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Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

Albion

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Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs. In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder.

Source:
https://www.history.com/topics/christmas/history-of-christmas-trees

The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands to symbolize eternal life was a custom of the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the Devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime. It survived further in the custom, also observed in Germany, of placing a Yule tree at an entrance or inside the house during the midwinter holidays.

Source:
Christmas tree | Tradition & History

During the Roman mid-winter festival of Saturnalia, houses were decorated with wreaths of evergreen plants, along with other antecedent customs now associated with Christmas.

Source:
Christmas tree - Wikipedia
Yes, I know all that, but it still does not verify your claims. In fact, none of those articles gives the complete story. For one thing, the fact that other peoples used trees of some variety in some way does not in itself mean that the Christian use is the same.
 
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Eloy Craft

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I think you missed the point of the post which was discussing the pagan origin of Sun worship and Sunday which was in discussion with the op. Yes Christians were worshipping God on everyday of the week. That was not the point of the post however.
The first Christians woke up before sunrise and broke bread as the sun rose up from the horizon and shed light on the land. It certainly wasn't pagan to see the sun rise as creation it'self celebrating the Resurrection of Our Lord. The Sun has been sanctified as a symbol of the light of Christ.

Revelation 1:16
In his right hand he held seven stars, and from his mouth came a sharp, two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining with full force.

Revelation 7:2
I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea,

Revelation 12:1
[ The Woman and the Dragon ] A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
 
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Kaon

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The first Christians woke up before sunrise and broke bread as the sun rose up from the horizon and shed light on the land. It certainly wasn't pagan to see the sun rise as creation it'self celebrating the Resurrection of Our Lord. The Sun has been sanctified as a symbol of the light of Christ.

Revelation 1:16
In his right hand he held seven stars, and from his mouth came a sharp, two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining with full force.

Revelation 7:2
I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea,

Revelation 12:1
[ The Woman and the Dragon ] A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

The sun was given to us to determine signs and seasons. We were suppose to time the duration of days, beginning of the year, seasons and other astronomical events sanctions by the Most High God (e.g. prophecy). We were not supposed to celebrate the sun, deify it, or attribute the sun to life more than the solar flux it produces to power the life on this plane of existence mechanically.

The examples you gave were metaphor; Christ is described as being clothed with light - this is related to the raiment of light the Saints receive. This woman is the Church (good, light-shining "women" in the bible are good churches; harlots are evil churches). The Church (which was always Hebrew believers pre-Christ to Hebrew believers and Gentiles post-Christ) "birthed" a Child (the Redeemer) who was caught up (resurrected). The dragon became wroth, and sent a flood after the Woman (Church). She was given wings, and the dragon made war with the remnant of her seed (us).


Sol, however, was a Roman god celebrated at least a century before Christ, and "Invictus Sol" was celebrated on the 25th at least a century before the date was adopted as the birth date of the Christ, and even before Constantine legalized Christianity.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Not that it matters, but just as compelling a case or even better is that he was born on the first day of Sukkot and circumcised on the last Great (and 8th) day. But it is one or the other, Passover or Tabernacles and not December. But so what? If somebody wants to honor God on that day or ANY other.... isn't it their business? Isn't it between them and God? I know people who fast on their baptism day... are they in error or are they simply setting a day aside for God?

Truth does matter. If truth did not matter we can just worship whoever we like and however we feel like. But it doesn't work like that. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus said that believers will worship Him in spirit and in truth (See John 4:24). Yet, you essentially are saying it does not matter if we worship in truth.

Imagine if people decided to celebrate your birthday on a day you were not born. In fact, they make it on the worst possible day you can think of like say a day that you absolutely find to be a horrible day in human history. Then to top it off, they used things you know you specifically did not like on that day to celebrate your birth. Now, imagine how God feels and people are saying they are worshiping Him by doing this.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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That is exactly correct. This is for @Jason0047 as well.

Heresy TODAY is defined as not agreeing with the Orthodoxy or Mainstream view. But if you look up the Greek word we get heresy from, and in a Thayer or Liddel Scott lexicon, you'll find it means, "to storm a city, to take by force." The idea of force is behind the word and even though we don't storm a city, we can try to force others to believe as we do. And, even if we are correct, if you are trying to force or manipulate others to accept our view.... we are heretics. We have to watch out for that! Legalism and heresy... they both come out of trying to get others to accept our views.
There is this greek word:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
139. hairesis hah'-ee-res-is from 138; properly, a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion:--heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect.
138. haireomai hahee-reh'-om-ahee probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

My bro Paul was looked at as a "heretic" by the Pharisees and Sadducees
[They of course disappeared after the destruction of 70ad Jerusalem as shown in Revelation]


Acts15:5
and there rose up certain of those of the sect<139> of the Pharisees who believed, saying -- 'It behoveth to circumcise them, to command them also to keep the law of Moses.'
Acts 24:5
for having found this man a pestilence, and moving a dissension to all the Jews through the world --
a ringleader also of the sect<139> of the Nazarenes --


2 Peter 2:1
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects<139>,
and the Owner/Master<1203> who bought them denying/disowning/arnou-menoi <720> (5740), bringing to themselves quick destruction

[Jeremiah 14:14-15/Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4/Revelation 6:10]

Revelation 6:10
And they cry out to a great Voice saying "how long, the Owner/Master<1203>, the Holy and True One,
not Thou are judging and avenging the blood of us from out of the ones homing upon the land?"
heretic - Search results - Wikipedia
Heresy (/ˈhɛrəsi/) is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs.[1] Heresy is distinct from both apostasy, which is the explicit renunciation of one's religion, principles or cause,[2] and blasphemy, which is an impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.[3]

The term is usually used to refer to violations of important religious teachings, but is used also of views strongly opposed to any generally accepted ideas.[4] It is used in particular in reference to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.[5]

In certain historical Christian, Islamic and Jewish cultures, among others, espousing ideas deemed heretical has been and in some cases still is subjected not merely to punishments such as excommunication, but even the death penalty.

Six Heretics Who Should Be Banned...
Six Heretics Who Should Be Banned...
 
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Eloy Craft

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First off, it's a strawman to say Christians are deifying or attributing anything divine to the sun. No one is doing that.

You miss the point of 'converting' pagan symbols. It's the freedom of Christ and the love for Truth that Christians are not bound by pagan use of symbols. Christians are free to see the truth of Christ wherever it is found. It isn't bowing to paganism to point the truth in myth to it's true object, but the opposite. Christ puts the symbols of truth in their proper place.
 
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Albion

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Indeed. In the cases of both the alleged copying of days and copying trees, the Christians were actually rebutting the pagans involved. This was more like 'In your face' one-upmanship by the Christians than any sort of getting on the pagan bandwagon. Yet today's critics cannot see that.
 
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AnnaDeborah

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Something I have been thinking about - many people DO regard Christmas as Christian. That's why so many secularists are pushing for 'WinterFestival' and other names, because they hate that the word Christmas has Christ's name in it.

I worked in an office which had a mix of atheists, Hindu, Moslem, Jehovah's Witness and Christian staff. My manager told me I was not to mention 'Christmas' at all because it could be offensive to those of other faiths or no faith. A few of my colleagues were happy to see this happen, but most of them were outraged and defended my right to celebrate Christmas. But every single person, whether they supported my right to celebrate or opposed it, did so because it was a 'faith event'. So yes, I do think that many people still think that Christmas is about Christianity.

I also have a lot of people talking about their Christmas (presents, food, drink, parties) to me and then they would say 'of course, it's different for you isn't it?' or 'this isn't what Christmas is really meant to be about, is it?' So it seems many people recognise a 'true' Christmas that has nothing to do with their partying and excess. It's interesting that so many unbelievers can see such a clear distinction between the Christian Christmas and the world's Christmas.
 
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Ken Rank

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There is this greek word:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
139. hairesis hah'-ee-res-is from 138; properly, a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion:--heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect.
138. haireomai hahee-reh'-om-ahee probably akin to 142; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

My bro Paul was looked at as a "heretic" by the Pharisees and Sadducees
[They of course disappeared after the destruction of 70ad Jerusalem as shown in Revelation]


Acts15:5
and there rose up certain of those of the sect<139> of the Pharisees who believed, saying -- 'It behoveth to circumcise them, to command them also to keep the law of Moses.'
Acts 24:5
for having found this man a pestilence, and moving a dissension to all the Jews through the world --
a ringleader also of the sect<139> of the Nazarenes --


2 Peter 2:1
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects<139>,
and the Owner/Master<1203> who bought them denying/disowning/arnou-menoi <720> (5740), bringing to themselves quick destruction

[Jeremiah 14:14-15/Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4/Revelation 6:10]

Revelation 6:10
And they cry out to a great Voice saying "how long, the Owner/Master<1203>, the Holy and True One,
not Thou are judging and avenging the blood of us from out of the ones homing upon the land?"


Six Heretics Who Should Be Banned...
Six Heretics Who Should Be Banned...
G139
αἵρεσις
hairesis
Thayer Definition:
1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2) choosing, choice
3) that which is chosen
4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
4a) of the Sadducees
4b) of the Pharisees
4c) of the Christians
5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G138

Liddell-Scott adds "to take by force." I admit that "choice" is a major factor with this word. One doesn't storm a city filled with people they agree with. But the modern definition ONLY means choice, whereas the FIRST definition in the first century dealt with force. I can show it being used as force, as choice, and as sect in the NT.
 
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Kerensa

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aiki

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We are not talking about your birth day celebration. We are talking about how man thinks we need to celebrate the birth date of our Lord Jesus Christ in the way that he decides (When nothing is ever mentioned of it in Scripture).

Yes, and as I said, my birthday isn't mentioned in Scripture, either. Yet I, and my family, and friends celebrate my birthday every year. Sometimes, if circumstances require it, I won't even celebrate my birthday on the day of my birth but a few days earlier or later. The date isn't super important; it's the celebration that is.

The problem is that people are adding to God's Word based in what they think Jesus should be about based upon the traditions of men. They say lets worship His birth on December 25th. But Jesus was actually born on Nisan 1 (the beginning of the Hebrew calendar year).

How is celebrating Christmas "adding to God's word"? I don't know anyone who thinks Christmas is part of the canon of Scripture. And the Christmas I celebrate revolves around the Gospel accounts of Christ's birth, not the "traditions of men."

It doesn't matter what people do with that holiday. The point is what does the holiday itself teach?

A holiday is a non-sentient thing; it doesn't teach anyone anything. There isn't a published "Christmas Beliefs and Rules" that everyone follows. So, what do you mean, then, by the holiday itself teaching? In a free society, the Christmas holiday is whatever a person wants to make of it. That's part of what makes it a holiday.

And it does matter what people do with the holiday. That's really at the heart of your problem with Christmas. You want Christmas to be this monolithically worldly and even pagan event that everyone celebrates identically as such so you can discard it wholesale. And this is why I call "Legalism!" on your thinking. I don't do with Christmas what secular people do with it; I don't do with Christmas what pagans may have done with it; I don't even do with Christmas what many other Christians do with it. And I am not alone in the Christ-centered, God-honoring way I celebrate Jesus' birth. Your attempt, then, to condemn Christmas across-the-board as an evil holiday just doesn't recognize the actual facts of the matter. You are, essentially, indulging in one big Strawman argument.

Christmas itself is a holiday that does not teach the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Others may do so, but the holiday itself does not do so.

The holiday is what a person makes of it. There is no universal Christmas Code we all must conform to. You are erecting a Strawman of Christmas that you have made conveniently susceptible to your arguments (which is the whole point of a Strawman) but your Strawman version of Christmas isn't my version of Christmas. And so, your Strawman argument falls quite flat.

When I was a kid, I know of Jesus being born, Santa, Christmas tree, and receiving stuff. That was my idea of Christmas because that is all I knew the holiday to actually teach. The holiday itself did not teach anything more than that. I did not even learn that Jesus is God even. We would sing Christian songs around the Christmas tree. Have the name Jesus on our fireplace, but I was never told who Jesus was as a part of that holiday. Why? Because the holiday itself never taught such a thing.

This is what is known as a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that because your childhood experience of Christmas was a particular way that it was therefore characteristic of Christmas generally. I was raised in a home that emphasized Christ at Christmas. And, as I already pointed out, the holiday is whatever people make of it. There is no set of Christmas Rules and Regulations that those observing Christmas must follow.

Anyways, while I am happy that you had an experience that shows Christ's birth in relation to His atoning work as the Lamb of God, this is not what the holiday itself teaches.

Says who? You? Who made you the Final Arbiter of what Christmas is? You don't have the authority to dictate to me how Christmas is or "what the holiday teaches." I keep Christmas as I like, not according to what others may do. You and all believers are free to do the same.

So if you knew no other Christians and you did not investigate Christianity outside of Christmas, you would never truly know about a risen Lord. Therein is the problem with Christmas.

This is merely an assumption you're making based upon your Strawman version of Christmas. A friend of mine visited Disneyland last year with his family during the December holidays. He told me that there weren't just secular Christmas carols, like "White Christmas," or "Jingle Bells" played over the P.A system but "We Three Kings," and "O Little Town of Bethlehem," and "Silent Night." He said that the Nativity was enacted twice a day. Now, Disneyland may not have pointed directly to Easter in its Christmas festivities but given Disney's secular orientation, the focus on Christ was remarkable - and rather contrary to what you're arguing about the general trends of Christmas.

That and it teaches Jesus is born on a day alongside other pagan gods and we can also receive gifts from a man named Santa, too. So when some kids grow up and they learn that Santa is not real, they can then naturally think Jesus is not real, either.

I have never heard at Christmas the idea that other gods were born alongside Jesus. The truth, though, is that over the centuries, many, many people have been born on the same day as Jesus. What of it? Christmas isn't about the birthdays of these other people but about the birth of Jesus.

I know of no one who grew up hearing stories of Santa who denied Jesus as a result. Adults are usually able to distinguish fiction from actual history; they can tell the difference between a fantastical character and a real, historical figure, like Jesus.

The difference is that Jesus is God and we are not. Jesus is worshiped and we are not worshiped. So when we change the birth date of our Lord to a date of other pagan gods are worshiped instead of on his true birth date, it is an attempt to say to people (who know to worship Him) that we should worship Jesus in a way that is not true or based upon man's traditions and saying we can worship Jesus alongside other pagan gods because He is no different.

This is entirely assumption on your part, another Strawman, about what people may or may not think about Christmas. I have never heard Christians talk about Christmas and relate it to the worship of pagan deities or suggest Jesus is "no different" from them - except for those legalistic Christians who want to extend their self-righteous rules over others. Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth. Period. It has nothing whatever to do with pagan worship. This is how Christmas is understood among the Christians with whom I regularly associate.

I mean, where do you think Christmas comes from?

For me, it comes from the Bible that tells me that God became a Man some 2000 years ago. It is the Incarnation of God that I celebrate at Christmas.

Why do you think they call it Christmas? Christ-mass. It's the celebration of the mass of Christ. So unless you are Catholic, I do not see why you want to celebrate Christmas.

Because, obviously, I don't celebrate Christmas in a Catholic way. You are guilty here of committing the Genetic Fallacy. If a child is born from rape, is that child forever stained by the evil nature of his conception? If the child lives an exemplary life, moral and God-honoring, does he remain unchangeably the evil by-product of an evil act? Of course not. The child's origin has nothing to do with who he is. The child can't control how he came to be, but he can control who he is. To fail to recognize this, to condemn the child as a consequence of his origin, is to commit the Genetic Fallacy. This is exactly what you're doing with Christmas. You are condemning Christmas as a consequence of its (possible) origins and refusing to acknowledge that Christmas can - and does - stand today entirely independent of those origins.

Actually, God's Word tells us how we are to worship Him within His Word. Christmas teaches contrary to what His Word says.

1. Bible suggests Jesus is born Nisan 1, Christmas says Dec. 25th with pagan gods.
2. Bible says putting up trees and decorating them is a problem, Christmas says it is not a problem.
3. Bible says we are not to just give to loved ones alone but we are to give to the poor, and or lend without expecting anything in return, Christmas says to give and also expect to receive something. In fact, it teaches greed and materialism.

1. The Bible doesn't stipulate a specific day of Christ's birth. In fact, the story of the Nativity happens over many months. Jesus was not a newborn when the Wise Men found him in the stable. In any case, at Christmas I celebrate, not the day of Christ's birth, but the birth of Christ himself. And so, the date on which I do so is not particularly important.
2. The Bible says putting up trees and decorating them for the purposes of pagan worship is wrong. The Bible says nothing at all about decorating trees for other purposes.
3. Many churches, families and businesses give food and gift hampers to the needy at Christmas. There is no expectation whatever of getting something in return from those poor who receive them. Christmas is not, then, always and only a selfish, consumerist event like the Strawman version of Christmas you're arguing from.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Imagine if people decided to celebrate your birthday on a day you were not born.
I would be happy people are celebrating the fact that I was born.
 
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Cement

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Even if it incorporated pagan elements from the converted Christians I will not give Christmas away to the Pagans because of this. The only ones really complaining are mostly the Pagans themselves.
 
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Ken Rank

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Truth does matter. If truth did not matter we can just worship whoever we like and however we feel like. But it doesn't work like that. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus said that believers will worship Him in spirit and in truth (See John 4:24). Yet, you essentially are saying it does not matter if we worship in truth.

Imagine if people decided to celebrate your birthday on a day you were not born. In fact, they make it on the worst possible day you can think of like say a day that you absolutely find to be a horrible day in human history. Then to top it off, they used things you know you specifically did not like on that day to celebrate your birth. Now, imagine how God feels and people are saying they are worshiping Him by doing this.
It isn't up to you how somebody honors God, it is between them and God. They aren't in rebellion Jason... if anything they are simply wrong about a fact. But it is a non-consequential fact at best. Are you without fault? Have you already been perfected? No... yet you are looking to police how others express themselves before their own God? If somebody who celebrates Yeshua's birth on December 25th was using that day to pull people away from God, then we would have an obligation to stand up. But if a person is simply using that day to honor his birth... and trust me, Cahn's argument while better than most about Nisan 1 isn't without holes.... then why is it your business? Until you are perfected you remain imperfect and if you want to lay down all the beliefs you have I promise you I can prove you to be wrong in places you know that you know that you know you are correct! And you can probably do the same to me. A Christian celebrating Christ's birth on December 25th is wrong about the date... but not about their love for HIM. Who are you (or anyone else) to come in and rob them of their joy in honoring him? How is THAT not a sin?
 
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ArmenianJohn

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The birthdate of Jesus Christ revealed according to Scripture:


Hint: It's not December 25th!
Christmas isn't even Dec. 25th. It's January 6th.
 
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Ken Rank

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Even if it incorporated pagan elements from the converted Christians I will not give Christmas away to the Pagans because of this. The only ones really complaining are mostly the Pagans themselves.
You're right.... who attacks Christmas? Atheists and a minority of Christian types who think they are finding pagans under every rock. But mostly, atheists, secularists... the Christians who set the day aside have great joy and uplift the Lord in song and in their heart. The "world" wants to take that away and call it something else, give it a different meaning and THAT speaks very loudly to me and I don't even keep Christmas myself.
 
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Ken Rank

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Christmas isn't even Dec. 25th. It's January 6th.
Traditional date yes... but not his birthday either. It wasn't in the winter, that is very easily provable in Scripture. Now, celebrate it whenever you want, I really don't care... but don't get too dogmatic about him being born in the winter because it's a strawman that will fall over really easy. :)
 
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Albion

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Liddell-Scott adds "to take by force." I admit that "choice" is a major factor with this word. One doesn't storm a city filled with people they agree with. But the modern definition ONLY means choice, whereas the FIRST definition in the first century dealt with force. I can show it being used as force, as choice, and as sect in the NT.
I'm afraid that I don't get the point there. A heretic is one who has made the choice to walk apart and makes claims upon/about the original (orthodox) body of believers to the extent that the heretic claims to be orthodox and says the larger body is not orthodox. That's why he chooses to walk apart from it. And usually this results in a new sect being formed around the (heretical) choice.
 
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ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
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Oriental Orthodox
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Politics
US-Democrat
Important Note:
(Please read this before posting and or reading the rest of my OP):
[SNIP - tl;dr].​
No need to read this. I would never argue that Christmas is "Biblical" because it's not. It's a Christian (or Church) tradition. It's certainly not mandatory to celebrate it or anything like that. But it's a remembrance of Christ's Nativity. The miracle and mystery of Christ is that He is "Emmanuel", God with us (man). The Incarnation of Christ is central to Christianity. So whether or not you celebrate Christmas, or how you choose to do it, is up to each person.

But the fact that Christmas is not "Biblical" doesn't make unimportant and certainly doesn't make it "wrong" in any way.
 
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