Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[ArmenianJohn]

Traditional date yes... but not his birthday either. It wasn't in the winter, that is very easily provable in Scripture. Now, celebrate it whenever you want, I really don't care... but don't get too dogmatic about him being born in the winter because it's a strawman that will fall over really easy.

Didn't say it was his birthdate. That is unknown. That's the traditional Christmas date.

 

[Albion]

Traditional date yes... but not his birthday either. It wasn't in the winter, that is very easily provable in Scripture. Now, celebrate it whenever you want, I really don't care... but don't get too dogmatic about him being born in the winter because it's a strawman that will fall over really easy.

Technically, that is most likely so. But since we do not know -- and cannot know -- the actual date, it is understandable how the early Christians thought the legend of Christ being executed on the anniversary of the date of his conception was as good a guide to a selection of days for holding the commemoration as anything.

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm afraid that I don't get the point there. A heretic is one who has made the choice to walk apart and makes claims upon/about the original (orthodox) body of believers to the extent that the heretic claims to be orthodox and says the larger body is not orthodox. That's why he chooses to walk apart from it. And usually this results in a new sect being formed around the (heretical) choice.

First of all, that is the modern definition of the word. And Albion, I use that definition just as anyone else does. My point in sharing the Thayer and Liddell-Scott definitions (force being #1) was to let Jason know that him pushing his view about Christmas on Christians can be a form of heresy. It is one thing to make your understanding known... it is another to continue to "push" your view on another... pushing is force. His position that Christians are basically in sin for celebrating messiah's birth in December and then pushing that on them robing them of that joy and time with their own God... is wrong. That's why I took a moment to define heresy as it was understood 2000 years ago.

The heretics of long ago weren't the ones losing their heads, they were the ones with the axes!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
Thayer Definition:
1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city

Liddell-Scott adds "to take by force." I admit that "choice" is a major factor with this word. One doesn't storm a city filled with people they agree with. But the modern definition ONLY means choice, whereas the FIRST definition in the first century dealt with force. I can show it being used as force, as choice, and as sect in the NT.

Ahhh, thanks for that clarification.
Perhaps you are referring to the derivative of #138---#726?

139. hairesis hah'-ee-res-is from 138;
properly, a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion:--heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect.
138. haireomai hahee-reh'-om-ahee probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.
726. harpazo from a derivative of 138;
to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The violent ones could still be symbolizing the corrupt murderous Judean Rulers?

Matthew 11:12
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is being violently-forced<971>, and the violent<973> take it by force<726>.
Luke 16:16
“The law and the prophets were until John.
from then the kingdom of the God is being evangelized and every-one into it is violently-forcing<971> and violent-ones<973> are forcefully-taking<726> it

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Important Note:
(Please read this before posting and or reading the rest of my OP):
​

​

One other thing: The problem(s) with Christmas aren't in the holiday itself. The holiday itself is a simple remembrance/celebration of Christ's Nativity which is central to Christianity. Nothing at all wrong with that. The fact that The Nativity is central to Christianity IS Biblical.

The real problem that you should have with Christmas is how evil countries like America have turned it into a mammon-worship holiday. There's the crime, there's the sin. And I'm not even saying you can't have gifts, Christmas trees, etc. I'm saying that as a culture those things replace Christ and that is sin, and on a family/individual level you can't let those things replace Christ in Christmas.

The thing I see is a lot of Christmas-hating Christians (like yourself) usually also happen to be huge "patriots", which is just another term for America-worshipers.

 

[Ken Rank]

Technically, that is most likely so. But since we do not know -- and cannot know -- the actual date, it is understandable how the early Christians thought the legend of Christ being executed on the anniversary of the date of his conception was as good a guide to a selection of days for holding the commemoration as anything.

What is most likely, Passover? It might be.... but since Elizabeth's husband was a priest in the order of Abijah, and that order served twice a year at a set time... then since we know Elizabeth became pregnant when he came out of his time of service, and since we know how far along Elizabeth was and Mary was when Mary came to visit... then it is simple math that puts a delivery date anywhere from late August to the first week of October... depending on how the Hebrew calendar (which at that time was observed, not calculated) coincided that year. Now, that is based on her getting pregnant after his first time of service. If the 2nd... then we can argue Passover instead of Tabernacles. But it is one or the other and >>NOBODY<< knows with 100% certainty which. What we do know is that is wasn't in the winter.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Albion]

First of all, that is the modern definition of the word.

My comments were based on the apparent connection or similarity between the original and the modern usage.

And Albion, I use that definition just as anyone else does. My point in sharing the Thayer and Liddell-Scott definitions (force being #1) was to let Jason know that him pushing his view about Christmas on Christians can be a form of heresy. It is one thing to make your understanding known... it is another to continue to "push" your view on another... pushing is force. His position that Christians are basically in sin for celebrating messiah's birth in December and then pushing that on them robing them of that joy and time with their own God... is wrong. That's why I took a moment to define heresy as it was understood 2000 years ago.

I see. But would that be a heresy in the religious sense (which would be the only sense to matter in this case) or just something else that's unacceptable, wrong, improper, etc.?

No need to reply. I'm just thinking aloud.

 

[No Swansong]

I think all Christians should not celebrate it for biblical reasons. That is why I had written a well thought treatise with Scripture for you to read or check out. If you do not want to hear it, then this thread is not for you then.

It's not that I didn't want to hear it it's that I am not convinced by your argumentation,nor do I believe that the limitations you put upon yourself applicable to others

 

[Albion]

What is most likely, Passover? It might be.... but since Elizabeth's husband was a priest in the order of Abijah, and that order served twice a year at a set time... then since we know Elizabeth became pregnant when he came out of his time of service, and since we know how far along Elizabeth was and Mary was when Mary came to visit... then it is simple math that puts a delivery date anywhere from late August to the first week of October... depending on how the Hebrew calendar (which at that time was observed, not calculated) coincided that year. Now, that is based on her getting pregnant after his first time of service. If the 2nd... then we can argue Passover instead of Tabernacles. But it is one or the other and >>NOBODY<< knows with 100% certainty which. What we do know is that is wasn't in the winter.

Blessings.
Ken

Most of us know that the date chosen is arbitrary, don't we? And it has to be so, as you just explained here.

 

[drich0150]

Important Note:
(Please read this before posting and or reading the rest of my OP):

I want to first say that I love you in the Lord Jesus Christ. I also want to say that I love all people. I am commanded by God to even love my enemies. My message today here is not that I want to be of hate or of malice, but of love. I say what I do in love to you. God tells me to even love the sinner and hate the sin. I am especially fond of my fellow Christians who truly desire to follow Christ and who seek to obey Him in everything that He tells us to do within His Word. That is what this thread is about. If you are offended by what I will say with Scripture, please know I am not saying I am better than you or that I do not care about you. I am nothing. The Lord our God is everything; And I love you deeply. I am merely calling you in love to follow God's Word and His Word alone. Only God can open our eyes, and change our hearts to see what His Word says in so many ways. I am only speaking and doing that which I believe is right by the Word of God. This thread is merely to show you what the Bible says about a popular celebration of the world when we compare it with Scripture. For surely we can love our families without a specific calendar day telling us to do so. We can most assuredly love our family by God's Word alone. In fact, speaking of God's Word, we are told within His Word to test everything (1 Thessalonians 5:21). We are to hold fast to that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21). My friends, I call you all in love to look at the Holy Scriptures today with a fresh new pair of eyes. Before you begin, I would like you to take a moment and pray. I would like for you to pray to the Lord and ask Him for wisdom and understanding before reading what I am about to share with you in love involving the Scriptures. For I write this because I love you in Christ Jesus.
Side Note: Did you pray yet? Did you really do it? Please do so now if you have not done so. Anyways, may the Lord's love and goodness be upon you this day that the Lord has made.​

Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical.

#1. Christmas is not celebrated anywhere in the Bible.

(a) Jesus is not a baby right now but He is our risen Lord.

We are never told to honor just a baby Jesus alone,
but we are told to live unto a risen Lord (2 Corinthians 5:15).
Focusing on a baby version of Jesus (without mentioning the resurrection of Christ in our message) is to take the focus off of our risen Lord Jesus Christ. If our message does not include a risen Christ, then our preaching is in vain according to Paul:
"And if Christ be not risen,
then is our preaching vain,
and your faith is also vain." (1 Corinthians 15:14).
Tell me, does Christmas focus on a risen Lord or does it focus on His birth?

(b) While there are biblical clues to Christ's birth date, the date of Christ's birth is nowhere specifically mentioned in the Bible and oddly his birth is coincidentally placed upon the date of the worship of other pagan gods, and a popular pagan festival, instead.

Is it okay to worship God in any way we like? In Genesis 4, we see Cain trying to bring the harvest of the ground unto God as a sacrifice instead of offering an animal sacrifice like his brother Abel did correctly (See Genesis 4:3-7). Cain's offering was not accepted. His worship was not accepted. Why? Because he was doing his own thing. Cain grew angry and decided to kill his own brother over this. Friend, do you hate or dislike Christians who do not keep Christ-mass?
Jesus says he seeks for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Are we worshiping in truth if there are some pagan elements (which are a lie) mixed in with the truth? Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life? (John 14:6). Jesus said, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shalt you serve." (Luke 4:8). But how can we worship God alone if we are involving pagan elements in our worship of Him. Was not Cain's offering of doing whatever he wanted not accepted by God? (See Genesis 4:5). Was Cain truly worshiping God alone by being obedient to him or was he worshiping God his own way?​

#2. Christmas Trees.

21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the Lord thy God, which thou shalt make thee.
22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth."
(Deuteronomy 16:21).

2 "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (Jeremiah 10:2-4).

Celts and druids (witches) believe trees are sacred or magical objects.
Meaning, they holds some kind of significance spiritually for them.

Even if you did not put up trees yourself.
You cannot stop others from doing so.
Christmas trees is about the holiday (holy day) season.
Some people sing praises to the Christmas tree (without thinking about it) in Christmas carols. People give attention to a beautiful object and put presents around it (like a gift or offering) to this beautiful object. Some people dance around the Christmas tree. Sure seems like harmless fun, but what if the Bible is really condemning trees?
Also, why would you want to imitate a practice that is similar to the druids and put up a sacred special tree in your home?
Sure, they may not think it is a god or idol exactly because your not bowing down to it or praying to it, but does that mean we can just put statues of demonic idols in our home and God would be okay with that?​

#3. Do not imitate the heathen's ways or men's traditions.

Colossians 2:8 says,
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Is Christmas something in the Bible or is it more like a tradition of men and or after the rudiments of the world? Think about it. Should we let a world recognized holiday tell us how we are to worship our Lord? Or do we let the Bible alone tell us how we are to worship our Lord?

"Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:2) (NLT).

"...Learn not the way of the heathen,..." (Jeremiah 10:2).

But it has Jesus in the holiday and we focus on Jesus, so it is okay, right?

It is written,

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:4).

Paul is saying to bear with them that preach another Jesus. He does not say to embrace another Jesus in whom they have not preached.

The Jesus that is being preached in Christmas is a baby Jesus and how we must give honor to Him by exchanging gifts (sometimes going into debt) around a Christmas tree.

In fact, 9 out of the 11 times the word "tradition" appears in the King James Bible, it is in reference to the traditions of men that were bad and not good (See this link here at BlueLetterBible). In fact, Jesus says that men were transgressing God's commands by their man made traditions. Christmas is a human tradition of man and it is nowhere to be found within the Scriptures; And we are told not to imitate the way of the heathen or the customs of the world. Christmas is very much a custom or celebration of the world.​

#4. True Giving vs Christmas Giving.

Do not give out of compulsion. For Paul says,

"You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.""
(2 Corinthians 9:7) (NLT).

Yet, Christmas is a time where you feel compelled to give out of pressure.

Christmas is also a time when it is about the exchange of gifts.

Yet, Jesus says,
Give without expecting anything in return.
For do not sinners love their own?
For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

"And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what thanks have you? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. (Luke 6:34).

32 "For if you love them who love you, what thanks have you? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if you do good to them who do good to you, what thanks have you? for sinners also do even the same." (Luke 6:32-33).

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." (Luke 6:35).

12 "Then said he also to him that bade him, When you give a dinner or a supper, call not your friends, nor your brethren, neither your kinsmen, nor your rich neighbors; lest they also bid you again, and a recompense be made you.
13 But when you give a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And you shall be blessed; for they cannot recompense you: for you shall be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." (Luke 14:12-14).

8 "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, "This day is salvation come to this house,...""
(Luke 19:8-9).​

#5. The focus of Christmas is materialism and not the worship of Christ on this day.

Most do not actually celebrate Jesus's birth on this day but they actually focus more on the gift giving and the decorating and in celebrating or having a good time with their family. For when the holidays come, do you prepare yourself in prayer, fasting, reading Scripture in order to worship Christ on Christmas? Or are you more focused on buying things for others and in getting together with your family to just have a good time? An insane amount of money is spent on Christmas each year and people have gone into financial debt as a result of it. Others beat each other up in department stores all in the spirit of Christmas. Is such a material focused holiday really something that is of God? How are you honoring Christ's birth truly? Are you focusing on those Scripture verses on the Nativity each year as a family? Do you and your family feel like you are drawing closer to God each year by celebrating the Lord's birth? Or is it more about the stuff with you saying that you are honoring Christ? I say this not to get you or anyone else here upset, but I say this as a means to examine yourself in your walk with the Lord in everything you do. To prove to you that Christmas is not materialistic, just tell your kids next year that they are not getting any gifts and watch their reaction. They have depended on being rich with things and not rich in the things of God. For some even look forward to Christmas just so as to receive money. However, the Bible says,
10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
​

#6. Be ye holy and separate from the world.

Atheists, psychics, and people of many faiths celebrate Christmas. It is the one time of year where everyone gets together to give and whereby some say they are doing it to honor Christ's birth. Everyone is one big happy family celebrating and exchanging gifts and excited over their newly received material goods. Everyone including Christ haters are celebrating Christmas along with Christ lovers. There is even an Atheist Christmas Carol (See here and or here). But the Bible says be ye holy (1 Peter 1:16), and be ye separate (2 Corinthians 6:17). The Bible says what fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14). For it is written,
17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:" (Ephesians 4:17-21).
​

#7. Love not the things of this world.

In 1 John 2:15-17, it says love not the world, neither the things in this world, if any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in them.

Christmas is technically a thing of this world. It is world recognized holiday.
But if you tell people you stopped celebrating Christmas, expect some hateful comments from people. Why?

​

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19).

Colossians 3:1-3 says,

"Since you were raised from the dead with Christ, aim at what is in heaven, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. Think only about the things in heaven, not the things on earth. Your old sinful self has died, and your new life is kept with Christ in God."

Christmas is not something that is celebrated in Heaven. We are to think about the things in Heaven or above and not on the things of this Earth. Our focus should be on building ourselves up in righteousness, love, and faith according to God's Word and not according to the wisdom or ways of men.​

Anyways, I say all this in love and with the hope you will investigate the origins of Christmas on your own and seek the Scriptures with God in deep prayer and fasting on this matter. I know that if you will seek the truth, God will show it to you. Again, I say these things not condemn or hurt anyone but I say these things in love so as to answer the call of God in your Sanctification in being truly holy for the Lord. So..."Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

I am a thess 5:21 man myself and I have lived by that verse for as long as I can remember. I tell people it means not only to question the questionable but to also question the foundational... Which means we must look at what we believe just as hard as we would what someone is telling us.

That said I have gone down this very same path and came to similar conclusions... but then applied thess 5:21 to my conclusions which is where it seems you have stopped.

meaning now that i discovered that dec 25 and 'christmas' was not a biblical holiday, I asked was it wrong to partake in it or share it as it is being shared? the bible does indeed have an answer to this and that is it is completely ok to celebrate Christmas! turn to romans 14 really the whole chapter point at this but more specifically: 5 One person considers one day to be more holy than another. Another person thinks all days are the same. Each of them should be absolutely sure in their own mind. 6 Whoever thinks that one day is special does so to honor the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to honor the Lord. They give thanks to God. And whoever doesn’t eat meat does so to honor the Lord. They also give thanks to God. 7 We don’t live for ourselves only. And we don’t die for ourselves only. 8 If we live, we live to honor the Lord. If we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and came back to life. He did this to become the Lord of both the dead and the living.

So if I think Christmas is holy then to me it is, and it has God's stamp of approval as well, just like if I think the sabbath is not but all days are equal and I give all days to the lord I am no longer bound by the sabbath rules.

 

[Not David]

While I do not have a problem with a believer honoring Christ's birth on their own, to make a secular holiday on his birth alone without mentioning the resurrection is only telling half of the story. People know about his birth and they give gifts to each other, but that's about it. Most really are not worshiping Jesus on this day. It would be nice if they did, but that simply is not the reality we see in this holiday. We see greed, and materialism on this holiday. We see nothing of the teachings of Jesus on this holiday.



All Scripture is profitable doctrine (1 Timothy 3:16-17).



See my post #73.



It's not describing furniture in Jeremiah 10. It is talking about trees that they would decorate as a part of tree worship. Deuteronomy 16 was just one way to prevent the Israelites from even getting close to being tempted to be involved in tree worship.

Tree worship is a real thing through out history. Even if you wanted these verses not to be about tree worship that did take place in Bible times, it still was a problem and would have been condemned by God's Word regardless. Druids today are involved in regarding trees as sacred or magical objects. Wreaths and mistletoes all come from pagan origins.



Do you believe every organization that talks about Jesus is telling the whole truth about Jesus? Paul talks about those who preach another Jesus. This is another Jesus being preached here because they leave out the resurrection, they place his birth at the wrong time during the worship of other pagan gods, they focus on greed and materialism on this day (Which runs contrary to the teachings of Jesus).



If you move the letter "n" in Santa to the end... it spells the name of the enemy of God's people. Nicholas is similar to the name of the Nicolaitans in the Bible.

In Revelation 2:6, Jesus says this about them:

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

Also, just because somebody gives gifts does not make them a good person.
Jesus said in Matthew 7:11 that a person can be evil and give good gifts.



Perhaps there a few small select groups or a few rare people who actually do worship and pray and honor Jesus during Christmas, but even if they do so, they are in the minority. Most do not celebrate it in this way. But even if the majority people did worship and honor Christ's birth (with no mention of His resurrection), it is not something we are specifically instructed to do within His Word. While I am not against honoring our Lord's birth, it would be in light or view of the fact that He is our risen Lord now and not just a baby in a manger. Jesus was also not born on December 25th during the time of many pagan gods. The Bible strongly suggests in light of the Talmud that the Lord was actually born on Nisan 1 (the Jewish New Year) whereby He makes all things new. The problem here is going outside of God's Word when it comes to worshiping Him. Cain tried to worship God his own way that God did not instruct Him to do. His offering was not accepted by God.



But sin and worldly desires is what takes place on Christmas.
It is about greed and materialism.
Maybe your version of Christmas is a little different, but an elite group or a few small individuals is not going to change how the holiday is generally celebrated by most.



Nowhere does it say that Jesus was at a drunken Wedding party with him joining in on that.



Which is exactly my point. The Christmas holiday is geared towards materialism and greed. It is world recognized holiday.



Not the same Jesus. Paul says if someone preaches another Jesus in whom we have not preached... bear with them. Paul never preached about a Jesus whereby we...

(a) Worship Him as a baby (leaving out His resurrection).
(b) Recognize that He was born on December 25th.
(c) Celebrate Jesus by us giving gifts to each other in such way that contradicted the teachings of Jesus.

You give really good points most of the time Jason, but do you really think switching letters with one's name is a symbol of the devil?
Also, you said that we don't care about the resurrection but the Birth, but I guess Matthew and Luke should have omitted that and they are making others stumble by mentioning his birth.

 

[Kerensa]

Christmas itself is a holiday that does not teach the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Others may do so, but the holiday itself does not do so.

There are quite a few Christmas carols, old and new, that do point to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. But regardless of that, why not celebrate his birth, the Incarnation? If he hadn't been born on earth in the first place, there would have been no resurrection either... (Incidentally, while the Bible certainly shows the apostles preaching the resurrection of Jesus, nowhere does it say that we need to commemorate that event on its anniversary (or thereabouts) with a festival. I hope, for consistency's sake, that you're also against celebrating Easter.)

So if you knew no other Christians and you did not investigate Christianity outside of Christmas, you would never truly know about a risen Lord. Therein is the problem with Christmas.

No it's not — another non sequitur. If someone who's not a Christian is nevertheless drawn to the story of Jesus' birth and wants to find out more about why this baby in a manger was/is special, he or she will naturally learn about the resurrection pretty quickly. Christmas is not stopping anyone from doing that. It is quite possibly pointing them to it. It did for me as a child, even in a very secular family.

Honestly, the only "problems" with Christmas are the ones you are making with it. Going by what you've been posting, it seems it's only in the past few days that you've been doing some research and come to the conclusion that Christmas is "wrong" and now you feel the need to tell everyone who celebrates it that they are wrong, over and over and over. Again, if you choose not to celebrate Christmas, that's fine. But to berate those who do choose to celebrate it, is not fine. Seriously, is this a matter of life and death? Is God going to send Christians to hell because they celebrate Christmas? If so, that's probably over 99% of us gone.

 

[Ken Rank]

I see. But would that be a heresy in the religious sense (which would be the only sense to matter in this case) or just something else that's unacceptable, wrong, improper, etc.?

It is a word with many meanings. Clearly "sect" in Acts 15:5 (hairesis is the underlying Greek), a bad "choice" in Acts 24:14, but in this verse... I see information by force, manipulation:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

 

[Barney2.0]

No it doesn't it only shows you do not know your history and are putting Justin Martyr over God's WORD when christians met every day of the week. Please once again with your new claim show where it says in God's WORD alone that "The LORD'S DAY is Sunday or the first day of the week. This is another chatholic teaching that is not in the bible. Now can you show me the scriptures to support your claims?

Find me scripture that says we should only depend on scripture?

 

[Der Alte]

This is what you claimed the pope's letter to Augustine said.

begin

<Mal>Christmas is not Biblical, a little history lesson:
When the Catholic church of Rome was converting the Anglo-Saxons of England in 597AD, they sent a Saint Augustine. A letter from the Pope instructed him to use pagan rituals and holy days and convert them to Christian, to make the transition to Christianity easier. One such holy day was yule, which was the Anglo-Saxon pagan festival of the new year.
"Celebration of the Norse New Year; a festival of 12 nights. This is the most important of all the Norse holidays. On the night of December 20, the god Ingvi Freyr rides over the earth on the back of his shining boar, bringing Light and Love back into the World. In later years, after the influence of Christianity, the god Baldur, then Jesus, was reborn at this festival. Jul signifies the beginning and end of all things; the darkest time (shortest hour of daylight) during the year and the brightest hope re-entering the world. During this festival, the Wild Hunt is at its greatest fervor, and the dead are said to range the Earth in its retinue. The god Wotan (Odin) is the leader of this Wild Ride; charging across the sky on his eight-legged horse, Sleipnir; a very awe-inspiring vision. In ancient times, Germanic and Norse children would leave their boots out by the hearth on Solstice Eve, filled with hay and sugar, for Sleipnir's journey. In return, Wotan would leave them a gift for their kindness. In modern times, Sleipnir was changed to a reindeer and the grey-bearded Wotan became the kindly Santa Claus (Father Christmas)."<end>

end

Here is a copy of the actual letter nothing highlighted in red in the previous letter appears in the actual letter.

begin

<MLK>A COPY OF THE LETTER WHICH POPE GREGORY SENT TO THE ABBOT MELLITUS, THEN GOING INTO BRITAIN. [A.D. 601.]
"To his most beloved son, the Abbot Mellitus; Gregory, the servant of the servants of God. We have been much concerned, since the departure of our congregation that is with you, because we have received no account of the success of your journey. When, therefore, Almighty God shall bring you to the most reverend Bishop Augustine, our brother, tell him what I have, upon mature deliberation on the affair of the English, determined upon, viz., that the temples of the idols in that nation ought not to be destroyed; but let the idols that are in them be destroyed; let holy water be made and sprinkled in the said temples, let altars be erected, and relics placed. For if those temples are well built, it is requisite that they be converted from the worship of devils to the service of the true God; that the nation, seeing that their temples are not destroyed, may remove error from their hearts, and knowing and adoring the true God, may the more familiarly resort to the places to which they have been accustomed. And because they have been used to slaughter many oxen in the sacrifices to devils, some solemnity must be exchanged for them on this account, as that on the day of the dedication, or the nativities of the holy martyrs, whose relics are there deposited, they may build themselves huts of the boughs of trees, about those churches which have been turned to that use from temples, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasting, and no more offer beasts to the Devil, but kill cattle to the praise of God in their eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all things for their sustenance; to the end that, whilst some gratifications are outwardly permitted them, they may the more easily consent to the inward consolations of the grace of God. For there is no doubt that it is impossible to efface everything at once from their obdurate minds; because he who endeavours to ascend to the highest place, rises by degrees or steps, and not by leaps. Thus the Lord made Himself known to the people of Israel in Egypt; and yet He allowed them the use of the sacrifices which they were wont to offer to the Devil, in his own worship; so as to command them in his sacrifice to kill beasts, to the end that, changing their hearts, they might lay aside one part of the sacrifice, whilst they retained another; that whilst they offered the same beasts which they were wont to offer, they should offer them to God, and not to idols; and thus they would no longer be the same sacrifices. This it behooves your affection to communicate to our aforesaid brother, that he, being there present, may consider how he is to order all things. God preserve you in safety, most beloved son. Given the 17th of June, in the nineteenth year of the reign of our lord, the most pious emperor, Mauritius Tiberius, the eighteenth year after the consulship of our said lord. The fourth indiction."<end>

end

Apparently the most questionable thing that the pope said in the letter was let the Anglo-Saxons retain the pagan temples but destroy the idols.

 

[Not David]

This is what you claimed the pope's letter to Augustine said.
<Mal>Christmas is not Biblical, a little history lesson:
When the Catholic church of Rome was converting the Anglo-Saxons of England in 597AD, they sent a Saint Augustine. A letter from the Pope instructed him to use pagan rituals and holy days and convert them to Christian, to make the transition to Christianity easier. One such holy day was yule, which was the Anglo-Saxon pagan festival of the new year.
"Celebration of the Norse New Year; a festival of 12 nights. This is the most important of all the Norse holidays. On the night of December 20, the god Ingvi Freyr rides over the earth on the back of his shining boar, bringing Light and Love back into the World. In later years, after the influence of Christianity, the god Baldur, then Jesus, was reborn at this festival. Jul signifies the beginning and end of all things; the darkest time (shortest hour of daylight) during the year and the brightest hope re-entering the world. During this festival, the Wild Hunt is at its greatest fervor, and the dead are said to range the Earth in its retinue. The god Wotan (Odin) is the leader of this Wild Ride; charging across the sky on his eight-legged horse, Sleipnir; a very awe-inspiring vision. In ancient times, Germanic and Norse children would leave their boots out by the hearth on Solstice Eve, filled with hay and sugar, for Sleipnir's journey. In return, Wotan would leave them a gift for their kindness. In modern times, Sleipnir was changed to a reindeer and the grey-bearded Wotan became the kindly Santa Claus (Father Christmas)."<end>
Here is a copy of the actual letter nothing highlighted in red in the previous letter appears in the actual letter.
<MLK>A COPY OF THE LETTER WHICH POPE GREGORY SENT TO THE ABBOT MELLITUS, THEN GOING INTO BRITAIN. [A.D. 601.]
"To his most beloved son, the Abbot Mellitus; Gregory, the servant of the servants of God. We have been much concerned, since the departure of our congregation that is with you, because we have received no account of the success of your journey. When, therefore, Almighty God shall bring you to the most reverend Bishop Augustine, our brother, tell him what I have, upon mature deliberation on the affair of the English, determined upon, viz., that the temples of the idols in that nation ought not to be destroyed; but let the idols that are in them be destroyed; let holy water be made and sprinkled in the said temples, let altars be erected, and relics placed. For if those temples are well built, it is requisite that they be converted from the worship of devils to the service of the true God; that the nation, seeing that their temples are not destroyed, may remove error from their hearts, and knowing and adoring the true God, may the more familiarly resort to the places to which they have been accustomed. And because they have been used to slaughter many oxen in the sacrifices to devils, some solemnity must be exchanged for them on this account, as that on the day of the dedication, or the nativities of the holy martyrs, whose relics are there deposited, they may build themselves huts of the boughs of trees, about those churches which have been turned to that use from temples, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasting, and no more offer beasts to the Devil, but kill cattle to the praise of God in their eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all things for their sustenance; to the end that, whilst some gratifications are outwardly permitted them, they may the more easily consent to the inward consolations of the grace of God. For there is no doubt that it is impossible to efface everything at once from their obdurate minds; because he who endeavours to ascend to the highest place, rises by degrees or steps, and not by leaps. Thus the Lord made Himself known to the people of Israel in Egypt; and yet He allowed them the use of the sacrifices which they were wont to offer to the Devil, in his own worship; so as to command them in his sacrifice to kill beasts, to the end that, changing their hearts, they might lay aside one part of the sacrifice, whilst they retained another; that whilst they offered the same beasts which they were wont to offer, they should offer them to God, and not to idols; and thus they would no longer be the same sacrifices. This it behooves your affection to communicate to our aforesaid brother, that he, being there present, may consider how he is to order all things. God preserve you in safety, most beloved son. Given the 17th of June, in the nineteenth year of the reign of our lord, the most pious emperor, Mauritius Tiberius, the eighteenth year after the consulship of our said lord. The fourth indiction."<end>
Apparently the most questionable thing that the pope said in the letter was let the Anglo-Saxons retain the pagan temples but destroy the idols.

Wait, so the letter was falsified in order to make Christmas seem pagan?

 

[FireDragon76]

Neither is celebrating the Resurrection yearly or any of the other things done around the year by the church in the Bible. But that doesn't mean the early Christians didn't do them.

We Lutherans don't consider it a sin exactly if Christians don't celebrate Easter or Christmas on the dates we do, or in the way we do, but it is wrong to say that the Church has no authority to institute rites or ceremonies of its own, merely because there is no explicit biblical command to do so.

 

[Invalidusername]

It is a word with many meanings. Clearly "sect" in Acts 15:5 (hairesis is the underlying Greek), a bad "choice" in Acts 24:14, but in this verse... I see information by force, manipulation:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

I like your approach. I do get a bad vibe from Jason's posts. Almost like pride is oozing through his posts and he enjoys the conflict/strife this thread brings.

 

[Kaon]

First off, it's a strawman to say Christians are deifying or attributing anything divine to the sun. No one is doing that.

You miss the point of 'converting' pagan symbols. It's the freedom of Christ and the love for Truth that Christians are not bound by pagan use of symbols. Christians are free to see the truth of Christ wherever it is found. It isn't bowing to paganism to point the truth in myth to it's true object, but the opposite. Christ puts the symbols of truth in their proper place.

I never said Christians deify the sun; I said people were deifying hundreds of years before the Redeemer came as a Son of Man - specifically on December 25 (more or less), distorting astronomy into astrology and associating this astronomical event with a deity. Why even associate with a pagan celebration in the first place? It isn't our job to change dark to light. Out of all of the holy days that the Word of God Himself, and the Most High God listed (ones we blithely ignore), where did the Word of God ever say to celebrate His birthday?

When did He ever tell us, or His disciples His birth day? Mithraism celebrated their sun god born of a virgin on the 25th of December since 1400bc (on record). Christians often have to apologize for this...issue, because the Church has been lazy in their disdain for paganism and idolatry. But His birth isn't the important part; we have know He would be born since Adam. But, this hijacking of prophecy has been happening since the beginning (which is why the "oldest record" issue is comical when terming what is oldest ever).

There is also nothing Hebrew, or Christian about decking a pyramidal wintergreen for the purposes of celebrating the Redeemer. There is nothing about putting a star (Sol) at the top, or giving gifts related to the birth of Christ; the Wise/Magi brought gifts to the Redeemer after he was already born and breathing for a while. The connections are distorted, because they were a combination of pagan and Christian ideas. Instead of completely rending Rome through religious upheaval, it was better to combine the holidays of all cultures and celebrate days together - as a nation.


As someone in this thread has already said, the focus of Christmas isn't about the resurrection - it is about the birth of Christ. Is it the culture of the Hebrews to celebrate their birthdays? And, the holy day is completely commercialized and full of idolatry for a reason; Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, and/or Sukkot are not commercialized for a reason. All of the holy days the Most High listed for us are in the spring, or fall. None are in the winter. The activities of Christ happen in the spring (Sacrifice and Resurrection) and fall (Judgement and the Wedding); not the winter.

 

[Not David]

I never said Christians deify the sun; I said people were deifying hundreds of years before the Redeemer came as a Son of Man - specifically on December 25 (more or less), distorting astronomy into astrology and associating this astronomical event with a deity. Why even associate with a pagan celebration in the first place? It isn't our job to change dark to light. Out of all of the holy days that the Word of God Himself, and the Most High God listed (ones we blithely ignore), where did the Word of God ever say to celebrate His birthday?

When did He ever tell us, or His disciples His birth day? Mithraism celebrated their sun god born of a virgin on the 25th of December since 1400bc (on record). Christians often have to apologize for this...issue, because the Church has been lazy in their disdain for paganism and idolatry. But His birth isn't the important part; we have know He would be born since Adam. But, this hijacking of prophecy has been happening since the beginning (which is why the "oldest record" issue is comical when terming what is oldest ever).

There is also nothing Hebrew, or Christian about decking a pyramidal wintergreen for the purposes of celebrating the Redeemer. There is nothing about putting a star (Sol) at the top, or giving gifts related to the birth of Christ; the Wise/Magi brought gifts to the Redeemer after he was already born and breathing for a while. The connections are distorted, because they were a combination of pagan and Christian ideas. Instead of completely rending Rome through religious upheaval, it was better to combine the holidays of all cultures and celebrate days together - as a nation.


As someone in this thread has already said, the focus of Christmas isn't about the resurrection - it is about the birth of Christ. Is it the culture of the Hebrews to celebrate their birthdays? And, the holy day is completely commercialized and full of idolatry for a reason; Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, and/or Sukkot are not commercialized for a reason. All of the holy days the Most High listed for us are in the spring, or fall. None are in the winter. The activities of Christ happen in the spring (Sacrifice and Resurrection) and fall (Judgement and the Wedding); not the winter.

Most of the stuff you said is taken for the Anti-Christian Christ Myth Theory that everything related Christianity is a rip off from pagan myths.
Also, we aren't Jews but Christians, and they deny Christ so what does it matter?