Why I keep the Sabbath

And once again, Acts 15 dealt with circumcision.
What grown man wants to deal with circumcision? I'm a girl, and it sounds painful to me, even.
I doubt anyone involved was thinking of the ten commandments...they were all Jews, and had kept them all their lives.
It would be like telling you to remember to breathe...

Angelquill said:

And once again, Acts 15 dealt with circumcision.
What grown man wants to deal with circumcision? I'm a girl, and it sounds painful to me, even.
I doubt anyone involved was thinking of the ten commandments...they were all Jews, and had kept them all their lives.
It would be like telling you to remember to breathe...

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That's only half the statement (sentence) found in Acts 15.

Again, the Jerusalem council, and Paul himself, were all Jews, for whom keeping the commandments was second nature to them.
It wouldn't have occurred to any of them to even consider not teaching them to new converts.
The problem was not whether to teach them to worship God above all things, or not to create idols to worship, or not to take the Lord's name in vain...or any of the rest of them. Anyone would think those things were fundamental....like something you already knew before you went to pre-school. Like someone has said, something you learn from Mommy and Daddy.

The problem was whether or not grown men ought to be circumcised.
James and company decided not...don't think that because James sent along some instructions that these were replacing the ten commandments. Heaven forbid!
James would be shocked at such a notion.
Remember...faith without works is dead...and dead faith is useless. It cannot save anyone.

Angelquill said:

And once again, Acts 15 dealt with circumcision.
What grown man wants to deal with circumcision? I'm a girl, and it sounds painful to me, even.
I doubt anyone involved was thinking of the ten commandments...they were all Jews, and had kept them all their lives.
It would be like telling you to remember to breathe...

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Clue: Acts 15 is about what to do with Gentiles being accepted by God, primarily because they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit without having to keep the law and being circumcised. The council was to decide what should be done with the Gentile Christians who turn to God.

When they came to Jerusalem
Originally Posted by Angelquill

We can believe you or we can read and believe God's word.

Act 15:3
And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4
And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

(After declaring that Gentiles are being saved, certain Jewish Christians said; #1.Gentiles should be circumcised and #2, Gentiles should be commanded to keep the law.)
Act 15:6¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (There should be no question about what issues the apostles and elders put on the table)


Act 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
(Peter spoke up and said; God chose me to preach the gospel and the Gentiles believed. Angel is suggesting that being Jewish meant the law had to be included into what was preached. Angel has no shame but to contradict truth.)

Act 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

DONT BOTHER THE GENTILES WITH THE LAW AND CIRCUMCISION. JEWS HAVE THE LAW PREACHED TO THEM ON SABBATH.
THE GENTILES BELIEVERS SHOULD AVOID IDOLS, FORNICATION, SACRIFICED MEATS, AND KILLING.


SEND LETTERS TO ALL THE CHURCHES ABOUT OUR DECISION;
Act 15:23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

We hear that the law group led by Angel, who claim to be Christians, keep preaching to you that you must keep the law. We didn't send them to teach that message.

I really think you guys are reading way too much into one chapter, here.
Do you honestly think that James and the Jerusalem council would tell new Gentile converts that it was now okay for them to
1. Worship any of the old gods they had known ahead of the One True God?
2. Create idols of any of the old gods they had known and worship them?
3. Take the Name of the One True God in vain?
4. Desecrate the Sabbath day? (Remember, these men are Jews)
5. Disrespect their parents?
6. Murder?
7. Commit adultery?
8. Steal?
9. Lie?
10. Long for someone else's property?

Common sense would immediately tell us, of course, the Jerusalem council would do no such evil thing as to tell these Gentile converts that the ten commandments...the basis of our morality, no longer applied to them. Obviously, when they speak of "the law of Moses" they are speaking of Levite traditions, they are speaking of such things as Jesus pointed out, like the ritual washing of hands or of utensils, they are speaking of dietary laws...that kind of stuff. To say that they would ever indicate in any way that these new Gentile converts should not keep the ten commandments is tantamount to blasphemy.
Otherwise, we'd still have ancient gods and goddesses in our churches such as were worshiped by them before they converted. We'd have our own golden calves...as it seems some still do.
So saith Angel, the Leader of the Keepers of God's law.
(That's one heck of a promotion, after barely a month. Does a raise in pay go along with that?)

Angelquill said:

I really think you guys are reading way too much into one chapter, here.
Do you honestly think that James and the Jerusalem council would tell new Gentile converts that it was now okay for them to
1. Worship any of the old gods they had known ahead of the One True God?
2. Create idols of any of the old gods they had known and worship them?
3. Take the Name of the One True God in vain?
4. Desecrate the Sabbath day? (Remember, these men are Jews)
5. Disrespect their parents?
6. Murder?
7. Commit adultery?
8. Steal?
9. Lie?
10. Long for someone else's property?

Common sense would immediately tell us, of course, the Jerusalem council would do no such evil thing as to tell these Gentile converts that the ten commandments...the basis of our morality, no longer applied to them. Obviously, when they speak of "the law of Moses" they are speaking of Levite traditions, they are speaking of such things as Jesus pointed out, like the ritual washing of hands or of utensils, they are speaking of dietary laws...that kind of stuff. To say that they would ever indicate in any way that these new Gentile converts should not keep the ten commandments is tantamount to blasphemy.
Otherwise, we'd still have ancient gods and goddesses in our churches such as were worshiped by them before they converted. We'd have our own golden calves...as it seems some still do.
So saith Angel, the Leader of the Keepers of God's law.
(That's one heck of a promotion, after barely a month. Does a raise in pay go along with that?)

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James refutes your argument in the Council of Jersusalem in which he could have bound Christians to the 10 commandments and instead issued a proclamation that did not equate as such it backed off them and chose a few simple commandments and they did not include mention of the Sabbath whatsoever.

Just for a second, forget your thing with the Sabbath.
Do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, think for even a second that James would say it's okay for the Gentiles to continue to worship their old gods?

People tend to "equate" those ancient people to the people they know today.
They forget that their whole way of life was so different from anything we have in this world today.
Those people did not think the way we do...they didn't look at things the way we do, at all.
That's why I say, you are reading too much into a few lines of scripture.
Seriously, guys...some of you say you've been fighting this silly battle for as long as five years...you gotta be getting tired.
I suspect some of you are getting punch drunk.
And still, those that love the Lord continue to keep His commandments, and will, till the end of time.
Yet, even if all the world were to turn from following Him, I will not.

Angelquill said:

Just for a second, forget your thing with the Sabbath.
Do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, think for even a second that James would say it's okay for the Gentiles to continue to worship their old gods?

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Why would Christians want to worship any other God? Your mindset it stuck on the Old Testament still.

Angelquill said:

People tend to "equate" those ancient people to the people they know today.
They forget that their whole way of life was so different from anything we have in this world today.
Those people did not think the way we do...they didn't look at things the way we do, at all.
That's why I say, you are reading too much into a few lines of scripture.
Seriously, guys...some of you say you've been fighting this silly battle for as long as five years...you gotta be getting tired.
I suspect some of you are getting punch drunk.
And still, those that love the Lord continue to keep His commandments, and will, till the end of time.
Yet, even if all the world were to turn from following Him, I will not.

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When it comes to doing evil and sinning people haven't changed at all. The reason we (as Christians) would think differently than they do is because we have choices that they did not and they had obligations that we do not.
We have freedom in Christ that those under the Law never had it is changes us along with the Holy Spirit in us that they didn't have access to also which can equate sometimes a tremendous difference.

We can't even imagine how different their lives were.
For one thing, their lives were hard. Most of us can't even imagine life without electricity. Seriously think about what that would mean. No lights. No refrigerator. No washer and dryer. No electric stove, or heaters, or electric blankets. No television or radio. No computers, and no telephone.
Then, there was no running water. No kitchen sink. No bathtub. No toilet.
You'd have to carry every drop of water you'd use from a well maybe as much as a half mile or so from your house. Have you ever carried water? It's some heavy stuff. Try filling a ten gallon bucket with water and then carry it half a block. You'll very soon figure out that even their women were in better shape than most of our men today. They had to be.
There wouldn't be any toss it into the back seat of the car and drive it home, either. If you were lucky to own a donkey and cart, that might help, but then you'd have to take care of the donkey, which would mean more food and more water for him.
There would be no jumping into the car...or donkey cart...to run down to the store for a loaf of bread. Nope. Every morsel you put in your mouth was made at home...and most of it from stuff you grew at home. Meat was a rarity...ever try to keep meat fresh without a refrigerator? No cold drinks...no soda, either.
And that's just the tip of the ice berg.

These people had the Torah ingrained in them...they got it along with their mother's milk. For them, religion wasn't a thing they did on Saturday, or even on Sunday. Religion was a lot more than a creed. It was a way of life. They ate, slept, and breathed their faith. There wasn't anything that they did that did not involve their faith, from rising from their beds in the morning to lying down again at night. Frankly, I think we Christians could learn from them.
Anyhow, the Ten Commandments were basic to them. It's not rocket science. The idea that a convert to their faith might not need those basic laws would be like saying a child need not learn the alphabet in order to read. It would just, simply, never occur to them. It's as if I am writing a recipe for my daughter. I do not tell her to grind the flour, because in my experience, I've always bought flour in a bag already ground. I expect her to have a bag of already ground flour in the kitchen. I simply tell her to measure out how much flour the recipe calls for. I might not even tell her to use a measuring cup, because I'm going to take it for granted that she already knows how to measure flour. I just say "add two cups of flour".
In the same way, it would never occur to James to say, "keep the ten commandments". For him, this would be understood without saying. No one would ever think that anyone who wanted to be a part of their faith would even consider not keeping the ten commandments. They were as much a part of these men as their heartbeat, or their breath. Not to keep them was unthinkable.
It's like when you go to drive your car. No one has to tell you to put your key in he ignition. And hopefully no one has to tell you to adjust your mirrors and fasten your seatbelt. No one has to remind you to use your turning signals, I hope, or tell you that you must obey the traffic signs. These are all things that you learned when you learned to drive. After a lifetime of driving to work, to school, to the grocery store...and anywhere else you want to go...those simple rules become second nature. When you send your kid to driver's ed class you automatically assume that the teacher is going to teach him these simple rules. You might toss in a few rules of your own, that's your prerogative. But you are probably not going to harp on the obvious...although some might. It would be a waste of time.

Same with James.
At least, that's the way I see it.

Angelquill said:

I really think you guys are reading way too much into one chapter, here.
Do you honestly think that James and the Jerusalem council would tell new Gentile converts that it was now okay for them to
1. Worship any of the old gods they had known ahead of the One True God?
2. Create idols of any of the old gods they had known and worship them?
3. Take the Name of the One True God in vain?
4. Desecrate the Sabbath day? (Remember, these men are Jews)
5. Disrespect their parents?
6. Murder?
7. Commit adultery?
8. Steal?
9. Lie?
10. Long for someone else's property?

Common sense would immediately tell us, of course, the Jerusalem council would do no such evil thing as to tell these Gentile converts that the ten commandments...the basis of our morality, no longer applied to them. Obviously, when they speak of "the law of Moses" they are speaking of Levite traditions, they are speaking of such things as Jesus pointed out, like the ritual washing of hands or of utensils, they are speaking of dietary laws...that kind of stuff. To say that they would ever indicate in any way that these new Gentile converts should not keep the ten commandments is tantamount to blasphemy.
Otherwise, we'd still have ancient gods and goddesses in our churches such as were worshiped by them before they converted. We'd have our own golden calves...as it seems some still do.
So saith Angel, the Leader of the Keepers of God's law.
(That's one heck of a promotion, after barely a month. Does a raise in pay go along with that?)

Click to expand...

Is this how bible study works for you?
Obviously, you're not presenting what is being said by the apostles and elders in Act 15 because it contradicts what you believe.

Angelquill said:

These verses don't sound as if Jesus intended to do away with the law:
Mat_5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat_5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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You want us to see the law wont change, but you don't want us to understand that Jesus is saying that not one period or comma will change from the entire writing of the Old Testament. The fact your keyword study hides is; the law and the prophet are said to witness that there would come a time when God would NOT require the law as His standard of righteousness. Rom 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

And why is He teaching the law here?:

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Mat_7:12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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This text means....... Love your neighbor fulfills what written in the books of the law and the prophets,,,some how you're just talking about your keyword, "law".

And again here?:
Mat_23:23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightiermattersof the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

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Now you chose text of Jesus talking to Jews about the law, to make your keyword point. We all know the covenant changed after Christ's death.

This doesn't sound a whole lot as if Jesus expected the law to be done away:
Luk_16:17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

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It you ask yourself; How does the law fail? You may realize that forgiveness of sins means you cannot carry out what the law requires for sin.
If you understood that Jesus was talking about the books of the law, not just law, then you'd understand that Jesus is talking about every dot and tittle that is written in the (books of)law and prophets.

And here He explains that He has fulfilled those things that were foretold about Himself...which is quite a different thing than claiming, as some do, that He fulfilled it all, and therefore we don't need it any more.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, Thesearethe words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, andinthe prophets, andinthe psalms, concerning me.

And here we have good old Paul, everyone's favorite apostle, teaching exactly what Jesus had said:
Act_28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

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I don't see how you could miss any of this.

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all I can say is:
it's ugly to see scriptures being used for keywords rather than in context.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It looks very much here that righteousness is obedience to the law.

Angelquill said:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It looks very much here that righteousness is obedience to the law.

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Oops. You are in deep trouble if you believe this. You are 100% guilty of breaking the Law(s) of God and there is no remedy for you if you think you can be righteous through obedience to the Law(s).

It is more than a little satisfying to see that the anti-Law anti-Sabbath argument can go to the extreme of merely qouting Romans 8:3-10 and add the comment

"Oops. You are in deep trouble if you believe this."

I would love to accuse all sunday keepers of such poor logic but in fact the majority of pro-sunday scholarship rejects the argument made above about being in trouble for believing Romans 8:3-10.

in Christ,

Bob

bbbbbbb said:

Oops. You are in deep trouble if you believe this. You are 100% guilty of breaking the Law(s) of God and there is no remedy for you if you think you can be righteous through obedience to the Law(s).

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And that is where grace comes in.

Apostle Paul had the same problem.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

We know that our salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

However, the same Bible that assures us that our salvation is not of works, also warns us that "faith without works is dead."

How can this be?
Because God has, as He promised, written His law within our hearts.

Angelquill said:

And that is where grace comes in.

Apostle Paul had the same problem.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

We know that our salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

However, the same Bible that assures us that our salvation is not of works, also warns us that "faith without works is dead."

How can this be?
Because God has, as He promised, written His law within our hearts.

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Excellent reply! Thank you.

bbbbbbb said:

Excellent reply! Thank you.

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Thank you.
I appreciate your simple but direct acknowledgement more than you could imagine.