Why I dislike Calvinism

[RC1970]

Some things never change... do you want to build a straw man??

I could wile away the hours ... If I only had a brain.

 

[ICONBUSTERS]

I worked with three ladies in my factory making samples. These ladies were all Baptist, cheerful, decent, and I would not doubt if they were to tell me they were eternally saved, especially as I don't see it in their character. And this was also true of the old people in the Baptist church I was brought up in.

And then my generation came along.

In the Baptist church I was brought up in we had a large youth group and all the adults thought of them as angels and good saved Christians. That was until someone busted them in one of their dope smoking parties. I also met a lady who is in her fifties as well as I. This lady was Baptist, single, never married, and I thought we were the perfect fit... But the more that woman talked... Come to find out that she sees nothing wrong with the party or sex scene. I finally, after enduring much talk on carnality, said to her, "You know I don't believe you can do those things and get to heaven." Almost immediately she replies, "Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

Of all the young people I know growing up not a one of them shows any fruit of Christianity. The matters of eternal significance are the furthest thing from their carnal mind. I believe that the Lord also takes issues with this...

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

This is my main gripe against Calvinism, and that is it gives people a false sense of eternal security. This is a race to be run and not a destination at some point of doctrinal sense.

Hi Rocky:

I sympathize with your frustration. Christian discipleship requires a new birth from above which, in turn, necessarily manifests fruit which reflects the mind, values, ethics and teachings of Christ. In short, the spiritual birth instills the desire for holiness. God calls us to holiness.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9).

Such a desire for holiness is antithetical to that of the carnal man.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).

We Christians have every right to expect those who have professed Christ for years to bring forth good fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them (Matt. 7:18-20).

We do not hold those new to the faith to the same standard, for we know it takes time for their fruit to become evident.

Furthermore, we must also allow the sinning professing Christian the grace of repentance which is certainly an indication of God’s bringing forth good fruit in his/her life.

There are several issues interwoven in your post, not the least of which include:

1. Is salvation the work of man cooperating with the work of God, or is salvation all of God?

2. Is man’s will free to obey the Gospel and follow Christ?

3. Did we choose Christ or did He choose us?

4. If He chose us, is it possible He lose one He chose?

5. Is holiness a requirement for Heaven?

6. If yes, then is not placing such a requirement adding works to faith, resulting in a faith + works false Gospel?

7. Is it possible for Jesus to be your Savior without His being your Lord?

All these questions have sound biblical answers. May our Lord bless you in your journey toward truth.

 

[rockytopva]

Hi Rocky:

I sympathize with your frustration. Christian discipleship requires a new birth from above which, in turn, necessarily manifests fruit which reflects the mind, values, ethics and teachings of Christ. In short, the spiritual birth instills the desire for holiness. God calls us to holiness.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9).

Such a desire for holiness is antithetical to that of the carnal man.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).

We Christians have every right to expect those who have professed Christ for years to bring forth good fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them (Matt. 7:18-20).

We do not hold those new to the faith to the same standard, for we know it takes time for their fruit to become evident.

Furthermore, we must also allow the sinning professing Christian the grace of repentance which is certainly an indication of God’s bringing forth good fruit in his/her life.

There are several issues interwoven in your post, not the least of which include:

1. Is salvation the work of man cooperating with the work of God, or is salvation all of God?

2. Is man’s will free to obey the Gospel and follow Christ?

3. Did we choose Christ or did He choose us?

4. If He chose us, is it possible He lose one He chose?

5. Is holiness a requirement for Heaven?

6. If yes, then is not placing such a requirement adding works to faith, resulting in a faith + works false Gospel?

7. Is it possible for Jesus to be your Savior without His being your Lord?

All these questions have sound biblical answers. May our Lord bless you in your journey toward truth.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. -Romans 12:1

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

" Of all the young people I know growing up not a one of them shows any fruit of Christianity. The matters of eternal significance are the furthest thing from their carnal mind. I believe that the Lord also takes issues with this..."

True, so true. Applies to mulitudes as clearly spoken by the Father in heaven, written in His Word, unchangeable.

 

[DeaconDean]

" Of all the young people I know growing up not a one of them shows any fruit of Christianity. The matters of eternal significance are the furthest thing from their carnal mind. I believe that the Lord also takes issues with this..."

True, so true. Applies to mulitudes as clearly spoken by the Father in heaven, written in His Word, unchangeable.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." -1 Cor. 13:11 (KJV)

Are new Christians born again mature?

And even at that, do mature Christians always show what you expect?

I know of one Apostle who sinned at least twice, as recorded in scripture, after Pentecost.

I know of another Apostle who sinned at least twice, as recorded in scripture after he was called too.

Fact is, none of us are perfect and never will be in this life.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus never told a fib. The Apostles and disciples knew what He meant when He told them that they must be PERFECT as their HEAVENLY FATHER IS PERFECT. The Apostles and disciples did NOT KNOW ENGLISH (thankfully! whew!) because perfect in english (as thought here) is NOT the same as PERFECT in Hebrew thought, language and life , nor Aramaic, nor Greek. English is not meaning the same thing....
And so, the Apostles and disciples were PERFECT as JESUS told them they must be. Just not like english tells them.
Likewise throughout the New Testament, not only were they PERFECT, they lived also IN UNION WITH JESUS .....
every day...

 

[DeaconDean]

And so, the Apostles and disciples were PERFECT as JESUS told them they must be. Just not like english tells them.
Likewise throughout the New Testament, not only were they PERFECT, they lived also IN UNION WITH JESUS .....
every day...

Disobeying the God perfect? (cf. Acts 10:13-16)

Being a hypocrite, teaching others to be hypocrites is perfect? (Gal 2:11-14)

Disobeying the Holy Spirit is being perfect? (Cf Acts 21:4, 12)

Reviling a High Priest is being perfect? (Cf. Acts 23:4-5)

You have your truth, I have the scriptures.

Good luck with that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[rockytopva]

There is a difference in trying and failing *and* not-caring and failing. There are people who go out there and willfully sin and think nothing of going to church on Sunday as though they were without fault. People who honestly mean well and still sin I believe are still saved, but need to grow up a little bit. There are people who go out there and sin and have no repentance.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The older I get, the more I regard Eternal Security/OSAS as a logical extension of sola fide. If faith alone is the only thing one needs for salvation, it's a challenge because everybody's faith lapses at some point or another. Given a long enough period of time, we'll all struggle with it.

But if merely placing faith in Our Lord is all that's required for salvation and if the act of doing so is eternal in nature, it immunizes the believer from those inevitable crises of faith that's a part of anybody's journey.

The dark side to that is some people will eventually view Eternal Security almost as permission. It won't be news to any of you that there is a problem of carnality all through the body, whether they're Calvinists who believe in OSAS or not. But as a theology, Calvinism more readily lends itself to that type of thinking than other ideas do.

 

[DeaconDean]

There is a difference in trying and failing *and* not-caring and failing. There are people who go out there and willfully sin and think nothing of going to church on Sunday as though they were without fault. People who honestly mean well and still sin I believe are still saved, but need to grow up a little bit. There are people who go out there and sin and have no repentance.

And what has that to do with "Calvinism"?

Isn't that a problem with all churches, all denominations?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

The older I get, the more I regard Eternal Security/OSAS as a logical extension of sola fide. If faith alone is the only thing one needs for salvation, it's a challenge because everybody's faith lapses at some point or another. Given a long enough period of time, we'll all struggle with it.

But if merely placing faith in Our Lord is all that's required for salvation and if the act of doing so is eternal in nature, it immunizes the believer from those inevitable crises of faith that's a part of anybody's journey.

The dark side to that is some people will eventually view Eternal Security almost as permission. It won't be news to any of you that there is a problem of carnality all through the body, whether they're Calvinists who believe in OSAS or not. But as a theology, Calvinism more readily lends itself to that type of thinking than other ideas do.

People often confuse "OSAS" with "antinomianism".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ICONBUSTERS]

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. -Romans 12:1

Excellent Scripture cited, Rocky. Another one I particularly find useful is: without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

At regeneration God implants His Spirit. His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. A new heart is given which manifests holy desires, words and actions. Over time the old nature which found the things of the world so alluring dissipates. That which was once abhorrent – godliness – attracts us more and more.

Holiness does not infer sinlessness. Rather it infers a life style and love of the truth which reflect a steady progress in one’s sanctification, which is the efficacious, gracious work of God in the life of a believer resulting in his/her obedience (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thess. 2:13).

IMHO, holiness takes two forms: that which can be seen and heard by men (external), and that which is invisible to the naked eye (internal: the heart).

External holiness can be faked. Internal holiness cannot.

The Pharisees were perfect examples of pseudo holy men. The ignorant people thought their mode of dress, long public prayers, frequent fasts and hand washings were all indicators of holiness.

Jesus thought otherwise:

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity (Matthew 23:27-28).

Jesus understood the depth of man’s depravity when He stated:

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man (Matthew 15:18-20).

A new heart is absolutely necessary to overcome man’s propensity to commit the aforementioned sins.

Today professing Christendom is filled with ‘religious’ leaders and laity who, in the eyes of the world, are paragons of virtue, ethics and morality. However, when measured against the Word of God, despite their religious profession and outward appearance, they are found to be covert enemies of Christ, haters of the true God, the seed of the serpent.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:8-9).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Excellent Scripture cited, Rocky. Another one I particularly find useful is: without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

At regeneration God implants His Spirit. His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. A new heart is given which manifests holy desires, words and actions. Over time the old nature which found the things of the world so alluring dissipates. That which was once abhorrent – godliness – attracts us more and more.

Holiness does not infer sinlessness. Rather it infers a life style and love of the truth which reflect a steady progress in one’s sanctification, which is the efficacious, gracious work of God in the life of a believer resulting in his/her obedience (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thess. 2:13).

IMHO, holiness takes two forms: that which can be seen and heard by men (external), and that which is invisible to the naked eye (internal: the heart).

External holiness can be faked. Internal holiness cannot.

When discussing regeneration, we must also deal with the reality that a regenerated person is fully capable of grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul gave the commands to "be filled with the Holy Spirit" and to "walk by means of the Holy Spirit".

Though all regenerated people are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, not all (maybe not many) are filled with the Spirit. The evidence across the evangelical landscape suggests not many.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:9).

This verse sounds like sinless perfection.

However, the words "born of God" refers to regeneration, the new nature, which "doth not commit sin". All regenerated people still have their sinful human nature, which is why Paul wrote about the war between the new nature and sinful nature in Gal 5:17 - "For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."

The words "his seed remaineth in him" refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit, who remains in the believer.

The phrase "he cannot sin, becasuse he is born of God" makes the point that sin is not possible from the new, regenerated nature.

So, the issue is whether the believer is in fellowship and filled with the Holy Spirit, or out of fellowship, and grieving/quenching the Spirit.

This is spiritual warfare.

 

[ICONBUSTERS]

When discussing regeneration, we must also deal with the reality that a regenerated person is fully capable of grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul gave the commands to "be filled with the Holy Spirit" and to "walk by means of the Holy Spirit".

Though all regenerated people are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, not all (maybe not many) are filled with the Spirit. The evidence across the evangelical landscape suggests not many.


This verse sounds like sinless perfection.

However, the words "born of God" refers to regeneration, the new nature, which "doth not commit sin". All regenerated people still have their sinful human nature, which is why Paul wrote about the war between the new nature and sinful nature in Gal 5:17 - "For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."

The words "his seed remaineth in him" refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit, who remains in the believer.

The phrase "he cannot sin, becasuse he is born of God" makes the point that sin is not possible from the new, regenerated nature.

So, the issue is whether the believer is in fellowship and filled with the Holy Spirit, or out of fellowship, and grieving/quenching the Spirit.

This is spiritual warfare.

Hi there FreeGrace2:

Thanks for your valuable input.

I don’t believe the OP was intended to deny the fact that even the best of us are still sinners saved by grace alone, still far from perfect, capable of grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit should we take our eyes off Jesus.

Nor was it his intention to discount the fact we are all engaged in spiritual warfare in some form.

Rather, I believe Rocky was making a valid critique on this issue: There is an ever-growing trend in the professing Christian Church to minimize Christ’s call to discipleship. Included in that call is denial of self, taking up one's cross daily and following Christ (Luke 9:23).

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it (verse 24).

It is impossible to have Christ as Savior without His being your Lord.

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (Acts 16:30-31).

…….and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3).

Of course, Paul is not teaching a mere empty profession whereby one claims “Jesus is Lord.” He is speaking of a truthful, fruitful profession that is made only by a Holy Spirit regenerated believer.

Rocky, is making the point that, in his experience, there are multitudes deluded into believing they are Christians when they so obviously lack the very fruit of the Spirit which testifies to their true conversion.

In other words, they were never indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the first place.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi there FreeGrace2:

Thanks for your valuable input.

I don’t believe the OP was intended to deny the fact that even the best of us are still sinners saved by grace alone, still far from perfect, capable of grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit should we take our eyes off Jesus.

Nor was it his intention to discount the fact we are all engaged in spiritual warfare in some form.

I agree.

It is impossible to have Christ as Savior without His being your Lord.

They cannot be separated. But recall what Peter told saved, regenerated, elect people in 1 Peet 3:15 - But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

When a believer sins, who's on the throne of their life? They are.

Rocky, is making the point that, in his experience, there are multitudes deluded into believing they are Christians when they so obviously lack the very fruit of the Spirit which testifies to their true conversion.

In other words, they were never indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the first place.

There is a great delusion that "walking an aisle" or "raising a hand" or "praying the sinner's prayer" reselts in salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

No doubt there are many in evangelical churches who think they are saved for these reasons.

The best way to determine who is deceived is to ask them how to be saved The answers are quite sad in many cases.

 

[Copperhead]

Just like with most things, the river of truth runs between Calvanism and Arminianism. Both are correct in what they assert, but both are wrong in what they deny. And both doctrines have been taken far to the extreme from what the originators intended. I generally side step the debate by considering myself a Calvanistic Arminian. There is strong biblical arguments for both positions, but again, the river of truth runs between them when the full counsel of God is looked at.

 

[ICONBUSTERS]

There is a great delusion that "walking an aisle" or "raising a hand" or "praying the sinner's prayer" reselts in salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

No doubt there are many in evangelical churches who think they are saved for these reasons.

The best way to determine who is deceived is to ask them how to be saved The answers are quite sad in many cases.

Yes, indeed, brother. Then there is the issue of what, exactly, was the divine mechanism behind their salvation?

It has been my experience in dialoguing with Christians worldwide the majority hold the core belief that their election unto salvation was contingent upon God’s foreseeing their faith in Christ. As a result, God then elected them to partake in the salvation they enjoy today.

Sadly, that couldn’t be farther from the truth.

The favorite Scripture cited to prove their position is 1 Peter 2:1:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

 

[ICONBUSTERS]

Just like with most things, the river of truth runs between Calvanism and Arminianism. Both are correct in what they assert, but both are wrong in what they deny. And both doctrines have been taken far to the extreme from what the originators intended. I generally side step the debate by considering myself a Calvanistic Arminian. There is strong biblical arguments for both positions, but again, the river of truth runs between them when the full counsel of God is looked at.

Hello Copperhead:

Are you saying there is a river of truth between Monergism and Synergism, like semi-Monergism and semi-Synergism? Please explain further when time allows. Thanks.

 

[ICONBUSTERS]

There is a difference in trying and failing *and* not-caring and failing. There are people who go out there and willfully sin and think nothing of going to church on Sunday as though they were without fault. People who honestly mean well and still sin I believe are still saved, but need to grow up a little bit. There are people who go out there and sin and have no repentance.

Rocky:

There is a perpetual battle between carnal disobedient Christianity and biblical obedient Christianity.

To obey Christ is to prove your love for Him:

If you love me you will keep my commandments (John 14:15 ESV)

Those who disregard His commandments prove otherwise.

Obedient Christians are the friends of Christ:

You are my friends if you do what I command you (John 15:14 ESV).

Those who disregard His commandments prove otherwise.

Renowned Baptist, the late Dr. John R. Rice, advocates for carnal Christianity, a common occurrence in today’s morass of professing Christianity.

Below I cite Dr. Rice’s book, Dr. Rice, Here Are More Questions….Vol ll (1973, Sword of the Lord Publishers, P.98)

Q. 45: Should I wonder if I were truly saved since I swear now more than ever?

Dr. Rice: If you trusted Jesus Christ as Saviour the best you knew and committed yourself to Him, then He saved you. His promise is so explicit. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). Again, He says in Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” If you wanted to be saved and asked the Lord Jesus to save you, or whether you put it in words or not, if you trusted Him to save you, then He did.

It is sad that you have a wicked, sinful habit of swearing, taking God’s name in vain. I say it is wicked and it is sad that you do. But that does not prove that you are lost….the sin does not mean you are not saved.

The wicked swearing sinner in question did not call on the Lord Jesus Christ.

He did, however, call on the false, carnal Christ as fire insurance to be used only when absolutely necessary, certainly not in the everyday dealings of life and its many temptations.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, indeed, brother. Then there is the issue of what, exactly, was the divine mechanism behind their salvation?

It has been my experience in dialoguing with Christians worldwide the majority hold the core belief that their election unto salvation was contingent upon God’s foreseeing their faith in Christ. As a result, God then elected them to partake in the salvation they enjoy today.

Sadly, that couldn’t be farther from the truth.

The favorite Scripture cited to prove their position is 1 Peter 2:1:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

Again, the whole problem is viewing election as being chosen for salvation. Eph 1:4 seems clear to me; "God chose us (believers) to be holy and blameless (Christ-like)."

God elected believers to service. That's our calling.
Eph 4:1 - As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.