ford has cast it's lot with organizations that are leading people away from righteousness, I will cast my lot (and my transportation budget) with an automotive company which has not. To do otherwise only strengthens an organization and a cause which is out of line with the teaching of Christ.

Let's take a different and more extreme hypothesis for the purpose of illustrating the point.

What if Ford was advertising in a devil-worshipping journal; airing television content that promoted devil-worship. (I realize this may sound ridiculous, but I use this just as hyperbole to explain the original point).

Buying a car let's assume put's another $500 into Ford's coffers - some of it will be used in similar marketing campaigns... If I truly 'love my neighbor' and know that some (not all) will be led astray by these campaigns - How could I possibly contemplate buying a Ford?

Now if you disagree that homosexuality is sinful - this hyperbole won't do anything for you - but there is a different sub-forum for that debate. The bible is very clear and most people, regardless of political persuasion, will admit that homosexuality is sinful (even much of the homosexual community does so) the political decision being more an issue of individual rights/freedoms.

So whether the sin being promoted is devil-worshipping or something more subtle (although some would argue there is no difference), how could a Christian contemplate even indirect involvement (through the purchase of product) regardless of how you read Paul?

dies-l · Oct 16, 2007

dpartlow said:
1st Corinthians 5

We are told to boycott (not consume - same thing) that which is the product of apostacy (idol meat - or in the modern context - products of companies which are contributing to societal apostacy/delinquancy - like Ford)

Paul goes on to explain (chapter 10) that it is not the act of eating meat which is sinful (just as driving a Ford in and of itself is not sinful), but it is association with the heresy, even though it is indirect, which is to be avoided.

The real motivation in Paul's writing is not leading others away from righteousness. Since Ford has cast it's lot with organizations that are leading people away from righteousness, I will cast my lot (and my transportation budget) with an automotive company which has not. To do otherwise only strengthens an organization and a cause which is out of line with the teaching of Christ.

Will you explain to me how 1 Cor. 5 has anything to do with this? In my Bible, it seems to be talking about not allowing the Church to be seen as a shelter for people engaged in unrepentant immoral behavior and who claim to be believers. It specifically says that it is not referring to "people of this world who are immoral." (v. 10). So, how exactly does this support the boycott of Ford (or any other boycott for that matter)?

Also the way I read 1 Cor. 10 (as well as Rom. 14), it seems to suggest that we should respect your right to boycott Ford, but at the same time, you should understand that this is not a biblical command, but a choice made according to your own conscience. Thus, you should be equally accepting of those who do not have the same conviction. (See, e.g., Rom 14:22-23). So, if you want to boycott Ford, then by all means, go for it. Just don't be so surprised or offended when other believers aren't jumping on the bandwagon to join you.

thereselittleflower · Oct 16, 2007

dpartlow said:
1st Corinthians 5

We are told to boycott (not consume - same thing) that which is the product of apostacy (idol meat - or in the modern context - products of companies which are contributing to societal apostacy/delinquancy - like Ford)

Paul goes on to explain (chapter 10) that it is not the act of eating meat which is sinful (just as driving a Ford in and of itself is not sinful), but it is association with the heresy, even though it is indirect, which is to be avoided.

The real motivation in Paul's writing is not leading others away from righteousness. Since Ford has cast it's lot with organizations that are leading people away from righteousness, I will cast my lot (and my transportation budget) with an automotive company which has not. To do otherwise only strengthens an organization and a cause which is out of line with the teaching of Christ.

Paul on eating meat offered to idols:

"Eat everything being sold in a meat market, examining nothing because of conscience . . ."
(I Cor 10:25)

"And if any of the unbelievers invite you, and
you desire to go, eat everything set before you, examining nothing because of conscience . . ."
(10:27)

kulenok · Oct 16, 2007

You listed like everything possible. What I do not understand, why do so many people support this on such a large scale? I mean, Christians look down on it, sociaty looks down on it, God looks down on it, its just plain wrong, and well people are supporting it publicly. Gosh, what has happened to people these days? I mean you turn on the news, you read a newspaper, you see only bad news. It gets depressing at times... I do howeer believe, that the government is equally wrong. They take our taxes, which they forcce us to pay, and use them to supply war. Wow. I really feel that humans have screwed it up. Everything. The world, themselves, their souls, their values, and their minds.

Rion · Oct 16, 2007

sociaty looks down on it

This is where you're wrong. Society, at least Western Academic Society, is so hedonistic, that it supports anything and everything that does not make a moral judgement. These are the people teaching our children, and so it spreads like a virus.

dpartlow · Oct 17, 2007

I apologize for not being clearer more explicit in my explanations. I referenced a chapter but did not describe how it was relevant, because I hoped some would look and find the relevance for themselves. Perhaps this has happened, but now there are others who clearly do not follow, and for the sake of them and other readers, I will explain.

The meat spoken of in Corinthians is clearly a metaphor for something of substance, and as I shall explain, when Paul reveals it as metaphor it is the literal which may be permissible or forgivable in and of itself, but the object of the metaphor which is not because it is not edifying, when it goes against the spirit of God.

Ch. 3

1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The meat and milk spoken of here is clearly metaphorical. The avoidance of meat is because the audience is still living in a carnal world.

Ch. 5

11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12: For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13: But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

The message here is: Do not participate with the iniquitous have nothing to do with them. A call to avoid the carnal world. Again the metaphor of eating is linked to participation in the iniquitous world.

Ch. 6

9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Restating the theme of ch. 5 and Paul clearly includes sexual sins in the list of things that prevent one from inheriting Gods kingdom.

11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12: All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

A reminder that the audience had been of-the-carnal-world but have received justification through Christ. Now that justification provides salvation and saves them from the eternal consequence of Sin but Sin is still not good for them Not all things are expedient.

13: Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

Meats for the belly here is an indication that iniquity goes hand in hand with the carnal body or carnal world. But for those who are saved, the body (and our daily acts and resources) should be dedicated to God, not to the iniquity of the carnal world.

14: And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16: What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

This is making it clear that our body, in fact our entire existence is to be joined to the Lord. If we are to be joined to Christ, how could we possibly contemplate allowing our bodies (our whole existence) to be defiled by the carnal world.

Ch. 8

1: Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2: And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3: But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4: As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7: Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8: But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9: But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

Idols are nothing but stone or wood, and so there is no actual physical or spiritual effect on the meat itself that imparts anything to the consumer. However, because the meat was dedicated to an idol, the whole practice has the effect of confusing and defiling the weak. And it should therefore be avoided so as not to be a party to a practice which leads others astray.

Similarly, there is nothing evil about a Ford car driving one makes us neither better or worse. But like the idolators offering sacrifices to idols, Ford has defiled itself by dedicated itself to a serious iniquity. By assisting in the spread of Sinful behavior, Ford, and its consumers are creating stumbling blocks for the weak.

I can see many of you shaking your head, but look, the airing of certain programs, the sponsorship of certain events, the subsidizing of certain heretical journals Creates stumbling blocks and does lead many into an iniquitous lifestyle.

Ch. 8

11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12: But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13: Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

This really drives it home by participating in Idol Meat (which throughout this whole book has been a metaphor not just for idolatry but represents the substance of all the other iniquities listed with it) we are offending, even sinning against our brother, and worse yet, against Christ himself.

Paul says I will eat no flesh lest I make my brother to offend.

That says it all. Its not about some demon possessed product. Its about the indirect ramifications which perpetuate the carnal iniquity of the world.

Ch. 10

1: Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3: And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5: But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6: Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7: Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8: Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Now Paul reverts to the holy, spiritual meat (substance) spoken of in Chapter 3 and then, once again he contrasts it with the people destroyed by God in the time of Noah eating and drinking again linking back to sexual sin.

13: There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
14: Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15: I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17: For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

And then from temptation/idolatry/iniquity back again to the holy spiritual body/substance/bread.

18: Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter?
19: What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20: But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21: Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Then an interesting comparison between the idolatrous who eat the sacrificial idol meat, with the Jews who also eat sacrificial meat. Really a re-iteration and strengthening of Ch. 8 verse 8-13. Not only are those who partake of the carnal cup of the iniquitous sinning against Christ, but they are creating a fellowship with devils.

23: All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24: Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
25: Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27: If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28: But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

Reiteration chapter 6 vs. 12. All things may be permissible/forgivable but not all things are good for us. Eat (even buy) meat if it is in no way linked to idolatry, but if it is in anyway could lead to the defiling of another avoid it completely.

That is all I have asserted as well.

29: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30: For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31: Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Whatever we do, it is to be to the glory of God. If one subsidizes the mocking of him through their purchases, then have they not also offended him?

dpartlow · Oct 17, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Paul on eating meat offered to idols:
"Eat everything being sold in a meat market, examining nothing because of conscience . . ."

(I Cor 10:25)

"And if any of the unbelievers invite you, and

you desire to go, eat everything set before you, examining nothing because of conscience . . ."

(10:27)

I meant to post this as a reply to your post, but it showed up further down the thread.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39880431&postcount=7http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5977353

dpartlow · Oct 17, 2007

Rion said:
This is where you're wrong. Society, at least Western Academic Society, is so hedonistic, that it supports anything and everything that does not make a moral judgement. These are the people teaching our children, and so it spreads like a virus.

Rion, the way you write, I would think you would agree with the boycott.

Here is a much more carefully written explanation - I admit some of my earlier citations were a bit vague.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39880431&postcount=7http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5977353

dpartlow · Oct 17, 2007

Here is a much more carefully written response. I admit my citations were a bit vague previously - but chapter 5 is related, as is ch. 3,6,8,9,&10
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39880431&postcount=7
http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=5977353

staveoffzombies · Oct 18, 2007

This is beyond ridiculous. Have you taken into account the thousands that work for Ford, and what a large scale boycott would do to their livelihoods? And like someone earlier in this thread mentioned, there are companies doing things so much worse morally.

But hey, if you want to stay up there on your soapbox, have fun.

dpartlow · Oct 18, 2007

I have nothing against the individuals at Ford who have had nothing to do with these marketing efforts. In fact I feel quite badly for them in that they are working at a company that does not share (many of) their Christian morals.

And yes, the boycott has already had a dramatic effect (together with other factors) sales have been down something like 17 of the last 18 months.

The boycott was temporarily lifted when Ford officials promised to remain neutral, however they went back on their word within a few days and the boycott was reinstated. There are many many at Ford who want the company to repent, but alas theyare not the ones that make the final decisions.

My prayer is that the company will repent and the boycott lifted before it is too late.

FYI, Ford's "10 year default probability" as determined in the credit (bond) markets is about 80% (CCC- rating) on its preferred stock, 50% (CCC+) on its bonds. Before the boycott, the probability was about 5-6% (the outlook for the company was decidedly different then).

TheDag · Oct 18, 2007

dpartlow said:
Here is a much more carefully written response. I admit my citations were a bit vague previously - but chapter 5 is related, as is ch. 3,6,8,9,&10
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39880431&postcount=7

According to your expalnation we should have absolutely nothing to do with unbelievers. Therefore we shouldn't witness to them because that would require us to have something to do with them.
Looking at where you quoted chapter 5:11-13 is talking about how to treat someone who claims to be a believer and is doing these things. Ford is not a believer because Ford is a company so it can't be a believer or unbeliever. The passage is not saying don't have anything to do with iniquitous people. It is only talking about those who claim to be believers.

When you mention chapter 6:11-12 it is not in context. It is once again to do with how believers deal with each other. To therefore use it as a support for boycotting is not reasonable.

Also in chapter 8 it is talking about how we should interact and treat things in relation to fellow believers NOT UNBELIEVERS.

I'm not going to go through the rest as I am tired and don't feel like it. I'm also fairly certain it is going to be more of the same.

Why I will not buy a Ford

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