Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

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In short, I don't believe in Calvinism because I see free will (in regards to choosing God and obedience to Him) is taught in the Bible. We are given commands, and men have disobeyed them not because God wanted them to, but because they chose to disobey. Also, why have a judgment if God was the one who placed them there and they had no choice to be there?

Side Note:

Yes, I am aware that Calvinists believe that they can make every day free will choices, but they do not believe in making a free will choice when it comes to choosing God and then following His commands.
 
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Just for fun, seeing how it constantly refers to our having to choose the Lord..can you present 3 verses which say we choose to accept Jesus ?

Choose this day in whom you will serve...is something we should do each and everyday and isn't necessarily tied to salvation.

Why are we told to come unto Jesus if it is something we will automatically do?

NT Command: Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:28-29).​

Why are we commanded that we should believe in the name of Jesus Christ if it is something we are going to automatically do?

NT Command: This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).​

Why are we told to receive the Holy Ghost if it is something we are automatically going to do?

NT Command: Receive the Holy Ghost (John 20:22).

(Related: Revelation 22:17 says, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”).​

Why are we told to have faith in God the Father if it is something we are automatically going to do?

NT Command: Have faith in God (Mark 11:22).​

Why are we commanded to repent if it is something we are automatically going to do?

NT Command: "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent," (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

This is just one of the many reasons why Calvinism doesn't make any sense, unless somebody wants to change the plain written meaning of the text of the Bible every time they see a "free will" statement, or command, or a choice given to us, etc.
 
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The question that must be asked is whether God is almighty and sovereign as we all proclaim him to be, or whether, on the contrary, he must conform to our own standards of justice. (Notice, for instance, when people say things like "I feel that everybody has the chance...." or says that there cannot be a hell since that wouldn't be "fair" of God.)

Even the Gentiles keep the Law without having the Law (Romans 2:14-15). This means there are certain moral laws that are ingrained in them that they know are wrong. A Bible should not have to tell a person that the abuse of children is wrong, or that murder is wrong, etc. But usually when we read the Bible, it confirms what God is talking to our heart about what is good and right. Chances are if you cannot explain how your belief does not work in a moral or good sense, then it is false. But people hold to an odd number of beliefs because they do not think their fellow brethren can be wrong and they like them, and or the belief they have been accustomed to is like an old leather jacket. It is comfortable to them, and they don't want to change to see anything new. What they don't realize is that there is something out there that is far better.

You said:
None of us deserves salvation, after all, so it is not as though we are being cheated out of something to which we are entitled if someone else is saved but we are not.

I am sorry popular Christianity has taught you this. But Jesus actually says, "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." (Matthew 10:31).
 
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Yes, we are commanded to believe....but as my previous post pointed out unless God grants you the ability to come to Jesus...you can't.

The major flaw with free-will concerning salvation it the choice to choose Jesus is based upon personal life experience. That is, the road you walk may or may not lead to Christ.
Your choice to reject Jesus may be based upon a well delivered lecture by an atheist who proved to you there is no God.

Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

I believe in Prevenient Grace.

Click on the spoiler button to learn more:
I believe in Prevenient Grace. That God draws ALL men unto himself and that he gives them all an opportunity or opportunities to see the truth of the gospel to accept it of their own free will. Without this drawing or enlightenment by God, a person cannot understand the gospel (of which we see involving the first seed in the parable of the sower). But God lights every man that comes into the world. So every man (generally speaking) will know of the gospel.

Prevenient Grace Verses:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

Matthew 13:15 says,
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Therefore, seeing I believe in Prevenient Grace, you will get no argument from me that God has to draw us in order for us to see the gospel. I believe God chooses times in a person's life to see the gospel. But it is up to them and their own free will to accept or to reject the gospel.

If you believe in traditional 5 point Calvinism: Where we appear to differ is that "free will" is entirely an illusion and that God chooses some to be regenerated and saved and He does not choose others to be saved (based on no condition within the individual - Hence, why one of the five points is called "UNCONDITIONAL election"). This is not only illogical in light of reading Scripture, but it is also not consistent with basic morality 101. I mean, why have a judgment if there was no chance for man to do anything about their own situation to change it? That would be like a master who beats and yells at their dog for having an uncontrollable pooping problem (when the master knows that this dog is sick and has that problem). It makes no sense.
 
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Yes, we are commanded to believe....but as my previous post pointed out unless God grants you the ability to come to Jesus...you can't.

The major flaw with free-will concerning salvation it the choice to choose Jesus is based upon personal life experience. That is, the road you walk may or may not lead to Christ.
Your choice to reject Jesus may be based upon a well delivered lecture by an atheist who proved to you there is no God.

Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Also, a command suggests something we must do. But have all obeyed God's command? Even His people? Well, if Calvinism was true, they should perfectly obey God and be mindless obedient slaves that cannot help but to obey. But this is not what we see in reality. The whole of creation is in violation to God's commands (Which is where we get sin). God does not want people to sin. God is angry at the wicked every day according to the Psalms. So if God is angry, why doesn't He want to be happy and just elect or change them to be saved? Again, this why Calvinism doesn't make any sense.
 
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In short, I don't believe in Calvinism because I see free will is taught in the Bible.
We are given commands, and men have disobeyed them not because God wanted them to, but because they chose to disobey. Also, why have a judgment if God was the one who placed them there and they had no choice to be there?

Original sin places mankind into hell. Everyone who has ever lived and will live deserves hell. From those destined to hell God chooses His elect. To those God shows mercy and compassion.

Do you really think you could have freely chosen Christ if God didn't act in your life? Regenerate you first?
 
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Original sin places mankind into hell. Everyone who has ever lived and will live deserves hell. From those destined to hell God chooses His elect. To those God shows mercy and compassion.

Do you really think you could have freely chosen Christ if God didn't act in your life?

As I said, I believe in Prevenient Grace, and I gave you verses to check them out if you are interested in seeing them. Just click on the spoiler button in my previous post to you.

You said:
Regenerate you first?

The Bible says,
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," (Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

So no. The Bible does not teach that we must be regenerated or converted before repentance. The Bible says "repent....be converted."
 
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Why is it that opponents of election always say that the one thing that humans have wanted most of all, wanted throughout our history...might be "forced upon" them? Speaking of things that are illogical, that argument is something that ought to top the list.

I know there are different flavors of Calvinism, but do you not believe in one of the five points of Calvinism called "UNCONDITIONAL Election"?
 
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-57

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I believe in Prevenient Grace.

Click on the spoiler button to learn more:
I believe in Prevenient Grace. That God draws ALL men unto himself and that he gives them all an opportunity or opportunities to see the truth of the gospel to accept it of their own free will. Without this drawing or enlightenment by God, a person cannot understand the gospel (of which we see involving the first seed in the parable of the sower). But God lights every man that comes into the world. So every man (generally speaking) will know of the gospel.

Prevenient Grace Verses:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

Matthew 13:15 says,
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Therefore, seeing I believe in Prevenient Grace, you will get no argument from me that God has to draw us in order for us to see the gospel. I believe God chooses times in a person's life to see the gospel. But it is up to them and their own free will to accept or to reject the gospel.

If you believe in traditional 5 point Calvinism: Where we appear to differ is that "free will" is entirely an illusion and that God chooses some to be regenerated and saved and He does not choose others to be saved (based on no condition within the individual - Hence, why one of the five points is called "UNCONDITIONAL election"). This is not only illogical in light of reading Scripture, but it is also not consistent with basic morality 101. I mean, why have a judgment if there was no chance for man to do anything about their own situation to change it? That would be like a master who beats and yells at their dog for having an uncontrollable pooping problem (when the master knows that this dog is sick and has that problem). It makes no sense.

God judges because all men sin. All men fall short. Everyone deserves hell like I mentioned above.

I don't think every person sees the gospel. Someone in the middle of the jungle 1000 years go didn't hear the gospel.
God does and will present the gospel to His elect and they will say yes. As they are saying yes God is regenerating them. They have been given ears to hear.

Why would a person express their free-will and not receive Jesus? Your Armenian theology would have to say the choice is based upon their life experience. Do you really think your choice to receive Jesus is based upon life experience?
 
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-57

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As I said, I believe in Prevenient Grace, and I gave you verses to check them out if you are interested in seeing them. Just click on the spoiler button in my previous post to you.



The Bible says,
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," (Acts of the Apostles 13:9).

So no. The Bible does not teach that we must be regenerated or converted before repentance. The Bible says "repent....be converted."

You can't repent unless you are regenerated. Remember you are dead in your sins and trespasses and can't. At the moment of regeneration comes repentance and belief.
 
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You can't repent unless you are regenerated. Remember you are dead in your sins and trespasses and can't. At the moment of regeneration comes repentance and belief.

So you disagree with Acts of the Apostles 3:19?
Also, I said I believe in Prevenient Grace. This answers the problem of a person being able to respond on their own or not. See again my previous post to you with the spoiler button and check out the verses.
 
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God judges because all men sin. All men fall short. Everyone deserves hell like I mentioned above.

I don't think every person sees the gospel. Someone in the middle of the jungle 1000 years go didn't hear the gospel.
God does and will present the gospel to His elect and they will say yes. As they are saying yes God is regenerating them. They have been given ears to hear.

Why would a person express their free-will and not receive Jesus? Your Armenian theology would have to say the choice is based upon their life experience. Do you really think your choice to receive Jesus is based upon life experience?

People reject Christ of their own free will (under the drawing or enlightenment by God at the right time in their lives) because they prefer to choose the pleasure of their own sin.

For Moses made the choice to choose to be reproached for Christ rather than choosing the pleasure of sin for a season.

For Hebrews 11:25-26 says,

25 "Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward."
 
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-57

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So you disagree with Acts of the Apostles 3:19?
Also, I said I believe in Prevenient Grace. This answers the problem of a person being able to respond on their own or not. See again my previous post to you with the spoiler button and check out the verses.
Faith comes from hearing the Gospel. Faith is also a gift from God. Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Do you think God is going to give you not enough faith? Do you think the unregenerate person can have faith? Regeneration, faith and repentance happen at the same time.
 
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People reject Christ of their own free will (under the drawing or enlightenment by God at the right time in their lives) because they prefer to choose the pleasure of their own sin.

Yes, people will always reject Christ...as they are already condemned. John 3:18 They don't have the ability to even come to Christ unless God grants them the ability. John 6:65.
 
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Albion

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I know there are different flavors of Calvinism, but do you not believe in one of the five points of Calvinism called "UNCONDITIONAL Election"?
Well, if Election is true, I do not think that God chooses us on the basis of how good each of us is or isn't. Would you disagree with that?
 
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Well, if Election is true, I do not think that God chooses us on the basis of how good each of us is or isn't. Would you disagree with that?

Yes. God elects according to His foreknowledge of what good we are going to do.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, " (1 Peter 1:1-2).

"For I know the plans I have for you,” says the LORD. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope." (Jeremiah 29:11).
 
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Yes, people will always reject Christ...as they are already condemned. John 3:18 They don't have the ability to even come to Christ unless God grants them the ability. John 6:65.

I actually was not intending to debate Calvinism. I am more than capable of demolishing the ridiculousness of Calvinism, but it is really not worth my time. Common sense should tell a person that it is not only unbiblical, but it goes against basic morality. I merely created this thread as a means to not interrupt the thread in the Christian Advice section (Seeing we are not allowed to debate in the Christian Advice section of the forums). It's easy to forget, so when I noticed, I redirected the conversation here. But I am not going to endlessly debate this with you. If you don't see it, the only thing I can do is pray that God will reveal the truth to you on this topic someday.

Blessings to you in the Lord.
 
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Albion

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Yes. God elects according to His foreknowledge of what good we are going to do.
That's not what the verse you gave us in support of the idea says.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, " (1 Peter 1:1-2).
 
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That's not what the verse you gave us in support of the idea says.

Peter is elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD.
This means God chose Peter based on His future foreknowledge.
This implies that God chose Peter correctly because Peter actually did good for God's kingdom and he was not utterly useless (producing no fruit whatsoever).

According to Calvinism, God elects based on no conditions whatsoever. But His Word says He elects according to His future foreknowledge (Which implies that there is something in the future that is swaying God's decision in choosing).
 
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In short, I don't believe in Calvinism because I see free will is taught in the Bible.
We are given commands, and men have disobeyed them not because God wanted them to, but because they chose to disobey. Also, why have a judgment if God was the one who placed them there and they had no choice to be there?

Look at the oldest example with Eve. God knew she would disobey him yet still set that stipulation.
 
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