Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

[Albion]

In my calculations to pre-determine people’s choices is to determine pre-existence of the person. There is no scripture that establishes that....

...which is to establish conditions that scripture similarly is without.

 

[Albion]

So, yes, even with grace our comprehension of God is only partial in this life, and our wills are not overwhelmed by it as if we're merely passive players. Man's choice comes into play when he's made aware of the options, when God draws man to Himself.

...which is what predestination does. If it were free will instead, being made aware of some options would mean little if the person were still unable to understand what is involved with choosing one or the other.

 

[Barney2.0]

The concept of having no free will and the doctrine of total depravity really turn me off when it comes to Calvinism specifically, although I have doctrinal issues with Protestantism as a whole.

 

[Albion]

There are all sorts of things that are part of life, nature, and our religion that turn me off, but if in God's wisdom X or Y are nevertheless what he has ordered...

...then it is so.

That's the case even if I would have done things differently if I were God rather than Him.

 

[~Zao~]

...which is to establish conditions that scripture similarly is without.

Like the conditions of Jesus giving Judas the moneybags? Scripture doesn’t establish the reasoning behind that either. One answer that Christians still ponder. But that is a sign of the times isn’t it .... the unseen week of the church hidden in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

...which is what predestination does. If it were free will instead, being made aware of some options would mean little if the person were still unable to understand what is involved with choosing one or the other.

We understand enough to know that something good, something better than what the world offers-has been shown. And it's from that position that our justification is either effected, or not, based on whether we allow the light we've seen to penetrate and overcome the darkness, to overcome the pride and covetousness that mark this world and ourselves, or not. We're drawn to what appeals to and pulls us the hardest and in that moment we make our decision, and are expected to continue to make it throughout our lives, making increasingly more just or right decisions as we follow Christ and align our wills with His, growing in the virtue of love most of all as we persevere.

From our perspective, the perspective within which all this is worked out, our final destinies are not known with 100% certainty. Without God calling, without God revealing and stirring and awakening, we cannot be saved. But we can still reject what we've been shown. We can remain in hiding from God, a hiding that Adam initiated. We can fall back to sleep. We can reject the heavenly gift that we've tasted. Human history with God's plan of salvation makes little sense without the will of man involved from the beginning. Because that history is what helps show us, by contrast, the difference between a world without God for all practical purposes, and a world with Him once He's been revealed. So, having known or tasted of evil also we may choose between the two and hopefully run like prodigals back to the Father who's always been there, patiently waiting our return, even if behind the scenes He's been helping us to make the right choice.

 

[Albion]

We understand enough to know that something good, something better than what the world offers-has been shown. And it's from that position that our justification is either effected, or not, based on whether we allow the light we've seen to penetrate and overcome the darkness, to overcome the pride and covetousness that mark this world and ourselves, or not.

You know, that sounds great. Sounds.

However, it doesn't to anything to resolve the predestination vs Freewill controversy.

 

[fhansen]

You know, that sounds great. Sounds.

However, it doesn't to anything to resolve the predestination vs Freewill controversy.

It just means that God uses our choices as part of the "equation" in determining our destinies, with us expected to do the best we can with whatever we've been given in terms of grace, revelation/knowledge, time, experience, etc. "Predestination" in this sense is not strict, not the equivalent of determinism but rather associated with foreknowledge.

 

[Albion]

It just means that God uses our choices as part of the "equation" in determining our destinies, with us expected to do the best we can with whatever we've been given in terms of grace, revelation/knowledge, time, experience, etc.

But that's just a recital of the standard freewill POV. We already know what the Freewill churches believe. Yes, it's Freewill instead of Election.

 

[fwGod]

Because so many threads have topics where replies are a launch into disagreement and debate.. it's nice when a reply to the OP can be in agreement.

 

[fhansen]

But that's just a recital of the standard freewill POV. We already know what the Freewill churches believe. Yes, it's Freewill instead of Election.

It's an election that's associated with our wills, with whether or not we make our election sure. It's a cooperative effort: God giving, us receiving and acting on the gift-or not. And at the end of the day God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life. Meanwhile, we strive, willfully. The rest is pretty much academic.

 

[Si_monfaith]

If He predetermines their destiny then they can make no choices that could be merely foreknown by Him; He would make the choices for them. But instead they determine their destiny, by their choices. Otherwise we'd be saying that it's absolutely impossible for God to create a being with free will-simply because He cannot help but know the choices they will make. That would be like saying that, if you were miraculously given the gift of foreknowledge about a friend's choices, those choices would automatically be rendered not free.

As it is we're morally accountable beings because we're given the knowledge of justice; we know right from wrong. And this, incidentally, is why we can experience moral outrage or righteous indignation at atrocities and injustices committed in this world.

Did God give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil when He created them?

 

[fhansen]

Did God give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil when He created them?

Of course, they had the law written on their hearts. In their innocence, in fact, it didn't even occur to them to commit sin; they were unaware of it until they, themselves, were tempted and committed the first and most basic sin, that of disobedience of God. In order to commit that act they had to override their own consciences because God had spoken the most basic command to them which amounted to, 'I am the Lord your God, do as I say'. IOW, they knew better when eating of the fruit because they were expressly forbidden to eat of it.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Of course, they had the law written on their hearts. In their innocence, in fact, it didn't even occur to them to commit sin; they were unaware of it until they, themselves, were tempted and committed the first and most basic sin, that of disobedience of God. By that act they needed to override their own consciences because God has spoken the most basic command to them, 'Do as I say'. IOW, they knew better when eating of the fruit they were expressly forbidden to eat of it.

Genesis 3:22:"Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil".

Doesn't God say they started to have the knowledge of good & evil AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit & NOT before?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, it is.

Well, I believe the Calvinist only has two pieces of Scripture to defend their view on Unconditional Election and it is not a really good defense. For the Calvinist has to take Romans 9 and John 6:44 out of context in order to make Unconditional Election work.

Romans 9 is talking about the election of individuals, but it is referring to how God does not have to conform to Jewish ways of thinking, but it is God who is the One who decides how salvation should work.

30 "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:30-32).

John 6:44 that says that no man can come unto Christ unless the Father draws them. But if they were to read verse 45, it says this:

"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
(John 6:45).

Also, the Calvinist looks at the words "chosen," "elected," and or "predestinated" and jumps to the conclusion that this is talking about "Unconditional Election" (When this is not supported by the context). We are elected or chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Peter 1:1-2).

And as I recall, you already admitted it.

Not at all. Two pieces of Scripture taken out of context does not make a case for Calvinism. Sorry. Besides, there are far more verses that suggest we have a choice in regards to choosing God and in obeying Him of our own free will choice vs. any imaginary Calvinistic type language.

Anyway, it might be worthwhile for you to pose some question in the Reformed forum where I am sure there are people who will amplify this point for you.

Again, I am not actually interested in how Calvinists change the plain meaning of Scripture. I am sure I can Google what Calvinists believe. But that does not mean it makes sense in light of what the Bible plainly says.

I already answered this one.

Great, but I did not hear it. Why won't you help me to understand why the will of Christ (God) was being denied to him in regards to the Israelites? He desired to gather them like a hen gathers its chicks but they would not let Him do so. So this suggests that it was their choice that prevented Him (Jesus) from carrying out His desire or will for them.

When there are verses that seem clearly to support Predestination... it is not a matter of assuming something like a theoretical lack of oxygen at an earlier time in history, etc.

Unconditional Election is imaginary. Again, if it was true, then Jesus and His apostles would be saying things like, "You cannot do anything." "You have to see if you are elected or chosen by God." "If you are fortunate, and God has chosen you, then you are saved." But.... that is not how Scripture talks.

Eternal Security,

Yet another imaginary doctrine of men. 1 John 1:7 says a believer has to walk in the light as He [Christ] is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse them of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

I think there would be. God is just, so we do not doubt his role as judge. And if anyone comes to him as evil, unGodly, an unrepentant violator of the Ten Commandments, an unbeliever, etc. then it makes perfect sense for God to judge them unworthy. He created mankind good, but it (in Adam) chose something else. This we know from Scripture.

This is an oversimplification of God's laws and it is not even the correct covenant by which to seek which commands we are to follow. First, the Ten Commandments are a part of the Old Covenant. Second, there are 613 laws within the Law of Moses and not ten. It is impossible to obey all of the Old Law and yet also obey the commands in the New Covenant (or New Testament). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

As for God being a judge of evil people:
Well, that only makes sense for God to judge evil people if it was their choice to do evil and it was not God preventing them from the path of righteousness. God would in part be to blame if He is judging them for something they had no control or power over. That would be like a master who kicks his dog across the room because the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem (even when the master knows it has that problem). It would be cruel on the part of the master to do that to such a creature because it cannot help but to release hot steaming piles of brown goodness all over his carpet.

As for Adam:

While Adam placed mankind into a world of sin, and our bodies into being corrupted by a sinful nature, that does not mean that we are not given opportunities by the Lord's drawing to accept Him or reject Him in this life. Again, all the warnings in the Bible on how sin can destroy our souls would be pretty useless if Unconditional Election was true.

Just like the people who come to any one of dozens of other denominations through the influence of some other person, eh?

My understanding of God's Word did not come primarily by the understanding of the wisdom of men, but by asking God to show me the truth on Scripture, and by studying the Bible on my own (comparing Scripture with Scripture).

 

[Si_monfaith]

Well, I believe the Calvinist only has two pieces of Scripture to defend their view on Unconditional Election and it is not a really good defense. For the Calvinist has to take Romans 9 and John 6:44 out of context in order to make Unconditional Election work.

Romans 9 is talking about the election of individuals, but it is referring to how God does not have to conform to Jewish ways of thinking, but it is God who is the One who decides how salvation should work.

30 "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:30-32).

John 6:44 that says that no man can come unto Christ unless the Father draws them. But if they were to read verse 45, it says this:

"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
(John 6:45).

Also, the Calvinist looks at the words "chosen," "elected," and or "predestinated" and jumps to the conclusion that this is talking about "Unconditional Election" (When this is not supported by the context). We are elected or chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Peter 1:1-2).



Not at all. Two pieces of Scripture taken out of context does not make a case for Calvinism. Sorry. Besides, there are far more verses that suggest we have a choice in regards to choosing God and in obeying Him of our own free will choice vs. any imaginary Calvinistic type language.



Again, I am not actually interested in how Calvinists change the plain meaning of Scripture. I am sure I can Google what Calvinists believe. But that does not mean it makes sense in light of what the Bible plainly says.



Great, but I did not hear it. Why won't you help me to understand why the will of Christ (God) was being denied to him in regards to the Israelites? He desired to gather them like a hen gathers its chicks but they would not let Him do so. So this suggests that it was their choice that prevented Him (Jesus) from carrying out His desire or will for them.



Unconditional Election is imaginary. Again, if it was true, then Jesus and His apostles would be saying things like, "You cannot do anything." "You have to see if you are elected or chosen by God." "If you are fortunate, and God has chosen you, then you are saved." But.... that is not how Scripture talks.



Yet another imaginary doctrine of men. 1 John 1:7 says a believer has to walk in the light as He [Christ] is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse them of all sin. Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.



This is an oversimplification of God's laws and it is not even the correct covenant by which to seek which commands we are to follow. First, the Ten Commandments are a part of the Old Covenant. Second, there are 613 laws within the Law of Moses and not ten. It is impossible to obey all of the Old Law and yet also obey the commands in the New Covenant (or New Testament). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

As for God being a judge of evil people:
Well, that only makes sense for God to judge evil people if it was their choice to do evil and it was not God preventing them from the path of righteousness. God would in part be to blame if He is judging them for something they had no control or power over. That would be like a master who kicks his dog across the room because the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem (even when the master knows it has that problem). It would be cruel on the part of the master to do that to such a creature because it cannot help but to release hot steaming piles of brown goodness all over his carpet.

As for Adam:

While Adam placed mankind into a world of sin, and our bodies into being corrupted by a sinful nature, that does not mean that we are not given opportunities by the Lord's drawing to accept Him or reject Him in this life. Again, all the warnings in the Bible on how sin can destroy our souls would be pretty useless if Unconditional Election was true.



My understanding of God's Word did not come primarily by the understanding of the wisdom of men, but by asking God to show me the truth on Scripture, and by studying the Bible on my own (comparing Scripture with Scripture).

Genesis 3:22:"Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil".

Doesn't God say they started to have the knowledge of good & evil AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit & NOT before?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nowhere does Scripture connect Adam and Eve's receiving of the knowledge of good and evil with any Calvinistic verse or passage. In fact, there is no Calvinistic verses or passages in the Bible. You will not read about how Jesus said, "Sorry, you do not need to worry about hell or about sin because you are not elected or chosen to salvation." "Sorry. You already damned and there is nothing you can do about it." But did Jesus talk like that? No.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Nowhere does Scripture connect Adam and Eve's receiving of the knowledge of good and evil with any Calvinistic verse or passage. In fact, there is no Calvinistic verses or passages in the Bible. You will not read about how Jesus said, "Sorry, you do not need to worry about hell or about sin because you are not elected or chosen to salvation." "Sorry. You already damned and there is nothing you can do about it." But did Jesus talk like that? No.

Why did God create most though He foreknew they wouldn't believe in His Son?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why did God create most though He foreknew they wouldn't believe in His Son?

Sorry, you first have to address the problems I presented in Calvinism already. Why is there no place in the Bible where Jesus and His followers talk in a Calvinistic way (like you cannot live holy or accept the Lord) unless you are elected or chosen by God? Why does Jesus appear to teach the opposite of Calvinism in the fact that if you sin, your soul is at risk by hellfire? Why would God give us commands if we were elected and programmed to do what He desires of us automatically? Do you obey God's commands in the New Testament?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Sorry, you first have to address the problems I presented in Calvinism already. Why is there no place in the Bible where Jesus and His followers talk in a Calvinistic way (like you cannot live holy or accept the Lord) unless you are elected or chosen by God? Why does Jesus appear to teach the opposite of Calvinism in the fact that if you sin, your soul is at risk by hellfire? Why would God give us commands if we were elected and programmed to do what He desires of us automatically? Do you obey God's commands in the New Testament?

I understand you can't answer my question because if you try to, all your questions will sound ridiculous to you.