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Why I dislike Calvinism

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by rockytopva, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    I worked with three ladies in my factory making samples. These ladies were all Baptist, cheerful, decent, and I would not doubt if they were to tell me they were eternally saved, especially as I don't see it in their character. And this was also true of the old people in the Baptist church I was brought up in.

    And then my generation came along.

    In the Baptist church I was brought up in we had a large youth group and all the adults thought of them as angels and good saved Christians. That was until someone busted them in one of their dope smoking parties. I also met a lady who is in her fifties as well as I. This lady was Baptist, single, never married, and I thought we were the perfect fit... But the more that woman talked... Come to find out that she sees nothing wrong with the party or sex scene. I finally, after enduring much talk on carnality, said to her, "You know I don't believe you can do those things and get to heaven." Almost immediately she replies, "Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

    Of all the young people I know growing up not a one of them shows any fruit of Christianity. The matters of eternal significance are the furthest thing from their carnal mind. I believe that the Lord also takes issues with this...

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

    And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

    This is my main gripe against Calvinism, and that is it gives people a false sense of eternal security. This is a race to be run and not a destination at some point of doctrinal sense.
     
  2. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    Our weekly Calvinism bashing begins. ;)
     
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would distinguish Calvinism as kind of a fine tuning on the doctrine of eternal security. I have some good friends here who are Calvinists, so I don't want to speak as if I were being disrespectful. But at the same time, I do likewise view OSAS as an evil and deceptive doctrine, given the number of souls that may end up in Hell because of it.

    I believe it is specifically because of OSAS-oriented theologies that we now have even greater distortions of the truth being popularized, including the hyper-grace gospel. But I hate to oppose all the above because I know full well someone will be coming soon to tell me how deceived and mistaken I am. :doh:

    But in large part I agree with you. It's truly terrifying to think about what will become of some of them, especially those in ministry, when they find out how bad their torments are for having once faithfully served the Lord only to be seduced by the world into serving sin. :confused:
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster You turn on any of my crew, you turn on me. Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    I was starting to get worried.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster You turn on any of my crew, you turn on me. Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    If your story is correct, I see nothing in what they stated that reflects Reformed Theology.
     
  6. Eryk

    Eryk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Glass houses, Rocky. Every movement has its least common denominator and Pentecostalism has a history of scandals. This does not reflect on the average Pentecostal in the pew, or on you, brother. Before this thread heats up we're all going to cool our jets and remember that Jesus loves us all.
     
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  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

    20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. - Galatians 4

    Look into the church of Galatia. Paul had doubt of their salvation, and had the need to say that he travailed in birth again until Christ was formed again in them. And that he stood in doubt of their once true salvation.
     
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Sin is sin. If the Pentecostal movement has turned scandalous then it is a blight against them.

    If a man gives his life to ministry, and blows it at the end, all his good works will not be remembered and he will die in his sin...

    When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered. - Ezekiel 3:20
     
  9. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The people who service my lawn equipment are Catholic. I would not have issue with them boldly declaring themselves as eternally secure, as I don't see the otherwise in their character.
     
  10. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Remind me to start a thread about why I dislike people who start threads about why they dislike Calvinism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    And so it begins again.

    :sigh:

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    You know, what you have said could apply to anybody who "claims" to be Christian, but who are in fact not.

    Cf. the parable of the sower; and verses 21-32 of Mt. 7.

    And, if you'll search, rather than laying everything on Reformed Theology and Baptist Theology, seems to me I remember that the "P" in the T.U.L.I.P. outline was taught by a Catholic Bishop between 354-430 AD.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Rocky,
    What you said applies to all denominations and believes. Hypocrites are found everywhere. Instead of just pointing out the hypocrisy you might say: "That is interesting you feel that way and I would like to learn more about that idea, so could we have a Bible study together on the subject?"

    Some people just do not know what the Bible says on the subject, but it would be great if you could get them to decide what is right from their own study with your help. (one person at a time).
     
  14. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I believed on Christ in my early teens. It was as true a conversion and faith as one could hope for.

    I went to a non-"Calvinist" Baptist church where it was taught much like you teach above.

    I was a lusty young buck and many of my actions and much of my "thought life" reflected it. I thought that I was lost and then saved again every time I lapsed into sin. My life was pure Hell as I fell into sin and struggled my way back to the Lord through days and nights of self loathing and tears of repentance. It was the most miserable time I can remember in my life. I'm turning 72 in a few days. Believe me I've had many other miserable days and nights in my life. But none of them compare to that time.

    After a couple of years of that misery I remember quite consciously walking away from Christianity which soon ended me in a life of outright sin. I won't outline it here. But there aren't many sins I did not venture into.

    I don't believe I ever called myself an atheist. But for all practical purposes I was one and acted like it.

    The Lord, in His grace, dragged me back into the Kingdom and a belief in Him at around 30yrs. old through a series of events and the witness of solid Christians.

    The first thing I did when coming back to the Lord was endeavor to research correct doctrine concerning how a person gets saved and how a person stays saved. I have never wavered from the theology I developed in those first couple of years and thankfulness for His eternal love for me has kept me on a path of righteous living - although a journey which has often been one of 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

    Far from leading to a life of righteous living, your kind of teaching often leads to quite the opposite. Far from leading to a life of sin, eternal security often leads to quite the opposite. I am a living testimony to those truths.

    False beliefs and false teachings like yours cost me a decade and a half of my life in Christ.

    Do I hate you for it? No I do not. But I am very irritated every time I see one of you self righteous preachers of the law spout off here in the forum and elsewhere about things you know little about.

    P.S.
    Regarding the warning by Paul to the Galatians - that warning was issued to people who had fallen into or preached another gospel which required keeping the law as well as a true trust in the work of Jesus Christ for their salvation (which is no gospel at all - in the eyes of God).

    And, before you go off on some teaching about the law being only the Jewish law, the "law" for gentiles like the Galatians and I (and probably the majority of those reading along here) is related to keeping a clean conscience before God and not any law written on stone.

    As important as living a pure life is to our sanctification - it can never lead to or add to our salvation in the most basic sense.

    All men and women, Christian or not, will answer before God for every word and every deed they have done in this life. Living a pure life is extremely important to every Christian.

    But in the end God will wipe away every tear and we will spend eternity in His presence with absolutely no sense of condemnation.

    Regarding the teaching of Calvinists concerning living a life of overcoming - they do not teach anything close to the antinomianism you accuse them of.

    You need to bone up on your Reformed doctrine before you venture to critique it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Rocky, please know that Calvinism doesn't "own" eternal security. In fact, the teaching is found clearly in Scripture, even though those who believe salvation can be lost reject those clear verses, and offer vague verses, mostly those with figures of speech.

    When Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28, He really meant what He said. Previously in John's gospel, in 5:24, He said that those who believe HAVE, as in currently possess, eternal life.

    So, from Jn 5:24, we know WHEN one possesses eternal life; at the moment of belief in Christ. And, from Jn 10:28, we know that from that moment when one believes in Christ, is given eternal life, and shall never perish.

    It could not be stated any more clear than that.

    Jesus promises eternal security to those who believe in Him.

    To believe in loss of salvation is to directly disbelieve what Jesus said.
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    I was brought up Baptist and participated in all the activities. I have been to many youth retreats, camps, hiking adventures, revivals, conferences, and the like. I also feel a Christian bond with the Baptist members that are 60 years old and older, and always have.

    But with my generation, it is like it is totally something else. I believe in the churches as seven,

    Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
    Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
    Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
    Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
    Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
    Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
    Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

    It is almost like there is a divide among the young and old, almost as if they are of another church congregation. I like the old services where a minister would preach with an unction and a conviction followed by an altar service where everyone on go for prayer.
    [​IMG]

    In my old Baptist church, in the 70's, we had a revival of this nature and I made a video of the old sermon that would bring the whole church to a point of repentance... From a cassette way back in the mid 70's...



    I believe we need more revivals that will bring people to the point of repentance where sinners and saints alike pray after the sermon. And if we don't see the fruits of Christian living we will tell you, no you don't have it yet, come back tomorrow night!
     
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    And the old Methodist service where the altar service was conducted after the sermon...

    Quoting the full testimony of George Clark Rankin...

    "Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me." -

    George Clark Rankin was then sent to Georgia after his grandfather could no longer care for him. With his belongings in a satchel he had a Colt's navy pistol of a large make. It was an old weapon, and what under the sun I wanted with it is a mystery to me to this good day. I reached the station in time to catch the eleven-o' clock train. I purchased my ticket and boarded the car for the first time in my life. I had one lone lorn fifty-cent piece left in my depleted purse, and that was the sum and substance of my finances for the rest of the trip. As the train whizzed along I looked first at the people and then through the window at the country and thought over my journey and what was to come of it. At nine o'clock we reached Dalton and disembarked. I had never been in a hotel. I saw one not far from the depot and went to it. I asked the clerk what he would charge me for a room that night and he said fifty cents. That was exactly my pile! I called for the accommodation, but before retiring I told him I wanted to leave very early the next morning for Spring Place and that I would pay him then, for no one would be up when I would leave. He smiled and took the silver half dollar. I went to my room, and solitude is no name for the room I occupied that night. After a while I fell into a sound sleep and awoke bright and early the next morning. It was not good daylight. I arose and hastened downstairs, and there sat the same clerk whom I had the night before it had never dawned on me that a hotel clerk sat up all night. I thanked him for his kindness and bade him good-bye in regular old country style.

    It was not long until I was in the road and making tracks across the country to where my uncle lived. It was in 1866 and the marks of Sherman's march to the sea were everywhere visible. The country was very much out of repair and all around Dalton the earth was marked with breastworks. Every hill showed signs of war. Much of the fencing had not been restored and here and there I could see blackened chimneys still standing. After I had gotten out a few miles I stopped and took that old pistol with its belt and scabbard out of my satchel and buckled the war paraphernalia around my person on the outside of my coat. Just why I did this I cannot explain. I must have looked a caution in my homespun suit and rural air trudging along that highway with that old army pistol fastened around me. In going down a hill toward a ravine from which there was another hill in front of me I met two men horseback. They spoke to me and eyed me very curiously, but, strange to say, I could not tell why. Why would not men eye such a looking war arsenal as that? There were two others riding down the hill in front of me, and as the first two passed me they stopped and looked back at the others and shouted: "Lookout, boys, he is loaded!"

    [​IMG]
    In the course of an hour I was at my uncle's. He was surprised to see me, but gave me a cordial welcome. The first thing he did was to disarm me, and that ended my pistol-toting. I have never had one about my person or home to this good day. And I never will understand just why I had that one. A good dinner refreshed me and I soon unfolded my plans and they were satisfactory to my kind-hearted kinsman. He was in the midst of cotton-picking and that afternoon I went to the field and, with a long sack about my waist, had my first experience in the cottonfield. We then would get ready for the revival occurring that night…

    After the team had been fed and we had been to supper we put the mules to the wagon, filled it with chairs and we were off to the meeting. When we reached the locality it was about dark and the people were assembling. Their horses and wagons filled up the cleared spaces and the singing was already in progress. My uncle and his family went well up toward the front, but I dropped into a seat well to the rear. It was an old-fashioned Church, ancient in appearance, oblong in shape and unpretentious. It was situated in a grove about one hundred yards from the road. It was lighted with old tallow-dip candles furnished by the neighbors. It was not a prepossessing-looking place, but it was soon crowded and evidently there was a great deal of interest. A cadaverous-looking man stood up in front with a tuning fork and raised and led the songs. There were a few prayers and the minister came in with his saddlebags and entered the pulpit. He was the Rev. W. H. Heath, the circuit rider. His prayer impressed me with his earnestness and there were many amens to it in the audience. I do not remember his text, but it was a typical revival sermon, full of unction and power.

    At its close he invited penitents to the altar and a great many young people flocked to it and bowed for prayer. Many of them became very much affected and they cried out distressingly for mercy. It had a strange effect on me. It made me nervous and I wanted to retire. Directly my uncle came back to me, put his arm around my shoulder and asked me if I did not want to be religious. I told him that I had always had that desire, that mother had brought me up that way, and really I did not know anything else. Then he wanted to know if I had ever professed religion. I hardly understood what he meant and did not answer him. He changed his question and asked me if I had ever been to the altar for prayer, and I answered him in the negative. Then he earnestly besought me to let him take me up to the altar and join the others in being prayed for. It really embarrassed me and I hardly knew what to say to him. He spoke to me of my mother and said that when she was a little girl she went to the altar and that Christ accepted her and she had been a good Christian all these years. That touched me in a tender spot, for mother always did do what was right; and then I was far away from her and wanted to see her. Oh, if she were there to tell me what to do!

    By and by I yielded to his entreaty and he led forward to the altar. The minister took me by the hand and spoke tenderly to me as I knelt at the altar. I had gone more out of sympathy than conviction, and I did not know what to do after I bowed there. The others were praying aloud and now and then one would rise shoutingly happy and make the old building ring with his glad praise. It was a novel experience to me. I did not know what to pray for, neither did I know what to expect if I did pray. I spent the most of the hour wondering why I was there and what it all meant. No one explained anything to me. Once in awhile some good old brother or sister would pass my way, strike me on the back and tell me to look up and believe and the blessing would come. But that was not encouraging to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense and the noise was distracting me. Even in my crude way of thinking I had an idea that religion was a sensible thing and that people ought to become religious intelligently and without all that hurrah. I presume that my ideas were the result of the Presbyterian training given to me by old grandfather. By and by my knees grew tired and the skin was nearly rubbed off my elbows. I thought the service never would close, and when it did conclude with the benediction I heaved a sigh of relief. That was my first experience at the mourner's bench.

    As we drove home I did not have much to say, but I listened attentively to the conversation between my uncle and his wife. They were greatly impressed with the meeting, and they spoke first of this one and that one who had "come through" and what a change it would make in the community, as many of them were bad boys. As we were putting up the team my uncle spoke very encouragingly to me; he was delighted with the step I had taken and he pleaded with me not to turn back, but to press on until I found the pearl of great price. He knew my mother would be very happy over the start I had made. Before going to sleep I fell into a train of thought, though I was tired and exhausted. I wondered why I had gone to that altar and what I had gained by it. I felt no special conviction and had received no special impression, but then if my mother had started that way there must be something in it, for she always did what was right. I silently lifted my heart to God in prayer for conviction and guidance. I knew how to pray, for I had come up through prayer, but not the mourner's bench sort. So I determined to continue to attend the meeting and keep on going to the altar until I got religion.

    Early the next morning I was up and in a serious frame of mind. I went with the other hands to the cottonfield and at noon I slipped off in the barn and prayed. But the more I thought of the way those young people were moved in the meeting and with what glad hearts they had shouted their praises to God the more it puzzled and confused me. I could not feel the conviction that they had and my heart did not feel melted and tender. I was callous and unmoved in feeling and my distress on account of sin was nothing like theirs. I did not understand my own state of mind and heart. It troubled me, for by this time I really wanted to have an experience like theirs.

    When evening came I was ready for Church service and was glad to go. It required no urging. Another large crowd was present and the preacher was as earnest as ever. I did not give much heed to the sermon. In fact, I do not recall a word of it. I was anxious for him to conclude and give me a chance to go to the altar. I had gotten it into my head that there was some real virtue in the mourner's bench; and when the time came I was one of the first to prostrate myself before the altar in prayer. Many others did likewise. Two or three good people at intervals knelt by me and spoke encouragingly to me, but they did not help me. Their talks were mere exhortations to earnestness and faith, but there was no explanation of faith, neither was there any light thrown upon my mind and heart. I wrought myself up into tears and cries for help, but the whole situation was dark and I hardly knew why I cried, or what was the trouble with me. Now and then others would arise from the altar in an ecstasy of joy, but there was no joy for me. When the service closed I was discouraged and felt that maybe I was too hardhearted and the good Spirit could do nothing for me.

    After we went home I tossed on the bed before going to sleep and wondered why God did not do for me what he had done for mother and what he was doing in that meeting for those young people at the altar. I could not understand it. But I resolved to keep on trying, and so dropped off to sleep. The next day I had about the same experience and at night saw no change in my condition. And so for several nights I repeated the same distressing experience. The meeting took on such interest that a day service was adopted along with the night exercises, and we attended that also. And one morning while I bowed at the altar in a very disturbed state of mind Brother Tyson, a good local preacher and the father of Rev. J. F. Tyson, now of the Central Conference, sat down by me and, putting his hand on my shoulder, said to me: "Now I want you to sit up awhile and let's talk this matter over quietly. I am sure that you are in earnest, for you have been coming to this altar night after night for several days. I want to ask you a few simple questions." And the following questions were asked and answered:

    "My son, do you not love God?"

    "I cannot remember when I did not love him."

    "Do you believe on his Son, Jesus Christ?"

    "I have always believed on Christ. My mother taught me that from my earliest recollection."

    "Do you accept him as your Savior?"

    "I certainly do, and have always done so."

    "Can you think of any sin that is between you and the Savior?"

    "No, sir; for I have never committed any bad sins."

    "Do you love everybody?"

    "Well, I love nearly everybody, but I have no ill-will toward any one. An old man did me a wrong not long ago and I acted ugly toward him, but I do not care to injure him."

    "Can you forgive him?"

    "Yes, if he wanted me to."

    "But, down in your heart, can you wish him well?"

    "Yes, sir; I can do that."

    "Well, now let me say to you that if you love God, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin and if you love your fellowmen and intend by God's help to lead a religious life, that's all there is to religion. In fact, that is all I know about it."

    Then he repeated several passages of Scriptures to me proving his assertions. I thought a moment and said to him: "But I do not feel like these young people who have been getting religion night after night. I cannot get happy like them. I do not feel like shouting."

    The good man looked at me and smiled and said: "Ah, that's your trouble. You have been trying to feel like them. Now you are not them; you are yourself. You have your own quiet disposition and you are not turned like them. They are excitable and blustery like they are. They give way to their feelings. That's all right, but feeling is not religion. Religion is faith and life. If you have violent feeling with it, all good and well, but if you have faith and not much feeling, why the feeling will take care of itself. To love God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, turning away from all sin, and living a godly life, is the substance of true religion."

    That was new to me, yet it had been my state of mind from childhood. For I remembered that away back in my early life, when the old preacher held services in my grandmother's house one day and opened the door of the Church, I went forward and gave him my hand. He was to receive me into full membership at the end of six months' probation, but he let it pass out of his mind and failed to attend to it.

    As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

    I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.
     
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    A revival for the masses does bring "followers on", but these are often like the masses that followed Jesus which turn on a dime. More one on one studies with thought-out commitments that last and are active seems to work better.
     
  19. shakewell

    shakewell Active Member

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    That sounds more like a gripe with OSAS, not calvinism.
    All calvinists are OSAS but not all OSAS are calvinists.
     
  20. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Some things never change... do you want to build a straw man??
     
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