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Why I don't believe in evolution...

Job 33:6

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Be offended, I care not.

My overall point is that we have to take what the Bible says and hold it up above all things, even above what our eyes and man's logic might tell us. The Word of God is above all things.

Even our understanding of scripture is dependent upon what we see with our eyes and what we logically derive. We wouldn't even be able to read or ponder God's word if we didn't have eyeballs to see it or a logical mind to process it.

I would say quite the opposite that if we read scripture and ignore external means of corroboration of scripture, then we are in no better position than any person of any other religion that believes without any external evidence beyond their scripture.

If you have nothing in the world, or no evidence beyond scripture to back your belief, you could hypothetically believe in anything. If you were born and taught to believe Islam for example, you might believe that a prophet road a flying donkey to mecca. If you were taught Hinduism, you might believe that God's have parts of animals, such as having the head of an elephant.

Without examining creation, you have no means of grounding yourself in the plethora of false scriptures and false interpretations of even our scripture and Gods word. Nothing to corroborate.

Which is a major piece of the Christian walk. When we read scripture, we see Jesus walking to places, speaking to real people. People recorded in history. Paul traveling to real cities etc. We use evidence in the world to corroborate and to affirm the historicity and therefore truth in scripture.

So to say that we should just put scripture first and put our eyes, ears and logic second, I would say is out of order.

Because without grounded, external corroboration of information, we would be lost.
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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Even our understanding of scripture is dependent upon what we see with our eyes and what we logically derive. We wouldn't even be able to read or ponder God's word if we didn't have eyeballs to see it or a logical mind to process it.

I would say quite the opposite that if we read scripture and ignore external means of corroboration of scripture, then we are in no better position than any person of any other religion that believes without any external evidence beyond their scripture.

If you have nothing in the world, or no evidence beyond scripture to back your belief, you could hypothetically believe in anything. If you were born and taught to believe Islam for example, you might believe that a prophet road a flying donkey to mecca. If you were taught Hinduism, you might believe that God's have parts of animals, such as having the head of an elephant.

Without examining creation, you have no means of grounding yourself in the plethora of false scriptures and false interpretations of even our scripture and Gods word. Nothing to corroborate.

Which is a major piece of the Christian walk. When we read scripture, we see Jesus walking to places, speaking to real people. People recorded in history. Paul traveling to real cities etc. We use evidence in the world to corroborate and to affirm the historicity and therefore truth in scripture.

So to say that we should just put scripture first and put our eyes, ears and logic second, I would say is out of order.

Because without grounded, external corroboration of information, we would be lost.
I didn't say we should ignore everything else. I said that the Word of God is above all things. And if the Word of God were to say something that seems blatantly different from what we see with our eyes, we must defer to the Word of God.
 
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Job 33:6

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I didn't say we should ignore everything else. I said that the Word of God is above all things. And if the Word of God were to say something that seems blatantly different from what we see with our eyes, we must defer to the Word of God.

As noted above, even the word of God is subjected to our perception, use of our eyes, our logic, our biases due to cultural backgrounds and experiences etc. This is why we have things like sects. Because we enter scripture with preconceptions. And this isn't controversial, it's just what it is and anyone who studies scripture knows this.

If you find a contradiction between perception of scripture and perception of creation (which to be fair is also God's work), if you're in a bind of perception vs perception, the only thing we can do is externally corroborate.

Without external corroboration, we would have no means of discerning truth from falsehood (rightful interpretation vs wrongful interpretation) and would likely end up with a false interpretation of scripture and creation.

Else, how would you know that your perception of either scripture or creation, were true?



If scripture said that there is a cake in the oven, two parties might approach that verse in different ways. The Catholics might say "oh, it must be chocolate", while Protestants might think "no, it must be vanilla cake". Each party advances, reading scripture with a separate perception and bias and background.

So how do we solve the dilemma?

I tend to enjoy using analogies with cake.

So let's start with creation. How could we externally corroborate a scientific theory? Well, it's easy with creation because we can just study evidence. The theory of plate tectonics for example, how can we corroborate it? Well use satellites to watch continents move. Or we can observe seafloor spreading and subduction as a secondary external option. Or we could look at rocks to see where continents used to be. Or we could look at things like hotspots.

The bottom line is that with creation, we can investigate the feasibility of our perceptions from multiple angles.

So now we turn to scripture. And let's say that scripture says that there is a cake in an oven in the white house. Purely hypothetical. And let's say Protestants believe that the cake is chocolate and let's say Catholics believe that the cake is vanilla. These flavors representing different biases and interpretations of scripture, but still agreeing in some areas that the cake is real. We'll share certain ideas but there are some details that we don't agree on in scripture.

So what is the solution?

Well the solution isn't to just say, just go with what the scripture says and whatever else is out there that you might see, you can just make it a secondary concept and move on. This response doesn't work because it doesn't address the need for external corroboration. Catholics could say that the cake is chocolate and that's just what scripture says and that's that. But without external corroboration, Protestants will never accept that, and vice versa.

The only real solution is to go to the White House and to open the oven up and to pull the cake out and smell it, taste it, touch it, see it etc. Because then, no person could deny its flavor because everyone has experienced it firsthand. Now we can agree on what scripture says and we know with certainty what it meant and what flavor cake it was referring to.

So the conclusion of all of this is that external corroboration is necessary to resolve disputes between perceptions of scripture. Otherwise it falls on people's subjective biases to resolve disputes, rather than falling on God's objective indisputable creation.

We can dispute the flavor of a cake all day until we see it. And once that created cake is seen, none can dispute it. We are then truly without excuse, as Paul would say. But without seeing, we will forever be stuck in sectarian division.

---------------------------

I think it really boils down to the question of if you don't externally corroborate your perception of scripture with use of observational evidence, then how do you know that your interpretation of scripture is true, in comparison to those interpretations that do utilize external corroboration?
 
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loveofourlord

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I didn't say we should ignore everything else. I said that the Word of God is above all things. And if the Word of God were to say something that seems blatantly different from what we see with our eyes, we must defer to the Word of God.

Then you risk being wrong about the word of god. Evolution is a fact, all evidence points to that, and more then could be made up or lies. It just fits what we see. So you risk being wrong about the bible and god and how he made things, risk pushing people away from the bible and god when you use stuff that anyone with a highschool education can tell is wrong.

We know there was no global flood, we know the earth is billions of years old, we know evolution happened. This is from scientists across the world both Christians and non, if it was false it wold have been blatantly obvious by now. And yet Creationists still haven't brought anything resembling falsication of evolution.
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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Wow, I am truly at a loss. No global flood, huh?

Anyone who allows the theories of fallen men to shape the way they view God's Word, even to the point of denying God's Word altogether, is someone who needs to do some serious examining of themselves. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself made reference to Noah's day. Would we deny the words of God, when the word of atheistic scientists say otherwise? And you call yourselves Christian?

As it is written, let God be true and every man a liar.

I would sooner believe the Word of my Lord Jesus Christ, my God who is above all things, then in the existence of the sun.

None of you are ignorant - you have the scriptures and you have heard the Gospel. Far be it from me to try and create in any of you what the Holy Spirit has obviously not. So I will leave this thread. May God have mercy on your souls.
 
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loveofourlord

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Wow, I am truly at a loss. No global flood, huh?

Anyone who allows the theories of fallen men to shape the way they view God's Word, even to the point of denying God's Word altogether, is someone who needs to do some serious examining of themselves. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself made reference to Noah's day. Would we deny the words of God, when the word of atheistic scientists say otherwise? And you call yourselves Christian?

As it is written, let God be true and every man a liar.

I would sooner believe the Word of my Lord Jesus Christ, my God who is above all things, then in the existence of the sun.

None of you are ignorant - you have the scriptures and you have heard the Gospel. Far be it from me to try and create in any of you what the Holy Spirit has obviously not. So I will leave this thread. May God have mercy on your souls.

There is zero evidence for a flood and in fact counter evidence. You have limestone that takes millions of years to form which is a hard limit due to much plankton are needed, and how long they take to fall and such, you have deserts sandwiched between two marine depositions. Among thousands of other things, again it goes back to either god is a liar that makes the world appear millions of years old, or the flood is wrong. We don't even see breaks in civilizations, there are civilizations that have unbroken history during the flood. It clearly didn't happen, but you obviously only want to hold onto the bible and not truth. Well sorry but most of us care about the truth, and not what we think is the truth. I doubt gods going to reward you for deceiving people about evolution and science just because you want to believe in your misunderstanding of the bible. If your interpretation of the bible contradicts reality then it's your interpretation that is the issue.
 
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coffee4u

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Then you risk being wrong about the word of god. Evolution is a fact, all evidence points to that, and more then could be made up or lies. It just fits what we see. So you risk being wrong about the bible and god and how he made things, risk pushing people away from the bible and god when you use stuff that anyone with a highschool education can tell is wrong.

We know there was no global flood, we know the earth is billions of years old, we know evolution happened. This is from scientists across the world both Christians and non, if it was false it wold have been blatantly obvious by now. And yet Creationists still haven't brought anything resembling falsication of evolution.

What about other miracles? Do you feel the same way about them?

Lets just take one, when Jesus walked on water.

Science would say and be able to prove that walking on water is impossible. It's a fact that a person cannot walk on water. So did Jesus walk on water? How do we know that he did? If you believe that he did, you take it on faith from scripture, do you not?

Science is mans collection of facts about how the world reacts now. The same way it concludes that a man cannot ever walk on water.
But science doesn't have the world as it was at creation nor was anybody there to see it. Science doesn't include the supernatural. The supernatural defies science, it defies logic, it defies what your senses might tell you.

When Peter joined Jesus out on the water his senses quickly told him that what he was attempting was impossible, it was at this point he began to sink beneath the waves. He allowed his senses and human logic to take over his faith. He knew a man could not walk on water, it didn't fit with what he knew to be a fact. The point is Jesus did. Regardless of facts, he walked on water and so could Peter.

Scripture should come first. It should be believed on faith above any fact that man can come up with, above any evidence to the contrary, above your senses and above your logic. This is what faith is.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Faith is not believing because our senses and logic agrees, it is believing in spite of them, against them.


Do we risk being wrong? Everyone risks being wrong and will be wrong over something.

But nothing is more important than believing in what God says by faith.

God says he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
so I believe that by faith.


God says he sent a global flood
Genesis 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
So I believe that by faith.


Do we believe that God came to earth as a man, born of a virgin, died to take our sins and rose again because of logic, facts and evidence or by faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
 
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loveofourlord

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What about other miracles? Do you feel the same way about them?

Lets just take one, when Jesus walked on water.

Science would say and be able to prove that walking on water is impossible. It's a fact that a person cannot walk on water. So did Jesus walk on water? How do we know that he did? If you believe that he did, you take it on faith from scripture, do you not?

Science is mans collection of facts about how the world reacts now. The same way it concludes that a man cannot ever walk on water.
But science doesn't have the world as it was at creation nor was anybody there to see it. Science doesn't include the supernatural. The supernatural defies science, it defies logic, it defies what your senses might tell you.

When Peter joined Jesus out on the water his senses quickly told him that what he was attempting was impossible, it was at this point he began to sink beneath the waves. He allowed his senses and human logic to take over his faith. He knew a man could not walk on water, it didn't fit with what he knew to be a fact. The point is Jesus did. Regardless of facts, he walked on water and so could Peter.

Scripture should come first. It should be believed on faith above any fact that man can come up with, above any evidence to the contrary, above your senses and above your logic. This is what faith is.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Faith is not believing because our senses and logic agrees, it is believing in spite of them, against them.


Do we risk being wrong? Everyone risks being wrong and will be wrong over something.

But nothing is more important than believing in what God says by faith.

God says he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
so I believe that by faith.


God says he sent a global flood
Genesis 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
So I believe that by faith.


Do we believe that God came to earth as a man, born of a virgin, died to take our sins and rose again because of logic, facts and evidence or by faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

What miracle of the flood? There is no evidence it ever happened, again there is evidence AGAINST it, so either god put the evidence disproving the flood there to deceive, or your wrong. the problem is outside of the bible there is no evidence such a event even happened and tons showing it couldn't have happened.
 
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Job 33:6

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What about other miracles? Do you feel the same way about them?

Lets just take one, when Jesus walked on water.

Science would say and be able to prove that walking on water is impossible. It's a fact that a person cannot walk on water. So did Jesus walk on water? How do we know that he did? If you believe that he did, you take it on faith from scripture, do you not?

Science is mans collection of facts about how the world reacts now. The same way it concludes that a man cannot ever walk on water.
But science doesn't have the world as it was at creation nor was anybody there to see it. Science doesn't include the supernatural. The supernatural defies science, it defies logic, it defies what your senses might tell you.

When Peter joined Jesus out on the water his senses quickly told him that what he was attempting was impossible, it was at this point he began to sink beneath the waves. He allowed his senses and human logic to take over his faith. He knew a man could not walk on water, it didn't fit with what he knew to be a fact. The point is Jesus did. Regardless of facts, he walked on water and so could Peter.

Scripture should come first. It should be believed on faith above any fact that man can come up with, above any evidence to the contrary, above your senses and above your logic. This is what faith is.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Faith is not believing because our senses and logic agrees, it is believing in spite of them, against them.


Do we risk being wrong? Everyone risks being wrong and will be wrong over something.

But nothing is more important than believing in what God says by faith.

God says he created in 6 days.
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
so I believe that by faith.


God says he sent a global flood
Genesis 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
So I believe that by faith.


Do we believe that God came to earth as a man, born of a virgin, died to take our sins and rose again because of logic, facts and evidence or by faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

I'm sure you've heard this all before a million times, but it's more than merely an absence of evidence for a global flood, it's evidence to the contrary.

Someone mentioned, possibly in this very same topic, that perhaps the world was created in 6 days with an apparent age. Like Adam, created fully grown or filly matured.

And someone might say, "well, it was a miracle and we weren't there to see it so it's possible".

But really when we get down to it, it's just not so simple.

Screenshot_20210614-095732.png

Fossil Grove - Wikipedia

I had spoken with an individual about petrified forests a few months back, with relation to a global flood.

He had proposed an idea that a flood picked up these trees and dropped them off as waters recessed.

But who are we really kidding here? Upon closer examination we have O, A, and B horizons in paleosols (prehistoric soils that are now stone), termite burrows in the petrified bark, and reptile fossil trackways along the layers around bases of trunks.

Upon close examination, these evidences for a global flood disappear, and the story transforms into something much different. A natural habitat, a forest with termites and reptiles, hundreds of millions of years old.

The individual then suggested that perhaps the forest was of the original pre-flood earth. But of course, this too fell apart when we observed the layers being midway up (vertically) through the very geologic succession allegedly instantaneously deposited by the hypothetical flood.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing, but those who who do see, and then go further to deny God's creation ought to reconsider. And photographs such as those above and below in my post are not merely "knowledge of man", rather they're acknowledgement of what God has created. Knowing that the sun is hot is not merely "knowledge of man" rather it's acknowledgement of what God has created. And those who deny that the sun is hot on the basis that it is "man's word" ought to reconsider.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10420949509380119 - termites

(PDF) DEGRADED WOOD IN THE UPPER TRIASSIC PETRIFIED FOREST FORMATION (CHINLE GROUP), NORTHERN ARIZONA: DIFFERENTIATING FUNGAL ROT FROM ARTHROPOD BORING - burrows in petrified forests with images.

LATE TRIASSIC TANYSTROPHEIDS (REPTILIA, ARCHOSAUROMORPHA) FROM NORTHERN NEW MEXICO (PETRIFIED FOREST MEMBER, CHINLE FORMATION) AND THE BIOGEOGRAPHY, FUNCTIONAL MORPHOLOGY, AND EVOLUTION OF TANYSTROPHEIDAE on JSTOR - trackways

(PDF) Vertebrate tracks and their significance in the Chinle Formation (Late Triassic), Petrified Forest National Park Arizona - more trackways

VERTEBRATE FOSSIL PRESERVATION IN BLUE PALEOSOLS FROM THE PETRIFIED FOREST NATIONAL PARK, ARIZONA, WITH IMPLICATIONS FOR VERTEBRATE BIOSTRATIGRAPHY IN THE CHINLE FORMATION on JSTOR - trackways and discussion on paleosols

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=9998&context=etd&ved=2ahUKEwi_sZSt-bvyAhUTUzUKHc8mCOoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0mq6zvg7x-L4yKEWpceday -petrified forests rooted in paleosols (pages 79-100 for images and diagrams).

http://earthwise.bgs.ac.uk/index.ph...anquhar_and_Thornhill#/media/File:P912357.jpg -clackmannan group resting atop Ordovician strata part way up the geologic succession.
 
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coffee4u

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What miracle of the flood? There is no evidence it ever happened, again there is evidence AGAINST it, so either god put the evidence disproving the flood there to deceive, or your wrong. the problem is outside of the bible there is no evidence such a event even happened and tons showing it couldn't have happened.

Come now, I asked you a few questions, you need to answer mine first. Do that and I will answer yours.

You are putting a lot of faith in the knowledge of men. They weren't there, they only have evidence in the present. If you look closer you will see what they have has numerous holes. People overlook the holes due to 'overwhelming proof' But like I said, we can say there is overwhelming proof against a man walking on water.

I am simply trying to make you think about the inconsistencies of believing in one set of miracles but not in another set due to the knowledge of man. If you read scripture with a pure mind, without taking in "facts discovered by man" These events were meant to be read and believed as literal miraculous events.
I will add even if God didn't do things exactly the way it's laid out because he is outside of time and the earth may have also been created outside of time that trying to date things may be complete foolishness. The point still remains that God told us it took 6 days from our perspective.

Why read Jesus as raising from the dead as an accepted event but not the others? Because science hasn't yet to disproved it? What will you do if and when they do disprove it? We need to have faith in the resurrection of Christ and everything else God tells us to be truth regardless of what science or mankind may say against it.
There is going to be great deception with signs and wonders to fool even the elect. A great deception could only be convincing if it is based upon what mankind holds dear; evidence, logic, facts- science. We are not uneducated people who believe a fire destroyed our crops because the spirits were angry. Modern man will not be swayed by some magic tricks. It will be serious deception.

As to God never sending a delusion:
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
Why? It's a test. Do you believe what God has plainly said or in what your eyes see?
How do you think Satan convinced Eve to not listen to what God has plainly said? He appealed to her eyes and her logic.
 
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coffee4u

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I'm sure you've heard this all before a million times, but it's more than merely an absence of evidence for a global flood, it's evidence to the contrary.

It doesn't matter what 'facts' you show. My faith is not based upon what I see, upon evidence; but on what God tells us.
If you wish to follow the evidence of man that is up to you. I will hold fast to what God tells me.

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
 
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Job 33:6

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I'm sure you've heard this all before a million times, but it's more than merely an absence of evidence for a global flood, it's evidence to the contrary.

Someone mentioned, possibly in this very same topic, that perhaps the world was created in 6 days with an apparent age. Like Adam, created fully grown or filly matured.

And someone might say, "well, it was a miracle and we weren't there to see it so it's possible".

But really when we get down to it, it's just not so simple.

View attachment 304584
Fossil Grove - Wikipedia

I had spoken with an individual about petrified forests a few months back, with relation to a global flood.

He had proposed an idea that a flood picked up these trees and dropped them off as waters recessed.

But who are we really kidding here? Upon closer examination we have O, A, and B horizons in paleosols (prehistoric soils that are now stone), termite burrows in the petrified bark, and reptile fossil trackways along the layers around bases of trunks.

Upon close examination, these evidences for a global flood disappear, and the story transforms into something much different. A natural habitat, a forest with termites and reptiles, hundreds of millions of years old.

The individual then suggested that perhaps the forest was of the original pre-flood earth. But of course, this too fell apart when we observed the layers being midway up (vertically) through the very geologic succession allegedly instantaneously deposited by the hypothetical flood.

Blessed are those who believe without seeing, but those who who do see, and then go further to deny God's creation ought to reconsider. And photographs such as those above and below in my post are not merely "knowledge of man", rather they're acknowledgement of what God has created. Knowing that the sun is hot is not merely "knowledge of man" rather it's acknowledgement of what God has created. And those who deny that the sun is hot on the basis that it is "man's word" ought to reconsider.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10420949509380119 - termites

(PDF) DEGRADED WOOD IN THE UPPER TRIASSIC PETRIFIED FOREST FORMATION (CHINLE GROUP), NORTHERN ARIZONA: DIFFERENTIATING FUNGAL ROT FROM ARTHROPOD BORING - burrows in petrified forests with images.

LATE TRIASSIC TANYSTROPHEIDS (REPTILIA, ARCHOSAUROMORPHA) FROM NORTHERN NEW MEXICO (PETRIFIED FOREST MEMBER, CHINLE FORMATION) AND THE BIOGEOGRAPHY, FUNCTIONAL MORPHOLOGY, AND EVOLUTION OF TANYSTROPHEIDAE on JSTOR - trackways

(PDF) Vertebrate tracks and their significance in the Chinle Formation (Late Triassic), Petrified Forest National Park Arizona - more trackways

VERTEBRATE FOSSIL PRESERVATION IN BLUE PALEOSOLS FROM THE PETRIFIED FOREST NATIONAL PARK, ARIZONA, WITH IMPLICATIONS FOR VERTEBRATE BIOSTRATIGRAPHY IN THE CHINLE FORMATION on JSTOR - trackways and discussion on paleosols

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=9998&context=etd&ved=2ahUKEwi_sZSt-bvyAhUTUzUKHc8mCOoQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0mq6zvg7x-L4yKEWpceday -petrified forests rooted in paleosols (pages 79-100 for images and diagrams).

http://earthwise.bgs.ac.uk/index.ph...anquhar_and_Thornhill#/media/File:P912357.jpg -clackmannan group resting atop Ordovician strata part way up the geologic succession.

With the above said, is it really "evidence of man"? Or is it simply acknowledgement of what God has made?

Someone could say that the sun is hot, and that this is a scientific observation and is derived from "evidence of man". But in actuality it is just observation and acknowledgement of what God made.

I tend to prefer the simple line:
it isn't scientists vs YECs, but rather it is God vs YECs and scientists are just passive observers. And my bets are all on King Jesus.
 
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The Barbarian

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ou are putting a lot of faith in the knowledge of men.

You're putting a lot of faith in your personal interpretation of scripture. If scripture seems to conflict with reality, you've misunderstood one or both of them. And being a fallible human, both mistakes are equally likely.

"Please don't idolize your own ability to reason."
YE creationist Dr. Todd Wood.
 
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The Barbarian

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it isn't scientists vs YECs, but rather it is God vs YECs and scientists are just passive observers. And my bets are all on King Jesus.

And we have today's winner.
 
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loveofourlord

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Come now, I asked you a few questions, you need to answer mine first. Do that and I will answer yours.

You are putting a lot of faith in the knowledge of men. They weren't there, they only have evidence in the present. If you look closer you will see what they have has numerous holes. People overlook the holes due to 'overwhelming proof' But like I said, we can say there is overwhelming proof against a man walking on water.

I am simply trying to make you think about the inconsistencies of believing in one set of miracles but not in another set due to the knowledge of man. If you read scripture with a pure mind, without taking in "facts discovered by man" These events were meant to be read and believed as literal miraculous events.
I will add even if God didn't do things exactly the way it's laid out because he is outside of time and the earth may have also been created outside of time that trying to date things may be complete foolishness. The point still remains that God told us it took 6 days from our perspective.

Why read Jesus as raising from the dead as an accepted event but not the others? Because science hasn't yet to disproved it? What will you do if and when they do disprove it? We need to have faith in the resurrection of Christ and everything else God tells us to be truth regardless of what science or mankind may say against it.
There is going to be great deception with signs and wonders to fool even the elect. A great deception could only be convincing if it is based upon what mankind holds dear; evidence, logic, facts- science. We are not uneducated people who believe a fire destroyed our crops because the spirits were angry. Modern man will not be swayed by some magic tricks. It will be serious deception.

As to God never sending a delusion:
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
Why? It's a test. Do you believe what God has plainly said or in what your eyes see?

How do you think Satan convinced Eve to not listen to what God has plainly said? He appealed to her eyes and her logic.

Miracles in another context don't make the flood stop being a myth, as it's not just miracles but god being deceitful, purposely hiding the evidence and putting in fake evidence there was no flood. That be like Jesus raising from the dead, but leaving a body there to make it look like he was still dead, and then only the apostles could see him among other things. You can't ignore the contrary evidence, the miracle here requires god faking or hiding the flood, is that the kind of god you think exists?

Explain why there is evidence against the flood. The creationists flood myth requires more miracles and nonsense then what is in the bible to explain species, and why the flood doesn't have evidence for it and so on.
 
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coffee4u

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Miracles in another context don't make the flood stop being a myth, as it's not just miracles but god being deceitful, purposely hiding the evidence and putting in fake evidence there was no flood. That be like Jesus raising from the dead, but leaving a body there to make it look like he was still dead, and then only the apostles could see him among other things. You can't ignore the contrary evidence, the miracle here requires god faking or hiding the flood, is that the kind of god you think exists?

Explain why there is evidence against the flood. The creationists flood myth requires more miracles and nonsense then what is in the bible to explain species, and why the flood doesn't have evidence for it and so on.

There is plenty of evidence for a global flood if you care to look.
But evidence one way or another isn't the point. Evidence is interesting but it's still just men's opinions about how the evidence came to be, no matter if those men are on the side on no global flood or for global flood. They are still just men. faith cannot be built upon the opinions of men. That is building your house upon the sand.

I don't care about the evidence because my faith isn't based upon evidence or lack of it, it's based upon what God says.
As to what you think is evidence, no one here saw what happened. What we see is after the fact and is mankind's explanation for it. Perhaps if we had a time machine and could observe it all we would have a clear understanding of why things look the way they do and realize it all make perfect sense but in a new way that we could not have even imagined. Just because something looks one way does not make the obvious answer the correct answer. There may be other unknowns factors and this holds true for just about anything.
Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.

God says a flood covered the world, that all life was extinguished, and that he would never send such a flood again. This doesn't come out of a child's story book but from scripture that we are told is all God breathed.
2 Timothy 3:16

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

As such all scripture needs to be treated seriously. Hand waving it away as myth shows disrespect to both the author and to God.
If you say the flood was local, and we know there have been many local floods, how does that fit in with Gods promise to never send that kind of flood again? He wouldn't say it if it didn't happen. It's right there in the scriptures, the same scriptures we read regarding Christ's birth, death and resurrection.
If all it takes to sway your faith is evidence what will you do when evidence is presented against other tenets of your faith?
 
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coffee4u

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With the above said, is it really "evidence of man"? Or is it simply acknowledgement of what God has made?

Someone could say that the sun is hot, and that this is a scientific observation and is derived from "evidence of man". But in actuality it is just observation and acknowledgement of what God made.

I tend to prefer the simple line:
it isn't scientists vs YECs, but rather it is God vs YECs and scientists are just passive observers. And my bets are all on King Jesus.

Yes the sun is hot and yes men made an observation about it and yes that appears to be correct. This doesn't mean men are going to be correct about every observation.

The world at creation was different from the world after the fall and different again after the flood. The Bible gives us clues about that but does not tell us everything.

Both creation and the global flood were miraculous events not natural ones.

Anyone who was there to witness any of it is long gone so there are no eye witnesses.

Any evidence left behind is interpreted by men who again weren't there, who don't know everything.

There could be other explanations for things that we as mere humans can't even begin to understand. Job claimed to know things and what was God reply to him? Verse after verse of God putting him in his place, reminding him that he knew nothing.

Job 38
Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?


8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?


12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.


16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.


19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!


22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?


31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Beard with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?


34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom
or gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?


39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
 
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The Barbarian

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But evidence one way or another isn't the point. Evidence is interesting but it's still just men's opinions about how the evidence came to be, no matter if those men are on the side on no global flood or for global flood. They are still just men. faith cannot be built upon the opinions of men. That is building your house upon the sand.

And yet YE creationists are building their faith upon the opinions of men who take an unusual interpretation of the Bible.
 
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coffee4u

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And yet YE creationists are building their faith upon the opinions of men who take an unusual interpretation of the Bible.

Mr Barbarian
You are on ignore, as I have told you before. I am not going to regularly click on 'show ignored content'.
As I told you last time, men have nothing to do with it. I believe solely based on what scripture says.
 
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The Barbarian

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You are on ignore, as I have told you before. I am not going to regularly click on 'show ignored content'.

No problem. I didn't expect a response. Just commenting on what's being put up here.

As I told you last time, men have nothing to do with it. I believe solely based on what scripture says.

And yet you believe what some men have interpreted the Bible to be. So long as you depend on man's interpretation, that's how it is.
 
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