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Additionally, there are all kinds of things Jesus and the Apostles did that are not in the Bible. Bible-only is extra-Biblical. No matter which way something is facing it is still a statue, your distinction between the differences a statue faces is an extra-Biblical teaching. Do you realize that?
I am not claiming my words to be Scripture or inspired on this point. I could be wrong, of course. It is more of a logical deduction based on knowing God and knowing the truth of other Scripture verses. We know by Scripture that God is unlike evil. This is why I would conclude that there is a difference between God’s statues and the pagan ones. Are you saying that there is no difference between the light and the darkness? There is no distinct difference between the things of God and other things that are not of God? This again is a logical deduction. While the Bible is our lifeline to the faith, I did not need the Bible to know of His existence (as Scripture confirms). The difference between my logical deduction vs. your extra biblical practice is that your view falls into the realm of idolatry. The problem in your view is that one cannot truly define the light from the darkness when it comes to God’s artifacts when he told the Israelites to make them vs. pagan religionists creating pagan statues. You see them as the same when Scripture repeatedly tells us that there is a distinct difference between God’s things, and His ways vs. the devil and the darkness of this world. The difference is I have Scriptural support to show God is different than darkness, and yet you do not have Scriptural support for the practice that you can create a graven image or statue and bow down to it.
Please quit falsely accusing me, I do not support the creation of graven images or bow down to them. Did you consider the possibility that perhaps your views are more along those lines than mine? God knows and God will judge. Thus it is wise to heed God's Word and not go around accusing others of sin.
Probably all quoting the same made up information, just like all those internet sources regarding all the pagan practices surrounding the alleged Anglo-Saxon goddess name Oestra. It is telling that despite your internet search bringing up 'lots of results' you obviously couldn't find a single credible source to link to.
I'm not changing "reality".
I haven't made a graven image.
I don't have any idols.
He doesn't.
And if you read my posts, you wouldn't accuse me of idolatry.
Yes, it is - but I don't have idols.
I haven't made any idols.
No, he doesn't - you do.
No.
How do you define "doing Christmas" - what do you think I should give up?
I am not looking to make it all about you alone by any means. You did not invent the Catholic Church. I strive not to make it about the individual but the wrong belief as a whole or the wrong church belief as a whole (i.e., the overall group systematic belief). Meaning, I disagree with the Catholic church’s practice of creating statues and their bowing down to them. We can see Catholics bowing down to statues with a basic Google image search. This to me clearly paints a picture of idolatry as I read in the Bible. So no. This is not solely about you, but about the wrong practice of a particular church from my understanding of the Bible. This point relates to Christmas and its promotion of the existence of idol trees that God condemns in Jeremiah 10. That’s the main point I was trying to make. It was by no means about accusing you alone by any means. While I am not perfect, my belief is to always strive to attack the belief and not the person. Granted, if a person sets out to personally attack me, this becomes more difficult (Of course).
Not at all. How would you even define idolatry existing in this world today like we read about in Scripture?
Again, it is not my goal to make it solely about you or to get a high off trying to point out one person’s sin. That is not how I strive to operate by any means. Like I said, I strive to attack the wrong belief as a whole and not individuals. I may encourage a person to stop, but I am not looking to condemn. The life we now have is time and space for us to change our ways and live for the Lord Jesus as we read about In Scripture.
Again, you can do a basic image search on idol statues and this is the majority of them you will discover. It is by no means hidden on the internet. We are not living in the time before the internet or anything. It’s common knowledge to anyone with a the capacity to do a basic internet search. I also do not want to promote pictures of idolatry, either. We are commanded to flee idolatry and not to promote it.
Uh, I just looked recently on the internet and I found actual pagan witch websites who claim to the use of decorated Yule trees in their dark craft. Jeremiah 10 talks about this tree worship and so obviously this practice does predate the practice of these witches. But there is also the druids who did the same thing before Christmas came about. I know. Your worldview thinks Christmas was invented with your church and so you will just reject anything else and see it as false no matter how convincing the evidence to the unbiased observer or investigator. Besides, it is not just about having idol trees on Christmas that Jeremiah 10 forbids one in having. My OP points out other unbiblical elements that clearly are a huge problem that a person has to bury their head in the sand on. I was just talking to a Christian in this thread about their rationalization of promoting the lie of a fake birthday date for Jesus. Again, this would be a promotion of a lie. That alone should be a sufficient reason to not celebrate Christmas. But people cannot see the forest from the trees on this topic because of their love for a holiday.
Again, I would encourage you to not just go off your own thoughts on this. Keep reading Jeremiah 10 on this point and pray about it with the Lord and see what He says by it with His Word. Part of the instruction in Jeremiah 10 is to not even decorate a tree. Why? Because they are idols. God does not want us to have idols in our home. Would you put up a statue of Mary in your living room? Then why the idol decorated tree that God forbids us to create in Jeremiah 10? I will tell you why. Because you have built up a repeated pattern of pleasure since your childhood in having this idol tree in your life every year come Christmas time. But my following God’s Word must come before my own pleasures or desires or what I have known. There was much I have changed in my life in following the Lord Jesus. This is something that takes time to learn as we mature in Christ. It is not an overnight thing for all Christians to understand. They need to believe EVERY Word of God and this includes the instruction in Jeremiah 10 not to have any decorated trees, regardless if one bows down to it or not.
Your missing the point.
Again, Jeremiah 10 says a decorated tree is an idol by the use of other words. It says not to partake of this practice that the heathen nations.
The Bible has a way of changing our mind if we allow it to. But it does not seem you desire it to change you. This is a challenge to you to seek out the real truth and not your own version of it.
No.
Do you actually know what an idol is?
A thing only becomes an idol if we give it all our time, attention, money, devotion etc. Devotion and worship are to be reserved for God alone.
No, it doesn't.
Of course I do.
According to Jeremiah 10 if you decorate a tree every year, this would be an idol, whether you admit that truth or not.
I don’t believe so. God would have to reveal that to me if there is anything I am missing. But I am willing to change if God presses it upon my heart if there is anything. But I don’t have pagan statues in my home or idol trees as we read about in Scripture. These are clear examples of idols and we should not have them in our home if the Lord Jesus is truly the Lord of our life and we are not our own lords and masters.
According to the Jeremiah 10 passage, one would be doing so if they decorate a tree at Christmas time. But again, you will never see this unless you reread the passage in prayer and be open to being corrected. But before, you said to me that when somebody tells you not to do something you want to do it all the more.
You cannot tell the plastic trees from the real ones these days. So obviously you are not correctly understanding the heart of the command God gave in Jeremiah 10. Again, your focus is the pleasure of what you want and you are not seeking what God wants from Jeremiah 10. I would encourage you to pray continually over Jeremiah 10 and be willing to change. Let God guide you with His Word, and not me.
Christmas is not defined by any one person or individual alone. Today’s false education system is leading people to redefine gender as they see fit, thereby changing reality to how they desire to see it. Today’s claim by people is, “My truth is not your truth“. But truth is not subjective. A general observance of the holiday and what people do currently on the holiday common to all is sufficient to get this answer. You can ask Google, or Chat.openai.com if you truly have not lived on this planet long enough to know.
Actually, the Bible makes my case for me all on its own. I am only pointing out to you what it says.
While an idol can be other things, the traditional form of an idol is a statue of a false god. This is what we see in Scripture unless you deny the golden calf story, the statue of a king in Daniel 3, etcetera.
Not at all. The Bible can only be an idol if somebody bows down to it if they believed it was the very being or essence of God Himself. However, the Bible is merely a love letter to man. They are His words that we revere. The Bible teaches that God is a spirit being.
I am glad you said you would be open to change. That’s nice to hear. But I am not talking about you worshiping a plastic tree. I never said you did that. My point is in just possessing the tree that is decorated. According to God’s Word (Jeremiah 10), He indirectly is saying that a decorated tree is an idol and we are not to follow the heathen practice of making this (Regardless of whether or not we bow down or worship it - which I know that you and most people do not do). But most people do have a Christmas tree and I believe this is an idol by the wording in Jeremiah 10. All I can do is again encourage you to stay open about it and reread the chapter several times for a few years in prayer. That’s all I am asking. Then let God do His work.
Personally I've nver had any inclination to worship a statue of a cow.
An object ofworship, yeah.
Which statue? The gold cow? The Statue of Liberty? The statue of the Hamburglar in McDonald's playground?
What was shown to be what?
So if we're behind the Hamburglar he isn't an idol.
And none that says I can't.
So are pews.
I love "bow down". In the Korean church I attend, we "bow down" to each other as a sign of respect, and if I didn't I'd simply be considered rude and disrespectful. So I "bow down" before the Crucifix, and the Altar, and to the Cross as the procession passes, as paying respect the things of God. Not your culture? Sawright, it is mine.
Cultural chauvinist much? God is an American, hmmm?
OK, if we meet I won't "bow down" to you. But I will my church brethren,out of respect.
Yep, your church is The Real Church, your doctrines are The Real Doctrines, y'all are the Real Christians.
Yeah, I've been told by a few self-important Protestants that they don't need beads to pray. But I suspect that for the most part they don't pray at all. The beads remind me to pray, and keep my prayers orderly. A mnemonic device, we geek boys would call it. And yeah, we also pray without them as well, trust me on that account.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Why should I not ask our departed brethren to pray for me? Oh, I forgot, it's like bowing, your lot forbids it. BTW, do you ask your living brethren to pray for you?
Sorry, but words mean things:
It does help if you know what the word actually means.
So if you want to have statues you can?
That's how you learn to recognize neo-judaizers and making up rules to elevate to being equivalent to Scripture.
Hmmm...I don't see any mention of Christmas trees in Scripture at all. Third chapter of Jude, maybe?
Nope, you're saying what you think it means. I happen to think you're not only wrong,but arbitrarily making the Scripture fit your doctrine.
Like the infamous cow.
Good,because that would simply be stupid.
Which is not what Scripture was talking about, was it?
Nah, that's not what it says at all., That's youer doctrine imposed on the Scripture.
Baloney.
Go thou and do likewise.
Leave the judging to Jesus. Catholics are a praying bunch, and often have kneelers not just in the Real Presence of Jesus, but at other locations to pray. Catholics are not worshiping the statues, again take care and not make the mistake of taking the place of Jesus in regard to judging.
