Why I don't believe in evolution...

[Sam Saved by Grace]

I have considered these matters, many times. And the only way that I can possibly reconcile evolutionary science with the Bible in a way that doesn't completely undermine the Christian faith, is in the following scenario:

The Earth brought forth life (evolution), as seen in the creation account. Adam and Eve, however, are set apart from the rest of the created order in that the Earth did not bring them forth - they were a supernatural creation of God.

There were other humans on the Earth at the time of Adam and Eve (perhaps this can be seen by Cain finding a wife after his banishment).

All humans, except Noah and his progeny, were wiped out in the global flood, making every human alive at the time of Christ, as well as today, a descendent of Adam.

This also seems to harmonize in the sense that Adam stood apart from his peers (the other humans) in the fact that God intervened in the natural order of things in bringing him about, the same way that Christ, the second Adam, stood apart from His peers in that God intervened in the natural order of things in bringing Him about (the virgin birth).

That said, I do not believe it because the Bible doesn't teach it, though I am sure it won't stop at least one person from trying to poke holes in it. My greater point is there are ways of thinking outside the box rather than in automatically dismissing a literal account of a real Adam and Eve. But in truth, I don't trouble myself with these things, anymore. I have no confidence in fallen mankind or his wisdom. I don't trust the dating system, I don't see anything in the fossil record to indicate human evolution, and I stand firm on the Word of God regardless. So I just focus on the things of God.

 

[The Barbarian]

I have considered these matters, many times. And the only way that I can possibly reconcile evolutionary science with the Bible in a way that doesn't completely undermine the Christian faith, is in the following scenario:

The Earth brought forth life (evolution), as seen in the creation account. Adam and Eve, however, are set apart from the rest of the created order in that the Earth did not bring them forth - they were a supernatural creation of God.

In the sense that matters, they are. So are you. Like Adam and Eve, your body was created by natural means. But your soul was given directly by God.

There were other humans on the Earth at the time of Adam and Eve (perhaps this can be seen by Cain finding a wife after his banishment).

All humans, except Noah and his progeny, were wiped out in the global flood, making every human alive at the time of Christ, as well as today, a descendent of Adam.

Of course, the Bible doesn't say it's global. It uses the word "erets" (land) to describe what was covered. Erets means some particular land, for example "erets Israel" (the land of Israel). If God flooded the whole globe, He would have used "tevel" (world).

This also seems to harmonize in the sense that Adam stood apart from his peers (the other humans) in the fact that God intervened in the natural order of things in bringing him about

If we can believe God, Adam and Ever were the first humans to receive a living soul.

I don't trouble myself with these things, anymore.

Wise choice. It doesn't matter at all to your salvation. That will depend on other things as God makes clear.

I don't trust the dating system, I don't see anything in the fossil record to indicate human evolution

Even knowledgeable YE creationists admit that there is much evidence for human evolution, even as they prefer their particular interpretation of the Bible. Would you like me to show you?

 

[Job 33:6]

No, I don't. But even if it was, it would be perfectly true as a parable. I have no doubt that the Hebrews realized this, given that they were familiar with the Sumerian stories.



No, that wrong. You're saying that Jesus was deceptive by using parables? Seriously?



No, I know of no case where it's presented as a literal history. If you're claiming that mentioning a figurative account converts it to a literal history, I'd like to see the evidence for that.



So the confusion is, you assumed there couldn't be an allegory about real people and real events? There can be, so that's not an issue, either. I happen to believe that Adam and Eve were real people and that there was a real fall, in which they disobeyed God. And there's nothing in biology or any other science that rules it out.



You're upset because I don't accept your new interpretation of the creation story. But you should be a little more careful about tossing off false accusations. I won't report you, but others might.



In fact, St. Augustine over a millennium ago, recognized that the creation story in Genesis was not a literal one. On the other hand, YE creationism was invented in the early 20th century. Before the Seventh-Day Adventists invented it, most creationists were old Earth creationists.



Possibly so.



Why is it always about race for you guys? I didn't say anything about race.



Maybe so. I hope you can find your way to deal with these things and find some peace about them.

I suppose it is true that Jesus could speak of Adam and Eve as real people, but maybe in truth they weren't made from dust within 6 days but rather this were some kind of allegory.

Why would Jesus do this though, rather than simply telling people that the world is millions of billions of years old? Did the Jews and gentiles not have numbers so large? What would the reason be for God to limit clarity on the details?

 

[The Barbarian]

I suppose it is true that Jesus could speak of Adam and Eve as real people, but maybe in truth they weren't made from dust within 6 days but rather this were some kind of allegory.

Yes.

Why would Jesus do this though, rather than simply telling people that the world is millions of billions of years old? Did the Jews and gentiles not have numbers so large? What would the reason be for God to limit clarity on the details?

Probably because it wasn't something that mattered to the purpose of scripture.

 

[Job 33:6]

Probably because it wasn't something that mattered to the purpose of scripture.

I think it makes sense that maybe Jesus wouldnt clarify because Jesus Himself held back information so that we could understand what was most important.

If Jesus began breaking out calculus based physics and general relativity to describe supernovas and the gravitation coalescence of earth, people wouldnt have even been able to comprehend it.

In which case, as you said, Jesus came to save, not necessarily to teach mankind all the fine details of creation which might have taken hundreds or thousands of years more.

But still, even without necessarily teaching people advanced physics, couldn't Jesus have simply said one sentence, just one, saying exactly how many years old earth is? Which is an interesting question because Jesus never even said that the earth was 6,000 years old either. We just guess based on genealogies.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

As Christians, the Word of God is above all things. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but the Words of God will by no means pass away. Stand firm on the Rock. There is no authority outside of scripture. If you remove yourself from that foundation and deny the inerrancy of God's Word, you are susceptible to be blown about. When you start denying the existence of people in the Bible, you are treading on dangerous ground. Some of you are treading on very dangerous ground. Beware.

 

[The Barbarian]

As Christians, the Word of God is above all things.

And the word of someone who is interpreting the Word of God is just that of a fallible human.

If you remove yourself from that foundation and deny the inerrancy of God's Word

So you're saying that a mustard seed is the smallest seed there is? Demonstrably wrong. That's what's wrong with "inerrancy." The Bible is about God and man and our relationship. Don't try to change it into something else.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

That was a parable. You are the one trying to change God's Word into what you want it to be. It is common for your ilk to diminish God's Word, and for centuries upon centuries, even forbade the reading of it, while teaching apostolic succession, a lie from the very pit of hell.

Know that when you respond, I consider the very source.

 

[The Barbarian]

That was a parable.

So it turns out you think the Bible is inerrant, except where it isn't.

Got it. But you decided to call that a parable, using your own judgement, not God's.

Know that when you respond, I consider the very source.

That was from the Bible.

 

[Shadowkat]

If I may, all of the histories of mankind denies evolution because we haven’t seemed to have changed one bit from the events east of Eden until today. The argument really isn’t about evolution anyway; it’s about God’s role in our genesis, isn’t it? Any such question presupposes God’s existence. I know He’s really real because I have heard Him speak into my spirit and have felt His presence. I have seen His work in my life. I think that if you look for Him you’ll see Him in the rocks of the land and the wonders of the sky and if you don’t want to see Him you’ll see nothing in any of it but chance and the mean progression of spinning rocks, the rise and fall of a sullen sun. Sorry, I wax philosophical.

 

[Job 33:6]

If I may, all of the histories of mankind denies evolution because we haven’t seemed to have changed one bit from the events east of Eden until today. The argument really isn’t about evolution anyway; it’s about God’s role in our genesis, isn’t it? Any such question presupposes God’s existence. I know He’s really real because I have heard Him speak into my spirit and have felt His presence. I have seen His work in my life. I think that if you look for Him you’ll see Him in the rocks of the land and the wonders of the sky and if you don’t want to see Him you’ll see nothing in any of it but chance and the mean progression of spinning rocks, the rise and fall of a sullen sun. Sorry, I wax philosophical.

Estimates for the timing of speciation ranges up to some 200,000+ years in nature. If Adam and Eve only lived, hypothetically, 6,000 years ago, we wouldn't really expect them to appear much different than today's people, if evolution were true.

But otherwise I would agree that it's really a discussion over God's involvement and plan in creating us.

 

[The Barbarian]

If I may, all of the histories of mankind denies evolution because we haven’t seemed to have changed one bit from the events east of Eden until today.

Well, that's a testable assumption.

Humans are diploid organisms. They have two copies of DNA, one from their mother and one from their father. So Adam and Eve together could have, at most, four alleles for each gene locus. Yet most human genes have over a hundred different alleles. All the rest evolved since Adam and Eve.

But even then, we see numerous examples of more recent evolution. The EPAS1 allele in Tibetans, permitting survival at high altitudes, is only a few thousand years old. The Milano mutation, which provides very good resistance to hardening of the arteries, is a few hundred years old.

Lots more of those. Would you like to see more?

Evolution is just God's way of producing new and more fit organisms.

 

[loveofourlord]

@ Mods

Is there a protestants only forum? A Word of God believers forum? I don't mean to go off subject, but limiting a forum to "Christians only" and then allowing those who promote evolution and deny the inerrancy of scripture would be like limiting a forum to Jews only and then allowing Nazis.

What you are seeing ^ is the fruit of centuries of teaching apostolic succession, by which infallibility is inevitably ascribed to apostates; we see the fruit of centuries of undermining God's Word; we see the fruit of hundreds of years of rank idolatry and veneration of mere creatures. And we are asked to fellowship with the spiritual progeny of those who became drunk with the blood of protestants!

Those who do not hold to the five points of the reformation are not Christian and are still in their sins! I am not saying that there are no saved Catholics - there are! But those who consciously reject Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone are going to split hell wide open! And I humbly request a forum limited to actual Christians. That is all.

Careful you might get a warning for calling us not Christians which is against the rules.

Being offensive doesn't make us any more wrong about evolution, all the facts point to it. I accept evolution because I get the science and understand it. Your welcome to go elsewhere, the is even a section on this Christian only science area if you want to go there. Were just accepting what reality shows us. Evolution is too obvious, that trying to force creationism will just push people away from Chrsitianity because it's incompatible with what we can see in reality.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Careful you might get a warning for calling us not Christians which is against the rules.

Being offensive doesn't make us any more wrong about evolution, all the facts point to it. I accept evolution because I get the science and understand it. Your welcome to go elsewhere, the is even a section on this Christian only science area if you want to go there. Were just accepting what reality shows us. Evolution is too obvious, that trying to force creationism will just push people away from Chrsitianity because it's incompatible with what we can see in reality.

There is no evidence for macro-evolution. There is for micro-evolution. Big difference between the two.

There should be an abundance of evidence throughout the fossil record, but there is none. I see no evidence. And the Bible is not compatible with evolution, period.

 

[loveofourlord]

There is no evidence for macro-evolution. There is for micro-evolution. Big difference between the two.

There should be an abundance of evidence throughout the fossil record, but there is none. I see no evidence. And the Bible is not compatible with evolution, period.

Macro evolution is no different then micro except for scale, and there is tons. Feathered dinosaurs, whale evolution, fish evolution, you name it. All creationists have is made up stuff or stuff that is out of date by decades. If you want to be taken seriously you need to provide some evidence against evolution that hasn't been debunked millions of times.

Then the bible is wrong is what your saying. I chose to accept reality and the bible, you can choose your own way but that won't win converts, or stop pushing people away from the bible. Because your way is incompatible with what we see in reality full stop. Unless you want to claim god lies and is deceitful for the way that he created reality to reflect evolution.

 

[The Barbarian]

Is there a protestants only forum?

Wouldn't do any good for you. Most of the world's Protestants belong to denominations that accept that evolution is consistent with Christian belief.

A Word of God believers forum?

That would be even worse for you. I think a YE creationist only forum is what you want.

I don't mean to go off subject, but limiting a forum to "Christians only" and then allowing those who promote evolution and deny the inerrancy of scripture would be like limiting a forum to Jews only and then allowing Nazis.

If you think so, you have a very inaccurate idea of who Christians are, and what we believe.

 

[The Barbarian]

There is no evidence for macro-evolution. There is for micro-evolution. Big difference between the two.

Sorry, that's wrong, too. Even organizations like Answers in Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research now admit that new species, genera,and even families of animals evolve from others.
mac·ro·evo·lu·tion | \ ˈma-krō-ˌe-və-ˈlü-shən
also -ˌē-və- \

Definition of macroevolution

: evolution that results in relatively large and complex changes (as in species formation)

Would you like me to show you?

 

[Job 33:6]

There is no evidence for macro-evolution. There is for micro-evolution. Big difference between the two.

There should be an abundance of evidence throughout the fossil record, but there is none. I see no evidence. And the Bible is not compatible with evolution, period.

As a Christian scientist, I find this offensive.

Paul didn't go around telling the gentiles to judge the Jews. It seems like you're taking an aggressive approach here.

God made Christians in many fashions from many backgrounds of different cultures, experiences, races etc. We should be spurring growth, not tearing eachother down.

And I understand that it's a contentious topic, but we can't forgo the gospel any time we disagree with another Christian.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Be offended, I care not.

Granted, it is not my focus to disprove evolution. I don't concern myself with it. I just preach Christ and Him crucified. My overall point is that we have to take what the Bible says and hold it up above all things, even above what our eyes and man's logic might tell us. The Word of God is above all things.

The Bible warned us that a time of great delusion is coming. The Bible says that it is God Himself that will send this delusion. Why would God want to deceive? Because it is a judgment upon those who do not love the Truth.

Take the book "The God Delusion". That is a perfectly named book. Because that is literally what it is. That belief, that mindset, the exaltation of the natural and the denial of the spiritual, is the great delusion of our time. And it will only get worse. It will only become more and more convincing

Whether evolution is a part of that or not, it is not my concern. The issue is that when you begin to concede ground, and allow external things to effect how you interpret scripture, you are treading on dangerous ground. A belief in evolution is not required for Eternal Life. But a belief in the Word of God is, in fact, required for Eternal Life. We can't worry that a strictly biblical approach might push some away, because those who are appointed unto Eternal Life from before the world began will believe - it is God who draws His people, not us. But we still have a responsibility. As Christians, we have to stay grounded in God's Word, and have a conviction that the Word of God is always true no matter what anything else might seem to suggest. Remember, the antichrist will deceive the whole world by many signs and lying wonders.

 

[The Barbarian]

Be offended, I care not.

God does. And that should matter to anyone who cares about Him.

we can't forgo the gospel any time we disagree with another Christian.

Exactly right.