DeaconDean
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Why I dislike Calvinism
- Thread starter rockytopva
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I would believe that this would be the word to the Calvinist people....
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5
Yes, you are saved.... But there is a race to be run.
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DeaconDean
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DeaconDean
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So, would you say Jesus lied when He said:
All that thou hast given me, I have kept except the son of Perdition.
And:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)
Evidently, you believe man is more powerful than God to believe man can take himself out of God's hand.
And lets say you do for a time walk away, who is it that comes and seeks you out?
But, you getting off topic here.
Like I said, I wanted to know what the 7 churches had to do with Calvinism, not get into and argument/debate on "Perseverance of the Saints".
God Bless
Till all are one.
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I believe the seven seals the names of those of the seven churches. And it is not for we to know who are of the congregations. The book of life is the business of God and not of the Calvinist. As the Lord told Moses...
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32
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DeaconDean
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Read the parable of the Prodigal Son.
"Parable": "a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels."
Even at his worse state, at what point did the prodigal cease to be his fathers son?
rockytopva said:
There are two places in Peter that dispute what you say:
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:" -1 Pet. 1:2 (KJV)
This tells us who Peter was addressing, the "elect of God".
And what does Peter say about the "elect"?
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" -1 Pet. 1:5 (KJV)
"1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God
This is a description of the persons for whom the inheritance is reserved in heaven; they are not only chosen to salvation, and begotten again to an inheritance, but they are preserved unto it; their happiness is very great; their inheritance is safe in heaven for them, and they are kept below, amidst a thousand snares and difficulties, till they safely arrive to the possession of that: they are kept, not in and by themselves, the way of man is not in himself; nor in the hands of angels, for no such trust does God put in them; but in the hands of Jesus Christ, where they are safe, and out of which none can pluck them; on him, as a foundation, and in him, as a strong hold; they are kept in the love of God, and on his heart, from whence they can never be separated, and in the covenant of grace, out of which they will never be put; and in a state of justification, and shall never enter into condemnation; and in the family of God, for, being sons, they are no more servants; and in a state of grace and holiness, in the fear of God, and faith of Christ, and love to both; and in the path of truth, from whence they can never finally and totally fall: for though they are not kept from the being of sin, and the workings of it, and slips and falls into it, yet from being destroyed by it; and though not from Satan, and his temptations, yet from being overcome by them; and though not entirely from unbelief, doubts, and fears, yet from final unbelief; for Christ prays for them, that their faith fail not; and from a final and total falling away from grace into sin: and they are kept thus, not by their own power and might, or that of any mere creature, but "by the power of God"; meaning, not the Gospel, nor the Spirit of God, but the perfection of his power; by which they are kept, as with a guard, or in a garrison, as the word here used signifies; not only angels encamp about them, and salvation is for walls and bulwarks, all around them; but God himself, in the perfection of his power, is a wall of fire to them; he is round about them from henceforth and for ever; their place of defence is the munition of rocks; his name is a strong tower, where they run and are safe:"
Source
This right here disproves your point. God has the power to keep the elect through faith unto salvation.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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FreeGrace2
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Please provide any verse that says salvation is by election, or we are saved by election. Problem solved.
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FreeGrace2
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Again, my pleasure.
I said this:
"Jesus Christ, the Elect One, serves as Savior"
This misses the point. The reformed doctrine is about being elected TO salvation.
How do you not understand that this is directly about SERVICE.
There are no such verses to support this claim.
Actually, mankind. 1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
According to the Bible, yes. See above.
Who says the vast majority is bereft of knowledge of salvation. Many understand it clearly and simply reject it.
But, as we all know, in order to come to salvation, one must "believe that God exists", per Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Now, how do we know that God has revealed Himself to everyone? The Bible says so clearly.
Rom 1:19-21 -
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
The command to Israel was to be "a light to the Gentiles". Acts 13:47 - For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “ ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
Sound familiar?
I have provided very clear verses that actually say what I am claiming. I expect other posters to do the same. None of this "common sense logic", which seems to be more of something to hide behind when there are no verses to support one's claims
Yes. For service.
Right. Election is unconditional. But not to salvation.
To service.
Ultimately.
Is there any verse that says that Abram was elected to salvation? No.
In the NT, all believers are elect. And we already know from Rom 5:1 that we are justified by faith, not by election. So it seems you've confused or conflated some things here. "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
According to your statement here, we are justified by election. Which is simply not true.
So does election. Rom 9:11 - Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
Yes, that too.
You're attempting to change the verse by your statement. There is nothing in this verse that says that God's calling results in justification/glorification.
The verse does say that those He called He also justified/etc.
It doesn't say that at all.
I don't believe anyone would argue with that.
Yet, there are no verses that say that. And certainly none in Rom 8.
The verse does not say they were "called to justification". I believe you're reading into the verse your bias. Which is eisegesis.
I would appreciate if you would visit my thread on the purpose of election in the "debate a Calvinist" in the folder "semper reformada".
There, please address my points and explain why I'm wrong. Thanks.
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I don't understand how you are relating return on investment (your words, not mine, I wouldn't call my service to Christ that at all, more of 'a love so His will be done') but how does this show that a a person works for their salvation, specifically the tie to salvation you are trying to make.
Because as the Bible says all good works in us are Christ in us, then all our good works and servanthood are in Christ.
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Good works are a fruit of salvation, but not the source of salivation...
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7
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Well, works justifies that there is a fruitful spirit on the inside, and thus a conversion.
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"The Barren Fig Tree" (http://www.chapellib.../bun-barren.pdf) - By John Bunyan
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9
In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.
First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.
The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.
The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For,
1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father (Luke 15:11).
2. By the vineyard, his church (Isa 5:7).
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-trees barrenness, the professors fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dressers interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Fathers axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dressers desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professors unavoidable and eternal damnation.
But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard. The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in Gods church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.
Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away, assert the same thing (John 15:2). There are branches in Christ, in Christs body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isa 5:4). Again, Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself, none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that Gods church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9
In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.
First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.
The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.
The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For,
1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father (Luke 15:11).
2. By the vineyard, his church (Isa 5:7).
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-trees barrenness, the professors fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dressers interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Fathers axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dressers desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professors unavoidable and eternal damnation.
But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard. The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in Gods church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.
Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away, assert the same thing (John 15:2). There are branches in Christ, in Christs body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isa 5:4). Again, Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself, none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that Gods church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.
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Let’s review the earlier statements by FreeGrace2 which initiated this discussion:
For reasons unknown to me, FreeGrace2 denies the several biblical examples I noted which prove my thesis: The calling to service is given to the reprobate as well as the elect. It is not limited to believers.
Thus, a calling to service in His Body does not prove one is a true believer.
Election unto salvation, however, is a distinct election expressing God’s eternal decree concerning specific individuals to whom God determined to bestow saving grace according to the good pleasure of His will.
“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.”
The choice is God’s alone.
I cited the case of Judas Iscariot, chosen/elected/selected/picked/called by Christ to serve in the office of Apostleship, yet was a devil, the son of perdition, a reprobate.
Though Judas was elected/chosen/called to service, he was not elected/chosen/called to salvation.
His election to service proved nothing regarding his eternal destiny.
Nor does the call to service prove John Q. Smith is a justified Christian on his way to glorification.
However, according to FreeGrace2 Judas supports his thesis that believers are called to service:
Never mind the fact that Judas was an unbeliever called to service.
FreeGrace2 also insists election has everything to do with believers' service to God and nothing to do with eternal salvation:
If that is the case, words have no meaning.
For to profess being a Christian is to profess one’s election unto salvation.
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost (1 Thess.1:2-6).
Paul understood the Thessalonians were true Christians elected to salvation by God.
He, in no way, even suggests they were elected to service only.
Rather, he knew they believed the Gospel because the Holy Spirit accompanied the Word in power giving them the assurance that both the preacher and the preaching were absolutely truthful.
They were true disciples of Christ, their fruit bearing witness.
FreeGrace2 continues:
On the contrary, this is grace.
Not our grace given to God, but God’s grace given to us.
Not our gift of faith given to God, but God’s gift of faith given to us.
Here we have the crux of the controversy surrounding the doctrine of Election.
For reasons unknown to this present writer, there seems to be chasm of immense proportions in the minds of too many sincere professing Christians when confronted with the biblical doctrine of election unto salvation by the sovereign grace of God.
A SHORT EXPLANATION
Not only does our God elect certain sinful, hateful individuals to salvation, He predestines the means to that end.
Included in those predestined means is the gift of faith……the faith of the Elect, which is a living faith working through love.
Men do not naturally possess such a faith.
They are spiritually dead in sins and trespasses, disobedient, followers of the prince of the power of the air, by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2).
Literal dead men cannot heed the call of their weeping loved ones.
Neither can spiritual dead men heed the call of God through His Word.
They must be given ears to hear:
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
It is God who gives ears to hear:
Ears to hear and eyes to see--both are gifts from the LORD (Proverbs 20:12).
But spiritually dead sinners must first be made spiritually alive before they can heed the call to follow Christ.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins…..quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved) (Eph. 2:1, 5).
Once man is born anew/regenerated/quickened, having been given ears to hear, he must, in addition, be given a new heart.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).
Therefore, God supplies that which the Elect lack: a new heart, obedient to the will of God:
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God (Ezekiel 11:19-20).
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
CONCLUSION: God does not elect believers. He elects deaf, dead, hate filled unbelievers to salvation, the fruit of which, among many other things, is service to God.
He raises the Elect from spiritual death by the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells them, heals them of spiritual deafness, gives them a new heart to believe and which loves God, as well as the desire and fortitude to follow Christ to the very end.
We love him, because he first loved us (1 John 4:19).
…in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph. 1:4b-5).
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Eph. 2:4-5).
TO BE CONTINUED
For reasons unknown to me, FreeGrace2 denies the several biblical examples I noted which prove my thesis: The calling to service is given to the reprobate as well as the elect. It is not limited to believers.
Thus, a calling to service in His Body does not prove one is a true believer.
Election unto salvation, however, is a distinct election expressing God’s eternal decree concerning specific individuals to whom God determined to bestow saving grace according to the good pleasure of His will.
“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.”
The choice is God’s alone.
I cited the case of Judas Iscariot, chosen/elected/selected/picked/called by Christ to serve in the office of Apostleship, yet was a devil, the son of perdition, a reprobate.
Though Judas was elected/chosen/called to service, he was not elected/chosen/called to salvation.
His election to service proved nothing regarding his eternal destiny.
Nor does the call to service prove John Q. Smith is a justified Christian on his way to glorification.
However, according to FreeGrace2 Judas supports his thesis that believers are called to service:
Never mind the fact that Judas was an unbeliever called to service.
FreeGrace2 also insists election has everything to do with believers' service to God and nothing to do with eternal salvation:
If that is the case, words have no meaning.
For to profess being a Christian is to profess one’s election unto salvation.
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost (1 Thess.1:2-6).
Paul understood the Thessalonians were true Christians elected to salvation by God.
He, in no way, even suggests they were elected to service only.
Rather, he knew they believed the Gospel because the Holy Spirit accompanied the Word in power giving them the assurance that both the preacher and the preaching were absolutely truthful.
They were true disciples of Christ, their fruit bearing witness.
FreeGrace2 continues:
On the contrary, this is grace.
Not our grace given to God, but God’s grace given to us.
Not our gift of faith given to God, but God’s gift of faith given to us.
Here we have the crux of the controversy surrounding the doctrine of Election.
For reasons unknown to this present writer, there seems to be chasm of immense proportions in the minds of too many sincere professing Christians when confronted with the biblical doctrine of election unto salvation by the sovereign grace of God.
A SHORT EXPLANATION
Not only does our God elect certain sinful, hateful individuals to salvation, He predestines the means to that end.
Included in those predestined means is the gift of faith……the faith of the Elect, which is a living faith working through love.
Men do not naturally possess such a faith.
They are spiritually dead in sins and trespasses, disobedient, followers of the prince of the power of the air, by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2).
Literal dead men cannot heed the call of their weeping loved ones.
Neither can spiritual dead men heed the call of God through His Word.
They must be given ears to hear:
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
It is God who gives ears to hear:
Ears to hear and eyes to see--both are gifts from the LORD (Proverbs 20:12).
But spiritually dead sinners must first be made spiritually alive before they can heed the call to follow Christ.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins…..quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved) (Eph. 2:1, 5).
Once man is born anew/regenerated/quickened, having been given ears to hear, he must, in addition, be given a new heart.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).
Therefore, God supplies that which the Elect lack: a new heart, obedient to the will of God:
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God (Ezekiel 11:19-20).
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
CONCLUSION: God does not elect believers. He elects deaf, dead, hate filled unbelievers to salvation, the fruit of which, among many other things, is service to God.
He raises the Elect from spiritual death by the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells them, heals them of spiritual deafness, gives them a new heart to believe and which loves God, as well as the desire and fortitude to follow Christ to the very end.
We love him, because he first loved us (1 John 4:19).
…in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph. 1:4b-5).
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) (Eph. 2:4-5).
TO BE CONTINUED
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THE EPISTLE TO ALL THE SLOTHFUL AND CARELESS PEOPLE
Friends,
Solomon saith, that The desire of the slothful killeth him; and if so, what will slothfulness itself do to those that entertain it? (Prov 21:25). The proverb is, He that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame (Prov 10:5). And this I dare be bold to say, no greater shame can befall a man, than to see that he hath fooled away his soul, and sinned away eternal life. And I am sure this is the next way to do it; namely, to be slothful; slothful, I say, in the work of salvation. The vineyard of the slothful man, in reference to the things of this life, is not fuller of briars, nettles, and stinking weeds, than he that is slothful for heaven, hath his heart full of heart-choaking and soul-damning sin.
Slothfulness hath these two evils: First, To neglect the time in which it should be getting of heaven; and by that means doth, in the Second place, bring in untimely repentance. I will warrant you, that he who shall lose his soul in this world through slothfulness, will have no cause to be glad thereat when he comes to hell.
Slothfulness is usually accompanied with carelessness, and carelessness is for the most part begotten by senselessness; and senselessness doth again put fresh strength into slothfulness, and by this means the soul is left remediless.
Slothfulness shutteth out Christ; slothfulness shameth the soul (Cant 5:2-4; Prov 13:4).
Slothfulness, it is condemned even by the feeblest of all the creatures. Go to the ant, thou sluggard, consider her ways and be wise (Prov 6:6). The sluggard will not plow by reason of the cold (20:4); that is, he will not break up the fallow ground of his heart, because there must be some pains taken by him that will do it; therefore shall he beg in harvest, that is, when the saints of God shall have their glorious heaven and happiness given to them; but the sluggard shall have nothing, that is, be never the better for his crying for mercy, according to that in Matthew 25:10-12.
If you would know a sluggard in the things of heaven, compare him with one that is slothful in the things of this world. As, 1. He that is slothful is loth to set about the work he should follow: so is he that is slothful for heaven. 2. He that is slothful is one that is willing to make delays: so is he that is slothful for heaven. 3. He that is a sluggard, any small matter that cometh in between, he will make it a sufficient excuse to keep him off from plying his work: so it is also with him that is slothful for heaven. 4. He that is slothful doth his work by the halves; and so it is with him that is slothful for heaven. He may almost, but he shall never altogether obtain perfection of deliverance from hell; he may almost, but he shall never, without he mend, be altogether a saint. 5. They that are slothful, do usually lose the season in which things are to be done: and thus it is also with them that are slothful for heaven, they miss the season of grace. And therefore, 6. They that are slothful have seldom or never good fruit: so also it will be with the soul-sluggard. 7. They that are slothful they are chid for the same: so also will Christ deal with those that are not active for him. Thou wicked or slothful servant, out of thine own mouth will I judge thee; thou saidst I was thus, and thus, wherefore then gavest not thou my money to the bank? &c. (Luke 19:22). Take the unprofitable servant, and cast him into utter darkness, where shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:26-30).
WHAT SHALL I SAY? Time runs; and will you be slothful? Much of your lives are past; and will you be slothful? Your souls are worth a thousand worlds; and will you be slothful? The day of death and judgment is at the door; and will you be slothful? The curse of God hangs over your heads; and will you be slothful? Besides, the devils are earnest, laborious, and seek by all means every day, by every sin, to keep you out of heaven, and hinder you of salvation; and will you be slothful? Also your neighbours are diligent for things that will perish; and will you be slothful for things that will endure for ever? Would you be willing to be damned for slothfulness? Would you be willing the angels of God should neglect to fetch your souls away to heaven when you lie a-dying, and the devils stand by ready to scramble for them? Was Christ slothful in the work of your redemption? Are his ministers slothful in tendering this unto you? And, lastly, If all this will not move, I tell you God will not be slothful or negligent to damn you, whose damnation now of a long time slumbereth not, nor the devils will not neglect to fetch thee, nor hell neglect to shut it's mouth upon thee.
Sluggard, art thou asleep still? art thou resolved to sleep the sleep of death? Wilt neither tidings from heaven or hell awake thee? Wilt thou say still, Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, and a little folding of the hands to sleep? (Prov 6:10). Wilt thou yet turn thyself in thy sloth, as the door is turned upon the hinges? O that I was one that was skillful in lamentation, and had but a yearning heart towards thee, how would I pity thee! How would I bemoan thee! O that I could with Jeremiah let my eyes run down with rivers of water for thee! Poor soul, lost soul, dying soul, what a hard heart have I that I cannot mourn for thee! If thou shouldst lose but a limb, a child, or a friend, it would not be so much, but poor man it is THY SOUL; if it was to lie in hell but for a day, but for a year, nay, ten thousand years, it would (in comparison) be nothing. But O it is for ever! O this cutting EVER! What a soul-amazing word will that be, which saith, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire! &c.
Object. But if I should set in, and run as you would have me, then I must run from all my friends; for none of them are running that way.
Answ. And if thou dost, thou wilt run into the bosom of Christ and of God, and then what harm will that do thee?
Object. But if I run this way, then I must run from all my sins.
Answ. That is true indeed; yet if thou dost not, thou wilt run into hell-fire.
Object. But if I run this way, then I shall be hated, and lose the love of my friends and relations, and of those that I expect benefit from, or have reliance on, and I shall be mocked of all my neighbours.
Answ. And if thou dost not, thou art sure to lose the love and favour of God and Christ, the benefit of heaven and glory, and be mocked of God for thy folly, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; and if thou wouldst not be hated and mocked, then take heed thou by thy folly dost not procure the displeasure and mockings of the great God; for his mocks and hatred will be terrible, because they will fall upon thee in terrible times, even when tribulation and anguish taketh hold on thee; which will be when death and judgment comes, when all the men in the earth, and all the angels in heaven, cannot help thee (Prov 1:26-28).
Object. But surely I may begin this time enough, a year or two hence, may I not?
Answ. 1. Hast thou any lease of thy life? Did ever God tell thee thou shalt live half a year, or two months longer? nay, it may be thou mayst not live so long. And therefore, 2. Wilt thou be so sottish and unwise, as to venture thy soul upon a little uncertain time? 3. Dost thou know whether the day of grace will last a week longer or no? For the day of grace is past with some before their life is ended: and if it should be so with thee, wouldst thou not say, O that I had begun to run before the day of grace had been past, and the gates of heaven shut against me. But, 4. If thou shouldst see any of thy neighbours neglect the making sure of either house or land to themselves, if they had it proffered to them, saying, Time enough hereafter, when the time is uncertain; and besides, they do not know whether ever it will be proffered to them again, or no: I say, Wouldst thou not then call them fools? And if so, then dost thou think that thou art a wise man to let thy immortal soul hang over hell by a thread of uncertain time, which may soon be cut asunder by death?
But to speak plainly, all these are the words of a slothful spirit. Arise man, be slothful no longer; set foot, and heart, and all into the way of God, and run, the crown is at the end of the race; there also standeth the loving fore-runner, even Jesus, who hath prepared heavenly provision to make thy soul welcome, and he will give it thee with a willinger heart than ever thou canst desire it of him. O therefore do not delay the time any longer, but put into practice the words of the men of Dan to their brethren, after they had seen the goodness of the land of Canaan: Arise, say they, &c., for we have seen the land, and behold it is very good; and are ye still, or do you forbear running? Be not slothful to go, and to enter to possess the land (Judg 18:9). Farewell.
I wish our souls may meet with comfort at the journey's end.
http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Heavenly.Footman/An.Epistle.html
Friends,
Solomon saith, that The desire of the slothful killeth him; and if so, what will slothfulness itself do to those that entertain it? (Prov 21:25). The proverb is, He that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame (Prov 10:5). And this I dare be bold to say, no greater shame can befall a man, than to see that he hath fooled away his soul, and sinned away eternal life. And I am sure this is the next way to do it; namely, to be slothful; slothful, I say, in the work of salvation. The vineyard of the slothful man, in reference to the things of this life, is not fuller of briars, nettles, and stinking weeds, than he that is slothful for heaven, hath his heart full of heart-choaking and soul-damning sin.
Slothfulness hath these two evils: First, To neglect the time in which it should be getting of heaven; and by that means doth, in the Second place, bring in untimely repentance. I will warrant you, that he who shall lose his soul in this world through slothfulness, will have no cause to be glad thereat when he comes to hell.
Slothfulness is usually accompanied with carelessness, and carelessness is for the most part begotten by senselessness; and senselessness doth again put fresh strength into slothfulness, and by this means the soul is left remediless.
Slothfulness shutteth out Christ; slothfulness shameth the soul (Cant 5:2-4; Prov 13:4).
Slothfulness, it is condemned even by the feeblest of all the creatures. Go to the ant, thou sluggard, consider her ways and be wise (Prov 6:6). The sluggard will not plow by reason of the cold (20:4); that is, he will not break up the fallow ground of his heart, because there must be some pains taken by him that will do it; therefore shall he beg in harvest, that is, when the saints of God shall have their glorious heaven and happiness given to them; but the sluggard shall have nothing, that is, be never the better for his crying for mercy, according to that in Matthew 25:10-12.
If you would know a sluggard in the things of heaven, compare him with one that is slothful in the things of this world. As, 1. He that is slothful is loth to set about the work he should follow: so is he that is slothful for heaven. 2. He that is slothful is one that is willing to make delays: so is he that is slothful for heaven. 3. He that is a sluggard, any small matter that cometh in between, he will make it a sufficient excuse to keep him off from plying his work: so it is also with him that is slothful for heaven. 4. He that is slothful doth his work by the halves; and so it is with him that is slothful for heaven. He may almost, but he shall never altogether obtain perfection of deliverance from hell; he may almost, but he shall never, without he mend, be altogether a saint. 5. They that are slothful, do usually lose the season in which things are to be done: and thus it is also with them that are slothful for heaven, they miss the season of grace. And therefore, 6. They that are slothful have seldom or never good fruit: so also it will be with the soul-sluggard. 7. They that are slothful they are chid for the same: so also will Christ deal with those that are not active for him. Thou wicked or slothful servant, out of thine own mouth will I judge thee; thou saidst I was thus, and thus, wherefore then gavest not thou my money to the bank? &c. (Luke 19:22). Take the unprofitable servant, and cast him into utter darkness, where shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:26-30).
WHAT SHALL I SAY? Time runs; and will you be slothful? Much of your lives are past; and will you be slothful? Your souls are worth a thousand worlds; and will you be slothful? The day of death and judgment is at the door; and will you be slothful? The curse of God hangs over your heads; and will you be slothful? Besides, the devils are earnest, laborious, and seek by all means every day, by every sin, to keep you out of heaven, and hinder you of salvation; and will you be slothful? Also your neighbours are diligent for things that will perish; and will you be slothful for things that will endure for ever? Would you be willing to be damned for slothfulness? Would you be willing the angels of God should neglect to fetch your souls away to heaven when you lie a-dying, and the devils stand by ready to scramble for them? Was Christ slothful in the work of your redemption? Are his ministers slothful in tendering this unto you? And, lastly, If all this will not move, I tell you God will not be slothful or negligent to damn you, whose damnation now of a long time slumbereth not, nor the devils will not neglect to fetch thee, nor hell neglect to shut it's mouth upon thee.
Sluggard, art thou asleep still? art thou resolved to sleep the sleep of death? Wilt neither tidings from heaven or hell awake thee? Wilt thou say still, Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, and a little folding of the hands to sleep? (Prov 6:10). Wilt thou yet turn thyself in thy sloth, as the door is turned upon the hinges? O that I was one that was skillful in lamentation, and had but a yearning heart towards thee, how would I pity thee! How would I bemoan thee! O that I could with Jeremiah let my eyes run down with rivers of water for thee! Poor soul, lost soul, dying soul, what a hard heart have I that I cannot mourn for thee! If thou shouldst lose but a limb, a child, or a friend, it would not be so much, but poor man it is THY SOUL; if it was to lie in hell but for a day, but for a year, nay, ten thousand years, it would (in comparison) be nothing. But O it is for ever! O this cutting EVER! What a soul-amazing word will that be, which saith, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire! &c.
Object. But if I should set in, and run as you would have me, then I must run from all my friends; for none of them are running that way.
Answ. And if thou dost, thou wilt run into the bosom of Christ and of God, and then what harm will that do thee?
Object. But if I run this way, then I must run from all my sins.
Answ. That is true indeed; yet if thou dost not, thou wilt run into hell-fire.
Object. But if I run this way, then I shall be hated, and lose the love of my friends and relations, and of those that I expect benefit from, or have reliance on, and I shall be mocked of all my neighbours.
Answ. And if thou dost not, thou art sure to lose the love and favour of God and Christ, the benefit of heaven and glory, and be mocked of God for thy folly, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; and if thou wouldst not be hated and mocked, then take heed thou by thy folly dost not procure the displeasure and mockings of the great God; for his mocks and hatred will be terrible, because they will fall upon thee in terrible times, even when tribulation and anguish taketh hold on thee; which will be when death and judgment comes, when all the men in the earth, and all the angels in heaven, cannot help thee (Prov 1:26-28).
Object. But surely I may begin this time enough, a year or two hence, may I not?
Answ. 1. Hast thou any lease of thy life? Did ever God tell thee thou shalt live half a year, or two months longer? nay, it may be thou mayst not live so long. And therefore, 2. Wilt thou be so sottish and unwise, as to venture thy soul upon a little uncertain time? 3. Dost thou know whether the day of grace will last a week longer or no? For the day of grace is past with some before their life is ended: and if it should be so with thee, wouldst thou not say, O that I had begun to run before the day of grace had been past, and the gates of heaven shut against me. But, 4. If thou shouldst see any of thy neighbours neglect the making sure of either house or land to themselves, if they had it proffered to them, saying, Time enough hereafter, when the time is uncertain; and besides, they do not know whether ever it will be proffered to them again, or no: I say, Wouldst thou not then call them fools? And if so, then dost thou think that thou art a wise man to let thy immortal soul hang over hell by a thread of uncertain time, which may soon be cut asunder by death?
But to speak plainly, all these are the words of a slothful spirit. Arise man, be slothful no longer; set foot, and heart, and all into the way of God, and run, the crown is at the end of the race; there also standeth the loving fore-runner, even Jesus, who hath prepared heavenly provision to make thy soul welcome, and he will give it thee with a willinger heart than ever thou canst desire it of him. O therefore do not delay the time any longer, but put into practice the words of the men of Dan to their brethren, after they had seen the goodness of the land of Canaan: Arise, say they, &c., for we have seen the land, and behold it is very good; and are ye still, or do you forbear running? Be not slothful to go, and to enter to possess the land (Judg 18:9). Farewell.
I wish our souls may meet with comfort at the journey's end.
http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Heavenly.Footman/An.Epistle.html
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FreeGrace2
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The several examples you gave actually PROVE my claim that election is to service.
I never made such a claim. This is manufactured.
Nice reformed talking point. Now, please, provide any verse that says one is elected to salvation. Or that salvation is by election. That's the ONLY WAY to support the reformed doctrine of election.
But, as we all know, there aren't any such verses.
How does this relate to election?
In fact, he is also one of my examples, from John 6:70.
You see, I CAN provide verses that support my claim.
Because no one is elected to salvation. Yes, everyone is invited to salvation.
Are you aware that "call" and "elect" are different words and have different meanings, or not?
I never suggested otherwise. It's your obsession that election involves one's eternal destiny, not mine.
Nonsense. Judas supports my claim that election, to WHOMEVER is elected/chosen, is to service. Some of the "elect" are believers, and some are NOT believers.
It's a mystery to me how anyone would miss that vital point in my thread's OP.
Oh no! Do mind it. Mind the fact that election involves both believers and unbelievers, as ALL of my examples show from Scripture.
Because there are zero verses about being elected to salvation. That is a manufactured doctrine, unsupported from Scripture.
And none of your posts have yet to provide any verse that says one is elected to salvation.
Please provide the verse that SAYS one is elected to salvation.
And your point is??? The phrase "election of God" ONLY shows that Paul's audience were elect. The purpose isn't stated. So some people just manufacture the purpose in their own minds.
Where did he say they were "elected to salvation"?
You keep making this claim, yet you've provided no evidence for your claims.
Really? He sure made the point that his own election was to service:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man
Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—
1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.
1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.[/QUOTE]
So, you see, Paul was God's "chosen instrument", an instrument OF SERVICE. And Paul's own description of his being chosen was "appointed to His service" (1 Tim 1:12), "the church's servant by the "commission of God" (Col 1:25).
In Acts 26:16, Paul's own testimony regarding his experience on the Damascus road indicated that he was appointed a SERVANT.
What does a servant do? They SERVE. That's their SERVICE.
For those who read the Bible without external biases, there is no controversy. Election is to service, whether as a believer, or unbeliever.
What is apparent is that there are no verses that speak of anyone being elected to salvation. That's where the whole problem lies.
Please prove (show evidence) this with Scripture that says this.
Where is faith described as a gift? Eph 2:8 doesn't. The "it" in "it is a gift of God" refers back to salvation.
In Eph 1:4, He certainly DOES. The "us" in that verse refer to believers, as Eph 1:19 plainly indicates:
" and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength"
There is no reason to assume that the "us" in 1:4 is somehow different than the "us" in 1:19.
This claim of being elected to salvation has yet to be shown from Scripture.
All your talking points don't prove anything.
Another talking point. Where are the facts?
Again, none of these verses say that one is elected to salvation. In fact, they all are about love. Not salvation. And not election.
You can fill up a post with a lot of verses, but you've given no evidence at all for election to salvation.
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FreeGrace2
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One more verse for iconbuster:
1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen (elected) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
There it is, plain as day. 'who have been chosen or elected to be obedient to Jesus Christ'. This is about service.
Also note this election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God'.
Yet, the reformed doctrine denies that election is based on foreknowledge. It's unconditional.
1 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen (elected) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
There it is, plain as day. 'who have been chosen or elected to be obedient to Jesus Christ'. This is about service.
Also note this election is 'according to the foreknowledge of God'.
Yet, the reformed doctrine denies that election is based on foreknowledge. It's unconditional.
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No way.
What 'service' does God call the unsaved to?
An unbeliever or someone who is not saved cannot even please God.
Please explain and include scripture to show this, because I do not believe there is any.
If this is your theology, it is in complete error and I'd like to help you.
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